Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 187

Mon, 19 May 2008

• 1. Pesach Sheini (David E Cohen)
• 2. haaramah (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Fwd: Bechukosai "Singular or Plural, Continuation or Pause, It Still is What it Is!" (Cantor Wolberg)
• 4. Prozbul (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: Pesach Sheini (Ari Z. Zivotofsky)
• 6. Seeking a nice dvar Torah for Shabbos? (SBA)
• 7. Re: Haarama (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: [Areivim] Counting the Omer with a Lamud or a Bais (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 9. Darkhei Limmud (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: haaramah (Michael Makovi)
• 11. Re: Darkhei Limmud (Richard Wolpoe)

If Mashiach were to come between 14 Nisan and 14 Iyar, would everybody bring
the pesach sheini that year?

My understanding is that we would not.  From the case that's dealt with on
the bottom of Pesachim 90a (brought in Hilkhos Korban Pesach 7:4), we seem
to have an ironclad rule that nobody brings pesach sheini unless a majority
of the tzibbur brought pesach rishon that year.

This morning, however, I happened to be glancing through the Chabad "Devar
Malkhus" pamphlet, which had a transcript of a conversation that the
Lubavitcher Rebbe zt"l had with R' Avraham Shapira zt"l and R' Mordekhai
Eliyahu yblct"a when they visited him.  One of them said something along the
lines of "if Mashiach comes before Pesach Sheini, and the Rebbe comes to
Eretz Yisra'el to bring the korban pesach..."

I haven't been able to find anywhere where this question is discussed
explicitly.  Can anybody point me in the direction of somewhere where it is
discussed?

--D.C.

<This led to discussion of heter iska and changing nature of borrowing
(providential loan to capital formation)

Question. Where would pruzbol fit into this classification scheme?  Are
there any other classification schemes?  There are other obvious
interesting implications this year but I'd rather stick to the
classification issue for now.>

RAL once characterized prozbul as Hillel crying or sighing while having
to make a necessary takanah. I assume he would also call heter iska
a necessary evil.
ie ideally we should lend without interest. Given the facts of a commercial
economy we do what is necessary.

In a slightly different vein I have never understood heter iska when there is no
business involved, eg taking out a loan to finance a mortgage or a car loan
or even to go on vacation. According to this classification is this
still something positive?

-- 
Eli Turkel

>> The Gemara explains that the Tochecha in Bechukosai was given in  
>> the plural form and Moshe relayed them "Mipi Hagevurah", with a  
>> direct transmission from God. The Tochecha in Ki Savo was given in  
>> the singular form and Moshe stated them on his own, "Mipi Atzmo".   
>> Tosfos (famous commentary) immediately comments that Mipi Atzmo  
>> means that they were given through Ruach Hakodesh (Holy inspiration).
>> Rabbi Schneerson, zt"l, asked why we distinguish between parts of  
>> the Torah to say that this part came from Pi Hagevurah (from God  
>> directly) while this part came from Pi Moshe (on his own)?  ALL of  
>> Torah is Mipi Hagevurah, divinely given by God, so why the  
>> distinction within the Tochecha ?
>> Rabbi Schneerson explained that in the Tochecha in Bechukosai,  
>> Moshe was given the Berachos Ukelalos as the representative, as  
>> well as a member of the Jewish people. Moshe's role was that of a  
>> messenger to transmit the message from God to the Children of  
>> Israel. Hence, the plural form is used to include all of the  
>> Children of Israel.
>> In Ki Savo, God wanted Moshe to speak to the people using Moses'  
>> own name and warn them of the consequences of their actions if they  
>> do not follow God?s Torah. However, in both Bechukosai and Ki Savo,  
>> the Berachos Ukelalos (blessings and curses) were determined and  
>> ordained by God.
>> There is the famous, touching story of the ten year old boy (Dov  
>> Ber, later to become the Mitteler Rebbe), the son of a world famous  
>> author and lecturer, Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi. Rabbi Zalman, a  
>> true tzaddik, always read the Torah, including the Tochacha -- the  
>> vivid curses. One year the tzaddik was sick and unable to read the  
>> Tochacha: someone else read the Torah in his place. The little boy  
>> heard theTochacha being read and he fainted. When he returned home  
>> and told his mother what happened, she asked him why the Tochacha  
>> affected him so deeply -- "don't you hear it every year?" "Yes,"  
>> replied Dov Ber, "But every year, papa reads the Tochacha, and when  
>> he reads it, I hear only blessings." (Needless to say, the little  
>> boy was soon recognized as a tzaddik in his own right.)

      Kol tuv,
      ri
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"In an ideal world, we wouldn't have prozbul; the rich would lend to
the poor without fear of the impending shemitta."

This comment brings up an interesting theological question. If the  
above is the case, then why did God legislate it to begin with?
In other words, the prozbul could have been built into the torah.

On page 139-141 of Yagdil Torah the pevious Lubavitcher Rebbe discusses 
this topic.


David E Cohen wrote:

>If Mashiach were to come between 14 Nisan and 14 Iyar, would everybody bring
>the pesach sheini that year?
>
>My understanding is that we would not.  From the case that's dealt with on
>the bottom of Pesachim 90a (brought in Hilkhos Korban Pesach 7:4), we seem
>to have an ironclad rule that nobody brings pesach sheini unless a majority
>of the tzibbur brought pesach rishon that year.
>
>This morning, however, I happened to be glancing through the Chabad "Devar
>Malkhus" pamphlet, which had a transcript of a conversation that the
>Lubavitcher Rebbe zt"l had with R' Avraham Shapira zt"l and R' Mordekhai
>Eliyahu yblct"a when they visited him.  One of them said something along the
>lines of "if Mashiach comes before Pesach Sheini, and the Rebbe comes to
>Eretz Yisra'el to bring the korban pesach..."
>
>I haven't been able to find anywhere where this question is discussed
>explicitly.  Can anybody point me in the direction of somewhere where it is
>discussed?
>
>--D.C.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Avodah mailing list
>Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
>http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
>
>  
>

Some brought to my attention that the Or HaChaim hakodosh has 42 pshotim for
"Im Bechukosai Selechi" - at the beginning of this week's parsha.

I had a look, and indeed there it is (mostly short) and very nice and
repeatable material.

Ayen shom vetimtze nachas...

SBA

Rich, Joel wrote:

> Question. Where would pruzbol fit into this classification scheme?  Are 
> there any other classification schemes?  There are other obvious 
> interesting implications this year but I'd rather stick to the 
> classification issue for now.

Tosfos in Gittin explains that this is exactly what it means that Hillel
relied on the fact that shmitta bizman hazeh is derabbanan.  Not that
the haarama of pruzbul wouldn't have worked when shmita was deoraita,
but that had it been deoraita he would never have endorsed this haarama
to get around it.  But in his days, as in ours, it was derabbanan, and
yet no reputable BD would have anything to do with this haarama until
Hillel saw the necessity, and decided that the Rabbanan would never
have wanted their takana to lead to such results, so he endorsed the
pruzbul.


Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> In a slightly different vein I have never understood heter iska when
> there is no business involved, eg taking out a loan to finance a
> mortgage or a car loan or even to go on vacation.

The term "heter iska" nowadays is used for all arrangements that get
around the prohibition on ribbit regardless of whether it involves
an actual iska.  There are many much simpler arrangements that don't
involve an iska, and which earlier generations simply didn't think of.


> According to this classification is this still something positive?

Yes, so long as the money being lent would not otherwise have been
used for gemach or tzedaka.  If someone has money that they intend
to use for business, to earn money for himself, then without a way
around the ribbit laws he must simply decline to give this money
to a Jew, and must instead invest it with a goy.  How can that be
a good thing?  Who benefits from that?  A "heter iska" allows him to
do business with a yid instead, helping him not in the role of
tzedaka or chesed but as a normal business transaction, which thus
helps his self-esteem.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

R' YL (on Areivim):
> Whenever I hear someone count the Omer with a Lamud, I ask, "How do
> you refer to the 33rd day?" The reply always is "Lag B'Omer." I then
> say, "Doesn't this prove that one should count with a Bais?"  >:-}

The Torah Temimah (Mekor Baruch on Tefillah) brings the same proof.
 
> For the record, years ago I knew a fellow who counted with a Lamud
> and also referred to the 33rd day as Lag L'Omer.

Shibolei Haleket (Hilchos Sefiras HaOmer, 235) calls the day Lag L'Omer.

(Agav, he says that one should say L'Omer, but puts it at the beginning of
the sentence: Hayom L'Omer Yom Echad, and so on.)

KT,
MYG

On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Moshe Y. Gluck <mgluck@gmail.com>
wrote to Areivim:
> What are the modern ways of learning Gemara?

To which RJJBaker <thanbo@gmail.com> added to the list on Mon, 19 May
2008 11:48:14 EDT:
> or, similarly, R' Wieder's textual-comparative method (use the parallel
> texts in Tosefta, Yerushalmi, Midrashim to clarify the gemara)

I don't think this is particularly modern. With the exception of
comparison of girsa'os, using new girsa'os found by Chokhmas Yisrael,
comparisons of the sort RJJB discusses were common. Until Brisker
Derekh crowded them out.

It's an element of the derekh halimmud proposed by RAEK in
<http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/beyt/16.doc>

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> In a slightly different vein I have never understood heter iska when there is no
> business involved, eg taking out a loan to finance a mortgage or a car loan
> or even to go on vacation. According to this classification is this
> still something positive?
>
> --
> Eli Turkel

In The Humanity of Jewish Law by Dayan M. S. Lew, it is pointed out
that the prozbul and heter iska were not only for the sake of the
general continued operation of the economy (although that is a large
consideration), nor was it only for the sake of preventing (via
loophole) an averah by the lenders (although that too was a large
consideration).

A third major consideration was in play: were the prozbul and heter
iska not available, the rich creditors simply wouldn't lend, period.
Who would lose out? The poor.

End of Dayan Lew. Now me:

Without heter iska, the rich would live in houses and drive cars,
while the middle and lower classes would never be able to afford
either in a lump sum; and without any credit, they'd have to live in
huts and drive bicycles. It seems to me, based on Dayan Lew's logic,
that heter iska ought to be extended to houses and cars and such, not
for the sake of the banks, but rather for the sake of the common man.

Otherwise, a law (viz. the prohibition of interest) designed to
benefit the commoner (by prohibiting an increase on his debt) would in
actuality be to his detriment.

Mikha'el Makovi

On Mon, May 19, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
> I don't think this is particularly modern. With the exception of
> comparison of girsa'os, using new girsa'os found by Chokhmas Yisrael,
> comparisons of the sort RJJB discusses were common. Until Brisker
> Derekh crowded them out.
>
> It's an element of the derekh halimmud proposed by RAEK in
> <http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/beyt/16.doc>
>
> SheTir'u baTov!
> -micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger
>

Even the work on varying girsaos is quite an old business, and the chochmas
Yisroel people have no monopoly on this stuff.

I am doing Pirkei R. Eliezer and teh Eshkol edition has a peirush that
shows  from Hanoch to Noach [re: sod ho'ibbur]   is  missing a generation
and goes into an entire  girsa dissertation.

Rashi/Tosafos/Bach/Gra/Ya'vetz/Reshash to name a few were very involved in
girsa 'fixing" Rambam reportedly wsinto girsa "sifting" and apparently
chekced out varying girsaos for Talmud and I would assume Mishna also.  The
Kafich edition of Rambam's Mishnayos is based upon the Rambam's own ksav yad
as much as possible.


Much of the modern girsaos stuff on the Rambam's Mishneh Torah is largely
based upon Teimani Tradtional texts and not on Wissenshaft

AIUI, Rabinozitz of Dikdukei Soferim on the Talmud was not a follower of
Chochmas Yisroel either, but I may be wrong on this one.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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