Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 160

Thu, 01 May 2008

• 1. Re: When does mixed swimming mean? (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Re: When does mixed swimming mean? (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Tfillin?chol hamoed (Richard Wolpoe)
• 4. Re: Tfillin?chol hamoed (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Micha Berger)
• 7. The Return of Chometz (Cantor Wolberg)
• 8. Re: The Return of Chometz (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Kaddish Yasom (Richard Wolpoe)
• 10. Re: Letter of RSRH (T613K@aol.com)
• 11. Re: HQBH speaks through History (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Re: One day or two (saul mashbaum)
• 13. Re: Kaddish Yasom (Arie Folger)

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 07:16:45PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : 1. At Marienbad did one take the waters in a communal pool, or in
> : individual baths?
> : 2. If a communal pool, was it mixed?  Surely not!
>
> My understanding is that these health spas had a communal bath without
> separate hours. That with 19th cent bathing suits (and care to avoid
> negi'ah), many of our greatgrandparents' role models had no problem
> mixed swimming.
>
> -Micha


Indeed it was my understanding that given the 19th century [Victorian?]
bathing suit, mixed swimming was not such a big deal. Even the MEN wore
tops.

So perhaps it is not the issue of mixed swimming per se but the lack of
tzinus at the average beach.  and perhaps this can be obviated in our day by
having a family-run beach in which tznius bathing suits prevailed.


RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 07:16:45PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : 1. At Marienbad did one take the waters in a communal pool, or in
> : individual baths?
> : 2. If a communal pool, was it mixed?  Surely not!
> 
> My understanding is that these health spas had a communal bath without
> separate hours. That with 19th cent bathing suits (and care to avoid
> negi'ah), many of our greatgrandparents' role models had no problem
> mixed swimming.
> 
> Your surprise is just presuming your conclusion. ("Could it be that
> Yaakov walked /without/ a yarmulka?")

I'm actually surprised that 19th and early 20th century European
goyim would have had mixed bathing.  I know that Germany after WWI
went through a period of "nature" worship that included public
nudity and such like, but I would have thought Marienbad, which was
for older people, would have remained more conservative.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 4:55 PM, saul mashbaum <smash52@netvision.net.il>
wrote:

>
>
> RYBS, in keeping with his family tradition, did not put on tfillin on chol
> hamoed, which is the psak of the Gra. It is said that RMS once asked his
> father RCS that since putting on tfillin on chaol hamoed is a  machloket
> rishonim, shouldn't we out them on  misafek? RCS said that in his opinion
> the g'mara (Arachin 10b) clearly indicates that the kdusha of chol hamoed is
> comparable to the kdusha of Yom Tov, and is enough of an "ot" to be poter
> from tfillin. All this is related in Nefesh HaRav p. 192.
>
> The Gra on many issues paskens against the rishonim, based on his
> conviction that his raayot form the g'mara justify his position. According
> to this story, RCS sometimes adopted this approach as well.
>
> Although the Brisker tradition is often associated with trying to fill all
> opinions of the rishonim to the extent possible,  in the areas in
> which it follows the Gra the approach is just the opposite, sometimes
> adopting practices against the opinions of major rishonim.
>
> Saul Mashbaum
>

My issue with this is that any traditional Ps'ak with any amount of
consensus  can be overturned by "rayyos" from the Gemara.

I'm not accusing the GRA of abusing this prvilege, but I am saying that this
started imho a very slippery slope.

And this is not a matter of saying I am better than the GRA or anything like
that. I just have 200+ years of historical lessons that  have demonstrated
to me in a most convincing manner that many have slipped up on this matter.

I have also heard that the GRA hismelf warned people NOT to follow his
unusual [ideosyncratic?] hiddushim.

It is also clear to me that the GRA  had a different set of presuppostions
of how Halachah developed from the Talmud than did mainstream Ashkenaz.  See
Isreal. Ta Shma's quotes from Rabbeinu Tam and Or Zarua  to see what I mean.

Illustration: Based upon a puritanical Bavli model , one would have to allow
for women to read Megilah for men. Paradoxically,  RYBS [ostensably a
follower of GRA via RCS]  didn't even let women read for women [based upon
the more Ashkenazic MGA].  This  is contrary to the simple peshat of Arachin
2b/3a, Rashi/Tosafos/Rambam etc. on the daf.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 12:30:05AM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: My issue with this is that any traditional Ps'ak with any amount of
: consensus  can be overturned by "rayyos" from the Gemara.
: 
: I'm not accusing the GRA of abusing this prvilege, but I am saying that this
: started imho a very slippery slope.

The process as a whole is conserved by later generations (in the Gra's
case, the CI is an example; but I heard the same of the Besh"t)
declaring him a throwback to the rishonim. Thus, the Gra can go back to
the gemara and pasqen directly, but everyone else has to bow to the
precedents set by the rishonim. (Or prove their case different in some
perhaps subtle way.)

: I have also heard that the GRA hismelf warned people NOT to follow his
: unusual [ideosyncratic?] hiddushim.

I posted this too, shortly before Pesach. Anyone out there have a maqor?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

Micha Berger wrote:

> According to RMF, there is clearly no haqpadah to have the kezayis from
> any particular matzah, since otherwise how could you take them from the
> box? In which case, why would he insist on 2 kezeisim even if taken from
> the ke'arah?

I think there's been a miscommunication somewhere along the track.
I don't have the later volumes of IM handy right now, but IIRC in one
of the later volumes RMF says that nowadays since our matzot are too
small for everyone to eat from the one ke'ara, each son should have
his own ke'ara and should share his matzot with one of his sisters.
Taking matzot from the box is only to be done if this is not practical.

But if one does take matzot from the box, then it makes sense that
there's no need for two kezeitim (I don't recall whether this too
is in IM, or it's my own svara, but it seems to me irrefutable).

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 01:21:41AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: I think there's been a miscommunication somewhere along the track.
...
: But if one does take matzot from the box, then it makes sense that
: there's no need for two kezeitim (I don't recall whether this too
: is in IM, or it's my own svara, but it seems to me irrefutable).

I am only differing that if one PERMITS taking matzos from the box,
they are implicitly saying there is no need for two kezeisim -- even
for those who get their matzos off the ke'ara.

(As a chinukh issue: A child having their own ke'arah is another factor
in favor of staying engaged during the seider.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

"However, if so, then your idea could be taken as the point of the words
of Shema "lihyos lakhem lEilokim", to answer Hashem's calling rather
than imposing our own."

R'  Micha,
I'm not sure I understand fully what you are saying.
My point is (of course, what you say is intrinsic in Torah)
that we need props to remind us of "lihyos lakhem l'Eilokim."
The fact that we say it every day is essential, but we only
LIVE it once a year.
This is also the difference between wearing tzitzis and letting
it all hang out.

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 05:37:42AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
:> However, if so, then your idea could be taken as the point of the words
:> of Shema "lihyos lakhem lEilokim", to answer Hashem's calling rather
:> than imposing our own.

: I'm not sure I understand fully what you are saying.
: My point is (of course, what you say is intrinsic in Torah)
: that we need props to remind us of "lihyos lakhem l'Eilokim."

And my point is that in at least one opinion, we do the props once a
year to give meaning to the daily recitation. According to that shitah,
the mitzvos themselves are structured on the assumption that most people
don't need daily props, but daily reminders leveraging the annual prop.

Mussar, OTOH, heavily uses the idea of people establishing their own
props to help middah correction. These are called pe'ulos. Sometimes
they are an expression of the middah itself -- those are qabbalos.

    eg: A commitment not to yell at any of my children for the first
    15 minutes after I get home. Which can then be grown into a more
    appropriate balance of discipline and patience.

And some pe'ulos are simply mnemonic. Like the bracelet one switched
from wrist to wrist every time you lose patience with someone. (R' Perr
of Yeshivas Derekh Aysan beat Operah by decades on that one, although
he used a rubber band. Admittedly, he has no marketing opportunity in
his version...)

Itwould be rare, though, outside the context of a va'ad, for someone to
say "we *all* should". Different people need work in different areas,
and different people respond to different kinds of work.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 11th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Gevurah: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            strict justice?

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 1:02 PM, <Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org> wrote:

>
> 1. i believe it is a minhag in chabad to have maftir the whole year [ one
> person left the early minyan where i daven shabbos because we couldnt give
> him all the maftirs]


Kitzur SA mentions it, but outside of this case, I know of few who implement
it



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
>>I see  little evidence that RSRH would have taken a pro-Zionist stance. Then
again,  I would venture to say that if had lived during the Nazi ysv regime
he might  have dropped Austrit.  AISI the Holocaust changed a  lot of  minds
about a lot of things.<<

>>>>>
I doubt that Hirsch would have been a Zionist but he would have seen  
developments in E'Y in a positive light.  As for austritt, I don't see what  the 
Holocaust has to do with it or why it would change anyone's mind on that  subject. 
 Reform and Conservative remain outside of halacha and nothing the  Germans 
did changes that.  I've heard people say, very emotionally, "How  can you not 
consider me Jewish?  Hitler would have killed me!"  --  because of a Jewish 
grandparent, say.  Nevertheless, if the person is not  Jewish, he's not Jewish, 
and if something is not halachic, it's not  halachic.  Hitler is not our posek. 
 
 
The famous psak forbidding joint membership in a body that includes  Orthodox 
and non-Orthodox clergy was issued after the Holocaust  IIRC.






--Toby  Katz
=============





**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
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The ability to read an article critically has nothing to do with someone's
world outlook but rather how well he learned how to read in school. What you
write below  "THIS strand is based on  facts and data but THAT strand is
based on the secular scientist's own biases  and preconceptions" is true, to 
some extent,
about all sorts of people that that I know, and they have a
wide range of outlooks, from atheists to hareidi. When I say to some extent, 
I mean that you have to take into consideration the fact that readers, ALL 
readers, also have biases and preconceptions, not just the scientists and 
journalists.

Secondly what you write below may be true for an article in the NYT. For the
vast majority of humanity, it is not true for an article in a scientific
journal.

Ben

Rb Tk wrote:
>
> A TIDE-ist /could/ accept R' Slifkin's wonderful books on science and
> Torah
> but could not read science articles in the NYT uncritically. In fact,
> critical and independent reading of secular sources is a hallmark of
> TIDE.  It is
> what enables us to pick out strands in a science article, like  picking
> out
> individual strands of spaghetti, and say, "THIS strand is based on  facts
> and data
> but THAT strand is based on the secular scientist's own biases  and
> preconceptions."  Reading through Torah glasses is what TIDE is all
> about.

See MiPninei HaRav p.103, from which one can deduce that RYBS at the very
least considered holding 2 days YT a valid practice. The Shaarei Tshuva OH
496 cites a machloket acharonim as to whether a tourist holding 2 days can
ask an Israeli to do m'lacha for him on YT sheni. RYBS held that this is
definitely permissible, and that chazal never made a  gzeira of "amira
l'Yisrael". RYBS said this is the same case as OH 263:17, where the SA says
that one who holds "early Shabbat" may ask someone who has not accepted the
Shabbat to do m'lacha for him.

AFAIK, the accepted practice in Israel regarding doing m'lacha for tourists on YT sheini is in accordance with the above position.

RYBS was in Israel for Shavuot of 1935 (5695), so the question of YT sheini
in Israel was relevant to him on a personal basis. However, Shavuot that
year was on Friday, making YT sheini Shabbat, so the question of m'lacha
was not  relevant. I do not know if on that Shabbat RYBS davened just
Shabbat davening, or Shabbat and YT. RYBS was married at the time of this
trip, and I believe he had at least one child (Atara) then, but I do not
know if his family accompanied him on the trip.

Saul Mashbaum
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On Wednesday, 30. April 2008 17.36:07 avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 06:00:06AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
> : He was told (contrary to what many feel is proper) that it was not ?
> : kovodik for a son to shovel earth, so he refrained from
> : what he thought was correct...

I am pretty sure that I shoveled earth into my father's grave, and the 'hevra 
qadishah didn't say a thing. (On the other hand, they nearly threw a fit when 
realizing that I wasn't wearing a jacket under my coat. I didn't because R. 
Melekh Schachter had taught us to pasqen according to the Mas'at Binyamin, 
only to tear a jacket if one always wears it. In order to avoid a row with 
the 'hevra qadishah, I simply had no jacket under the coat. This, however, 
demonstrates that they weren't shy to point out when something isn't to their 
liking.)

KT
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com


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