Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 181

Tue, 13 May 2008

• 1. Showing affection to children in beit k'nesset (Simon Montagu)
• 2. Re: Olam Haba is static (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 3. Re: Showing affection to children in beit k'nesset (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Weekly Mishlei (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Rabbi Michael Rosensweig - Kedoshim Tihiyu: The Obligation to Internalize Halachic Values and Adopt a Halachic World View (Micha Berger)
• 6. Dancing on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Education - was RAYK and the end of chol (T613K@aol.com)
• 8. Re: Education - was RAYK and the end of chol (Micha Berger)
• 9. Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous (Yitzchok Levine)
• 10. KEDUSHA GENERATION (Cantor Wolberg)

The article that RSBA linked to in the thread "Tzelem
beHeichal"http://tinyurl.com/4td899says:

"We aren't allowed to show affection to our very own children in a *beis
haknesses*, for our affection and reverence must be focused on Hashem."

I was not previously aware of this halacha. What is the source? In the batei
k'nesset that I attend it seems to be universal practice that fathers cover
their children with their tallit during birkat kohanim and kiss them
afterwards. Is that an exception to the rule or a minhag shtut?
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Ramchal, /Kelalim Rishonim/ #10:
???? ?????? ???? ?????, ?? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? 
?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???.

YGB

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 11:21:39AM -0400, T613K@aol.com wrote:
> : My understanding of this pasuk may be simple-minded but to me it just seems 
> : so obvious that this pasuk is talking about olam hazeh. In this world, once 
> : a person is dead, his body -- the part of him that's dead -- can no longer 
> : praise Hashem (or do anything). The part of him that's alive is by definition 
> : not dead -- thus the neshama does not come under the category of "lo hameisim 
> : yehallelu Kah."
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I was not previously aware of this halacha. What is the source? In the
batei k'nesset that I attend it seems to be universal practice that
fathers cover their children with their tallit during birkat kohanim and
kiss them afterwards. Is that an exception to the rule or a minhag
shtut?
 ==============================================
See S"A O"C 98:1 (Rama- sfardim iirc kiss hands after an aliya )
KT
Joel Rich
 
BTW note comments on bringing youngins to shul in nosei keilim
======================================
BBTW note that the source is shut binyamin zev who in the same sentence
says not to argue over kibbudim!
KT
Joel
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A number of darshanim, eg Rabeinu Bachya/Bechayei, Rabbeinu Yonah,
started their derashos with a pasuq in Mishlei, and then followed the
thought to get to the parashah.

It was a style of sermonizing for a number of centuries.

Does anyone know of someone who collected pesuqim by parashah as used
by these rishonim? I think it would make an interesting limud in and of
itself.

(During my stint as Micha SHmuel ben Leah Yesharah [check those rashei
teivos as capitalized], I developed an attachment to seifer Mishlei.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 23rd day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            stifle others?

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 04:24:57PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
:> But they didn't take that slippery slope. They realized he was sui
:> generis. Yeish gevul.

: Who are tehe they

Catholic Israel. Who gives authority? The masses who observe3 halakhah
who choose to follow this rabbi over another.

: Zev SEro said SA harav is the same. Who says that list is exahastive
: one Rav told me he accepts RYBS reads of the Rambam over those of Bet
: Yosef.  is he right?

In terms of what -- he holds like RYBS's Rambam over the pesaq of MBY?
That would be wrong even according to RYBS, who notes that acceptance of
the SA as the point from which acharonic discussion originates was what
was almost entirely (with the above exceptions) nispasheit.

...
: > AISI, not so, as long as one is medaqdeiq that the hashkafah is used
: > only to choose between options actually supportable through textual
: > halachic process.

: So give me the sources for dancing on Shabbos against codified
: Mishna!...

The Rama (OCh 339:3) cites the Tosafos (Beitzah 30a "Tenan"). They are
meikil on the gezeirah of instruments, since no one tunes their own
instruments where they actually are tunable.

It's clear from the Rambam's formulation (Shaabos 32:4), who stresses
the connection implied in the mishnah -- the issur is against rhythm. We
discussed something similar in parshanus: there is indication that
mecholos is a kind of dancing, and another that it was an intrument. If
dancing, it's a dance that focusses on producing a rhythm with one's
feet. Don't tap dance.

Is that a weak justification? Yes. It would require strong support from
outside the textual formalism realm in order to become pesaq. But that's
different than, say:
: So it if FEELS good it is OK?  C's argue bring guitars to shul and get
: kabbalas Sahbbos to be more lively like kumsitz!

"FEELS good" is emotionally loaded way of phrasing it. Aggadita is not
just warm fuzzies. But bekhol zos.

C goes beyond Tosafos or any other rishon, abolishing the gezeirah
altogether on an instrument the performer usually does tune. The option
lacks that justifiability.

And, like we agreed earlier, there is a yir'as Shamayim difference
in deciding whether the motivation really is AYH between how the two
movements do things.

:                                         and  how about Sukkah on Shmini
: Atzeres?

Well, I wouldn't justify it, personally.

The Minchas Elazar reads the gemara: Yasiv yasvinan -- is it possible
we're supposed to sit in the Sukkah, umevorakh lo mevarkhinan -- at a
time when it's assur to say the berakhah?

: And if you are clear that you are right and I am not then let the slippery
: slope being. YOU might be satisfied that his process will not be abused, and
: I say it is inherently fuzzy and quite abusable!

Except we both know halakhah is fuzzy. That's not a criticism, that's
proof that the theory conforms to the experimental data! Yes, it's
dangerous: gesher tzar me'od.

The slippery slope is avoided because of the yir'as Hashem of the people
who are trying to follow ratzaon haBorei. Because we will only accept
poseqim who are actually trying to weigh things ased on trying to find
Ratzon haBorei, and not to seek personal ends (political, accomodating
zeitgeist, etc...)

You can continue to seek a hard-edged algorithmic version of halachic
process, but you won't succeed in finding one that fits how halakhah is
decided, nor explain the existence of gray areas at the edges of things.

:> Add to that that in our day, there is no dominant minhag avos to define
:> a minhag hamaqom, we are in the beginning of a process of congealing new
:> minhagei hamaqom in our new meqomos.

: I kinda accept that

:> I therefore feel it's an appropriate
:> time to give aggadah more weight than usual. :-)BBii!

: Makes no sense to me. It makes a fuzzier situatoin evn FUZZIER and MORE
: subjective and substituting FRUMKEIT for EHRLICHKEIT  We can now ply MORE
: games with texts and  pasken by emotiosn w/o sources because  it ulimtately
: leads to piety. this was the early Anti-nomian position of the Hassidim upon
: which the GRA put a herem!

The current situation is insuffiently fuzzy. It follows the books, with
no eye to other criteria -- minhag avos, AYH, nothing. And so we have
creaping chumraization among people who aren't any closer to being "erev
Shabbos Jews". /Something/ has to 

: AISI we live in a WESTERNIZED society in the USA.  We should use more
: obejctive and stricter Yekke style analysis of sources and get Halcha from a
: more fiar-minded Centrist shvil Hazahav with less lieralism and
: reactionariyism.

But Yekkish analysis isn't all book sources. That's Lithuania, post-AhS.
Yekkish analysis is the use of those books that support the general way
things have been done.

: That said, I do agree that paskening w/o any grounding in Midrash and
: Agagadah is a VERY bad thing. I have started mini-doses of Tanna devai
: Eliyahu [great hizzuk for me] Pireki R. Elizeze [over my head at times]

But why? You just argtued against its use, with no room left for any
role for aggadita!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 23rd day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            stifle others?

I just wrote in reply to RRW:
:: So give me the sources for dancing on Shabbos against codified
:: Mishna!...

: The Rama (OCh 339:3) cites the Tosafos (Beitzah 30a "Tenan"). They are
: meikil on the gezeirah of instruments, since no one tunes their own
: instruments where they actually are tunable.

: It's clear from the Rambam's formulation (Shaabos 32:4), who stresses
: the connection implied in the mishnah -- the issur is against rhythm. We
: discussed something similar in parshanus: there is indication that
: mecholos is a kind of dancing, and another that it was an intrument. If
: dancing, it's a dance that focusses on producing a rhythm with one's
: feet. Don't tap dance.
: 
: Is that a weak justification? Yes. It would require strong support from
: outside the textual formalism realm in order to become pesaq...

More "textual formal" sources: Toras Shabbos OCh 339:2 uses a Y-mi which
defines dancing as only including movement where one foot is coming off
the floor before the other fully lands.

The AhS (ibid #2) explicitly makes the "as a rhythm instrument"
argument.

BTW, again the Minchas Elazar is meiqil -- but only for people dancing
because they were carried away by the experience of Shabbos! (Not by
people trying to get carried away, etc...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 23rd day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            stifle others?

 
 

>   For girls and women, it is enough to learn halacha  and hashkafa.  They
> do not /need/ to learn Gemara in order to have  yiras Shamayim and dikduk
> bemitzvos.
>
> If it ain't broke  don't fix it. [--TK]  

R' Richard Wolpoe responded:

>>RYBS  disputes your claim that Halacha can be properly understood from  
2ndary
sources. GRA, Rosh have stated similarly on the  record






>>>>>
 
I don't know how you're defining "understand" but you most certainly can  
keep the halachos of kashrus, Shabbos and so on in your home if you know  Kitzur 
Shulchan Aruch (or even if you have learned halachos mimetically at your  
mother's knee, as girls did for doros -- "al titosh Toras imecha"), and if you  
have a rav you can turn to with shailos when something unusual comes  up. 
 
I very much hope that if you came to visit me, you would trust my kashrus  
even though I've never learned Gemara. 




--Toby  Katz
=============





**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family 
favorites at AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
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On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 04:21:18PM -0400, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: I don't know how you're defining "understand" but you most certainly can  
: keep the halachos of kashrus, Shabbos and so on in your home if you
: know Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (or even if you have learned halachos
: mimetically at your mother's knee, as girls did for doros...
: have a rav you can turn to with shailos when something unusual comes  up. 

You need more than a KSA to know what "unusual" means. It's not a good
guide to knowing what issues are contraversial. But I would agree with
the general point, that a few handbooks is sufficient for daily din. 

C.f. <http://www.chayas.com/homeschooltorah.htm> for R' Yoseph el-Gafeh
(Qapach)'s view (Halikhoth Teiman, "Derekh Chinukh Banim"):
> The world of the children is not an independent world. It is a part of
> the overall life of the community. When the child learns how to sit he
> is sitting around older people. Kids sit with adults --not just when
> they eat at home-- but also at happy occasions. From here we can see--
> from the beginning of his very first steps-- a child observes all the
> customs and manners by seeing and being part of everything. This
> (emulation) is learned by how others eat, sit, and discipline. Because
> of that, his (the child's) education becomes his nature. When the
> father goes to be a guest.. he takes his kids with him. Before he
> leaves, he tells them how to behave before the others. He tells him
> not to forget the rest of the people (around him). But what about the
> girls? The daughter is stuck like a shadow to her Mom. She learns all
> the mannerisms from her Mom."  About both girl and boy--there is
> almost no separation between youngsters and the older people. Because
> of the respect for the elderly and their behavior, youngsters are
> accepting to the traditions without any argument or question. They try
> to be like the elders in everything. Since everyone has the same rules
> and manners ... there is a peace between young and old.

However, there is a mitzvah of talmud Torah beyond halakhah. First,
the heter of teaching girls gemara because "al menas la'asos" today
must include enough so that girls see that chokhmah isn't only bagoyim.
And "al ta'amin be'atzmeikh ad yom moseikh" -- one can't count on being
one of the women who wouldn't assimilate without strengthening herself
first.

(Notice this notion of protection through strengthening self, rather
than relying on barriers...)

Second, there is the einah metzuvah ve'osah, no?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 23rd day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Netzach: How does my domination
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            stifle others?

It is time for me to begin my annual campaign to try to convince 
people that there is no reason to wait until after Tzas Ha Kochovim 
to daven Maariv on the first night of Shavuous. In fact, it seems 
that some shuls did not wait to daven Maariv on the first two nights 
of Pesach. See

http://parsha.blogspot.com/2008/04/davening-maariv-early-on-shabbos
-on.html


Many may be surprised to learn that it was not the practice in the 
Ashkenazic world in the time of the Rishonim to wait to daven Maariv. 
Also, it was not the practice of some Achronim.

The selections at 
http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/maariv_on_shavuous.pdf are taken 
from the sefer Sheirushei Minhag Ashkenaz, volume 4, by Rabbi 
Benyamin Shlomo Hamburger.  Anyone interested in going back to the 
old-time religion and having an early minyan on the first night of 
Shavuous? If you live in Flatbush, then please let me know.


Yitzchok Levine 
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Mitzvahs are to redirect man from his egotistical and instinctual  
focus, towards God.
We live in the "me" generation and instant gratification. I once wrote  
a sermon entitled "You're in the PEPSI Generation."
And I gave the following acronym for PEPSI: People Expect Personal  
Satisfaction Instantly...  Mitzvahs hopefully take one out of the  
PEPSI generation putting  them in the
KEDUSHA generation. My acronym for KEDUSHA:   Kindness, Excellence,  
Divinity, Understanding -- Solves Heretical Animosity.

Kol tuv
ri
  
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