Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 157

Wed, 30 Apr 2008

• 1. Re: Kaddish Yasom -- Misplaced Priority? (Arie Folger)
• 2. Re: 2 days yomtov (Arie Folger)
• 3. Re: early shabbos - does one have to be mekel (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 4. Re: kaddish (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Kaddish Yasom (Cantor Wolberg)
• 6. Re: Kaddish Yasom (Micha Berger)
• 7. The Three Zechisim (Cantor Wolberg)
• 8. chametz gamur (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: chametz gamur (Micha Berger)
• 10. 2 days yomtov (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: Chametz Gamur (Marty Bluke)
• 12. Re: Kaddish Yasom -- Misplaced Priority? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 13. Re: early shabbos - does one have to be mekel (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 14. Re: Kaddish Yasom -- Misplaced Priority? (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Re: letter of RSRH (T613K@aol.com)
• 16. Re: HQBH speaks through History [was R' Angel & Geirus Redux] (T613K@aol.com)
• 17. Re: 2 days yomtov (Marty Bluke)
• 18. Re: letter of RSRH (T613K@aol.com)
• 19. Re: 2 days yomtov (Liron Kopinsky)
• 20. chametz gamur (Eli Turkel)
• 21. Re: chametz gamur (Micha Berger)
• 22. Re: chametz gamur (Michael Makovi)
• 23. Re: Chametz Gamur (Michael Makovi)
• 24. Re: HQBH speaks through History [was R' Angel & Geirus Redux] (Michael Makovi)
• 25. Re: Kaddish Yasom -- Misplaced Priority? (SBA)
• 26. Re: Letter of RSRH (Micha Berger)
• 27. Re: When does mixed swimming mean? (Micha Berger)

RMYG wrote:
> This Yom Tov I saw a Rav allow an Aveil (who arrived late) to say Kaddish
> (IIRC, Shaleim) during Pesukei D'Zimrah (there had not been a Minyan
> present when the Chazzan reached Mizmor Shir).

??? AFAIK, only when a minyan participated in learning (beraita deRabbi 
Yishmael, for example) or reciting pessuqim can one say qadish. You might of 
course say that pessuqei dezimra constitutes the latter, BUT, those who do 
only have qadish after mizmor shir 'hanukat habayit, which had obviously not 
been recited in presence of a minyan. Furthermore, who says that we should 
insert that mizmor at all? The original minhag did not include it (and 
indeed, we don't say it). If its inclusion isn't definitely necessary, then 
the qaddish can't be, either, so how do we justify interrupting the holy 
pessuqei dezimra for qadish?

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

RLK wrote:
> > What if it were reversed and one left EY during chol hamoed.
> > In the old days he didn't forget the date within a few days

> It would seem to me in the old days that if he left knowing the date of
> rosh chodesh, any place he went to would also be able to keep 1 day since
> there is no longer a safek.

I don't think so. Notnim 'alav 'humrei hamaqom sheyatzah misham ve'humrei 
hamaqom shehalakh lesham.

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

AY & CB Walters wrote:
> Does anyone have any MMs on the dinim of early shabbos - bifrat if 
> someone is chayev to be mekabel shabos with the tzibur baal korcho.

See Igros Moshe O.H. V. 15 page 27 - minority of community following majority
    Igros Moshe O.H. III 38 page 340 - members of shul follow shul
    Igros Moshe O.H. III 38 page 341 -do it in summer obligated in winter
    Igros Moshe O.H. III 38 page 339 - wife follows husband's acceptance?

FWIW

1.      I have heard [no firm source] that learning a Mishnah is a good
[or maybe beter] than saying a kaddish as far as zechuyos go. 
2.      KItzur SA mentiosn saying haftaros as an Avel. I have rarely if
ever seen this done in practice.  I have seen it for yahrtzeits. 
3.      There is also mention of leading birkas Hamazon
         ========================================

In the shteibeil in my youth the rebbi was niftar and his teenage son
got maftir each week throughout the year (said brachot, someone else
read the haftara)
KT
Joel Rich

On a related topic, a good friend of mine, an O. musmach lost his  
father and there were many O. rabbis at the levaya.
He was told (contrary to what many feel is proper) that it was not  
kovodik for a son to shovel earth, so he refrained from
what he thought was correct. Up until he told me that, I always  
encouraged children to participate in the mitzvah. Has
anyone ever heard of this minhag or halacha?
ri

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 06:00:06AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: He was told (contrary to what many feel is proper) that it was not  
: kovodik for a son to shovel earth, so he refrained from
: what he thought was correct...

My father did accordingly when my grandmother was nifteres. I shoveled,
my father did not. I think it's that the children aren't supposed to
appear happy to be rid of the deceased.

I wasn't old enough to notice what he did when my grandfather died,
but my bet is that this was the instruction he got then from R' Fabian
Schonfeld of the YI of KGH.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

"Gedurim means they took measures to prevent Arayos and it might refer
to adopting the immodest Egyptian mode of dress."

So the question is that if they sunk to the 49th level (and that's why
they had to leave in haste so as not to sink to the 50th) how could
it be said that they were even interested or concerned in preventing
Arayos? They already had descended into such immorality.

Bizman hazeh, does anyone have any idea what level this generation is
down to (or hopefully up to)?

Kol tuv.
ri

<<I just want to point out that no one bizman hazeh can successfully be
makpid not to have chameitz gamur after peisach that wasn't sold on
peisach.>>

Some people in EY do not buy any chametz products for a month after Pesach
to at least limit the chances that it was in existence and not properly sold

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 12:31:43PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> I just want to point out that no one bizman hazeh can successfully be
:> makpid not to have chameitz gamur after peisach that wasn't sold on
:> peisach.

: Some people in EY do not buy any chametz products for a month after Pesach
: to at least limit the chances that it was in existence and not properly sold

My point was that even if everything was done kedas ukedin, I am sure
you will be forced to rely on the store selling chameitz gamur. Okay,
for the store it's arguably hefseid merubah in a way that for me it
isn't. (Although I would argue that adding another couple of hundred
dollars to the cost of Pesach /is/ merubah.)

However, for you, who has no such hefseid, you're still relying on the
storeowner's lack of chumrah. At that point, what is gained by my not
selling my own baked products?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

<<I am fuzzy about this.  makom shemagi'im went at least a 10 day hourney
BEYIOND the borders of EY.  So even if Eilat was NOT in EY  proper it would
still not have had a minhag avos to have 2 days of YT!>>

The accepted halacha is that 1 or 2 days yomtov depends only on EY and
not on where the shelichim reached. Hence R. Elyashiv (and I heard RAL)
pasken that Eilat has a halacha of chutz la-aretz and requires 2 days
yomtov. Needless to say this is not the minhag of most people who leave
or visit Eilat.

BTW it is brought down that CI and the Brisker Rov kept 2 days in Israel
because they felt that the places they lived were nonexistent in Temple
days and so the shelichim did not come to their town (or part of it
for the Brisker Rov). This is based on the Rambam who seems to say it
depends on the physical presence of shelechim. In both cases their
minhag was kept quiet as a personal chumra not to be copied by others
as the accpted halacha is that it does not depend on where the shelichim
came (did they come to Eilat?). i.e. once a gezera was made it was made
wholesale for all of EY and all of chutz laaretz.

Of course the definition of EY for this is debateable, besides Eilat
how about the Golan, even north of Acco and also Lebanon and possibly
even Egypt.
I remember it became a question one year when the IDF was in Lebanon
over a chag

kol tuv
-- 
Eli Turkel

R' EMT wrote:
<I just want to point out that no one bizman hazeh can successfully be
makpid not to have chameitz gamur after peisach that wasn't sold on
peisach.

Why not?

This has become a very popular chumra in Israel in the past few years.
In fact, for the past few years the major bakeries accommodated this
chumra. Flour used in baking is washed before used which may make it
into chametz. Therefore, the major bakeries (Angel's, Berman's, etc.)
use only unwashed flour right after Pesach until they receive flour
that was ground after Pesach. If you go to the Charedi supermarkets
you will see that things like pretzels, pasta, etc. all say that they
were made from flour ground after Pesach (these appeared already on
Monday 2 days after the end of Pesach) again to avoid using flour that
was sold.

R' SBA wrote:
> There isn't any doubt at all that by being oyver on
> halachos or causing tircha detzibura etc, the Kaddish-sayer
> is 'yotzo sechoro behefsedo'  Also some baalei yorzeit when
> at the amud, race through the whole tefila, with many
> unable to keep up or answer omein. I usually ask them if
> they think they have really achieved any 'tova' for the
> neshama?

When you wrote "I usually ask them", did you mean that you merely *want*
to ask them, or that you actually *do* ask them?

There are many times that I *want* to ask such people that sort of thing,
but then my more practical side tells me that such people would generally
not understand what I was talking about. Such a conversation would tend
to be unproductive, or worse, counterproductive.

But if you actually *have* pointed this out to people, please share
what reactions you've gotten from them. How often do they understand
what you mean, and does it ever result in an actual improvement?

(Rare is the person who understands his abilities and limitations. One
such was Mr. Sky of Elizabeth, who would often decline the amud, saying,
"When he died, my father turned me into a yasom. He didn't turn me into
a chazan.")

Akiva Miller
_____________________________________________________________

AY & CB Walters asked:
> Does anyone have any MMs on the dinim of early shabbos -
> bifrat if someone is chayev to be mekabel shabos with the
> tzibur baal korcho.

The second volume of (the original Hebrew version of) Shmirat Shabbat
K'hilchata has an entire 15-page chapter (chapter 46) on the halachos of
Kabbalas Shabbos, with particular attention to communities that start
early. As your post anticipates, there are so many variables involved
that it cannot be summarized here.

I recommend the SSK even for those who prefer not to follow it for psak,
because he goes into such great detail, and an average page has much
more in the Mareh Mekomos than in the text, making it very useful for
additional research.

Akiva Miller

RMYG wrote:
> This Yom Tov I saw a Rav allow an Aveil (who arrived late) to say 
> Kaddish (IIRC, Shaleim) during Pesukei D'Zimrah (there had not been a 
> Minyan present when the Chazzan reached Mizmor Shir).

Shalem or yatom or drabannan? Shalem indicates an end of an organic unit
iirc.
KT
Joel Rich

From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
RMB:
>>Bottom line is that RSRH was against Jews trying to redeem themselves
politically or try to bring the ge'ulah through hishtadlus. ...
Someone might take the new realia that emerged after his petirah and
reach the conclusion that RSRH wouldn't have been anti-Zionist (perhaps
only non-Z). But I personally don't see how to construct such a thing.<<

TK:
Hirsch followed the majority of gedolim and poskim in all matters and
would certainly have been an Agudist or something similar. Non-Zionist.
As for political action, in the first 19 centuries after the churban
it was almost universally accepted and expected that Hashem would send
Moshiach, not that we would do it ourselves. Hirsch was a Torah Jew,
not a navi and certainly not a secular visionary. He thought what
everyone in the Torah world thought -- that Hashem would send Moshiach.
At the same time, in Germany Hirsch was very much involved in the 19th
century political move toward greater liberalization of the laws,
more civil rights for Jews and so on. He even served for a time in
the Parliament or some such body in one German state.

Old TK:
:                Overall, it seems to me ...
:                that the Hashgacha has a  plan for the 
: Jewish people that  includes both a strong Torah-only community in  Eretz 
: Yisrael AND a  Torah-plus-work community in chutz la'aretz....

RMB:
>>TIDE  isn't Torah uParnasah. That's yet another hashkafah.
But why are you  limiting Torah-only to EY, and Torah-applied to chul?<<

TK:
You are correct that working for a living isn't by itself TIDE.
Most chassidim work. But it so happens that the majority of the black
hat, RWO (right wing Orthodox) olam in America is functionally, even if
not consciously, TIDE -- because TIDE is the only way a large community
can possibly exist in this day and age. Most RWO go to college, even
if just BTL plus grad school. Virtually all go to high school and
are literate in a secular language and have had exposure to secular
literature (even if only enough to pass the NY State English Regents
exam to get a high school diploma). We read and write in English,
not Yiddish. We have a vast efflorescence of Torah writing in English,
books and magazines. We learn Torah in English. We interact with the
non-Jewish world not only on the level of simple commerce but on an
intellectual level as well -- we are intellectually engaged in "da ma
shetashiv." I could go on and on but my point is the same point I've made
before -- TIDE is the only way to go in a modern democracy, the only
way that Torah survival is possible. Any older ideal of "Torah only"
can only succeed nowadays in a small, enclosed, self-selected community
that enjoys the luxury of being embedded in a larger TIDE community.
BTW the Torah-only community (including some of my own sibs) do not
see themselves as a subset of a larger TIDE community, but that is how
I see them, regardless of how they see themselves.

As for your question, "Why are you limiting Torah-only to EY?" the answer
is, it seems that that is what the Hashgacha desires. If it were up
to me I'd have a TIDE community in E'Y too, with a small group--our
modern Shevet Levi--learning Torah full time, supported willingly and
happily by the rest. However, it is not up to me. Hashgacha has so
worked things out that people who want to learn gravitate towards E'Y
while people who want to obtain a higher secular education and who
want to work gravitate towards chu'l. I'm using the word "people"
very loosely here, mainly thinking of RWO.

...
Old TK:
: A sign of the essential yiras Shamayim of Yekkes in general and Hirschians  
: in particular is that when they do  (unfortunately) deviate from TIDE  
: philosophical purity, they tend  usually to head right rather than left. I
: speak of their Torah affiliation,  not their political views.  

RMB:
>>Lo sosuru mikol asher yagidu lekha semol? I seem to remember another
bit to that pasuq.<<

TK: 
That pasuk means that you are not to deviate from the halacha as taught
and poskened by the rabbanim, poskim and Torah leaders of your day.
It has nothing to do with philosophic and hashkafic "left" and "right."
The Torah does not speak of a hashkafa which is "in the middle" and
certainly does not tell us that hashkafically a person has to be in the
middle between the Torah leaders on one side and secular leaders on the
other side. If your personal rebbe muvhak or rav is considered to be
RW in the Torah world, you should not deviate from his teachings --
that's what your pasuk means. It does NOT mean that you should seek
out some rebbe who is considered Emtza and avoid all RW rabbanim!

RMB:
>>Yekkes differ toward Litvishkeit because Litta exported its talmud
Torah. That's not a shift to the left or the right, but a shift from
basing avodah on menchlachkeit to basing it on talmud Torah. Calling it
left-vs-right belies the complexity of the differences in thought.<<

TK:
I am not at all sure what you're saying, but when Yekkes move away from
TIDE and towards a "Torah-only" model of avodas Hashem, they certainly
do not become less menshlich. However what I really had in mind when I
said that Yekkes who deviate show their yiras Shomayim by moving right
rather than left is that the other choice they had was to move left --
towards MO. And that is what they tend not to do. Of course I would
prefer that they not move at all, but remain true to their Hirschian
heritage.

...
Old TK:
: I am totally and absolutely convinced  that they are both wrong.  

: What has happened in E'Y in the last  hundred years simply cannot be ignored, 
: cannot be gainsaid, and  cannot -- chas vesholom even to say such a thing -- 
: all be  attributed to the workings of the Sitra Achra...

RMB:
>>And  what does that have to do with my insisting you can't project back
onto what  RSRH would have said?<<

TK:
Both you and SBA insisted that Hirsch would have been Neturei Karta
or Satmar in his attitude towards the modern Israeli state if he were
alive today. I am certain that is NOT true. He would have been RWO,
non-Zionist but would have viewed developments in E'Y as overwhelmingly
positive and a sign of Divine benevolence.

--Toby  Katz
=============

From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
>>Rabbi Shelomoh Danziger discusses how the mekor of TIDE is that before
a person is a Jew placed in his particular spiritual place, he is a
human placed in this physical world - derech eretz kadmah et ha-Torah
(or something like that). G-d placed us in this world to live in it and
to develop it as per Bereshit 1:28. Rabbi Weinberg says that Torah is
the form and derech eretz the matter. How then can understanding our
world not have independent value?<<

How can you fulfill the mitzvah to conquer earth if you don't understand
it? Torah is the how, but derech eretz is the what, and how can the
how exist without the what?

If chol has no independent value, but is only something to be subdued
and conquered by Torah, why not simply sidestep the issue and ban all
chol? <<

I don't understand anything you wrote or any of your questions and
nevertheless feel somehow obligated to answer them. All I can do is to
reiterate that secular knowledge is an extremely valuable and useful
body of knowledge and well worth a Jew's time and effort to obtain.
The TuM ideal of "two mountains" -- two independent and equally valuable
bodies of knowledge, secular knowledge and Torah -- is foreign to the
TIDE ideal of obtaining secular knowledge in order to further one's
avodas Hashem and passing all knowledge through the prism of Torah.

In terms of the time spent, I confess that I spend more time on secular
reading than I should. The ideal division of time is something like what
my father zt'l used to do -- 95% of his reading/learning was Torah and
seforim and maybe 5% was secular books and newspapers. In some charedi
circles even 5% -- even one percent -- would be considered unacceptable
bitzul zman. My father considered it necessary and valuable. That is
how I understand TIDE.

Let me give you an example of something concrete that might show the
difference between TuM and TIDE. It has been suggested here on Avodah
that science is its own sphere and Torah is its own sphere, and when
you are studying science, you leave Torah out of it, while when you are
studying Torah, you leave science out of it. Each is its own domain.
Such a two-brained view of the world is TuM and certainly not TIDE.

A TIDE-ist /could/ accept R' Slifkin's wonderful books on science and
Torah but could not read science articles in the NYT uncritically. In
fact, critical and independent reading of secular sources is a hallmark
of TIDE. It is what enables us to pick out strands in a science
article, like picking out individual strands of spaghetti, and say,
"THIS strand is based on facts and data but THAT strand is based on the
secular scientist's own biases and preconceptions." Reading through
Torah glasses is what TIDE is all about.

--Toby  Katz
=============

R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:
<I am fuzzy about this. makom shemagi'im went at least a 10 day hourney
BEYIOND the borders of EY. So even if Eilat was NOT in EY proper it
would <still not have had a minhag avos to have 2 days of YT!

There is a machlokes rishonim which places keep 2 days. The Rambam
(kiddush hachodesh perek 5) writes that any place where the shluchim
reached keeps 1 day even outside of EY. However, places that the shluchim
didn't reach in EY or didn't go to in EY keep 2 days. This is why many
Briskers keep 2 days l'chumra in Israel because they are choshesh for
the Rambam that the place they live in was not inhabited and therefore
shluchim never went there. The Ritva on the other hand writes that
since in general the shluchim reached most of EY and didn't reach most
of chutz laaretz in EY you keep 1 day and in chutz laaretz 2 days.

Here is the Rambam in chapter 5:
??? ????? ??? ???, ????? ?????? ?????.  ????:  ?? ???? ???? ???? ????
??????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????, ??????? ???? ?????? ??? ??????--???
?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???, ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??????
????? ??.  ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ??, ???? ??? ??? ?? ?????,
???? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ???? ?? ???????? ??? ?????? ????? ???
????; ?? ???? ???? ????? ????, ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????
????; ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ????? ??????.

?  ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ?????, ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???,
???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????, ???? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ???
?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????; ??? ??? ?????.  ?? ????, ???? ????
???? ????? ????? ????.

??  ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??, ?? ???:  ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???????
???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??????--????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????, ????
????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???????, ???? ????
???? ?? ????.  ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??
????, ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????--?????:  ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????
???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???, ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????
?????? ?????? ???, ????? ??? ??? ????.  ??? ???? ????? ??????, ????
??? ????? ??????? ?????? ???, ?? ????? ????, ???? ?????? ????? ?????
?????? ???--????? ????? ??????? ???????:  ?? ??? ???, ??? ???; ??? ???
????, ??? ????.

From: Yitzhak Grossman <celejar@gmail.com>
>>How do  you know?<<

Also my father channeled Hirsch and is probably sitting with him right
now in Gan Eden. By "channeled" I mean he was generally mechaven to
his ideas and ideals.

The bit you quoted about PAI in the current JO is fascinating, BTW.
I will certainly have to look into that further. I know my father parted
with PAI at some point but never knew why or what the issues were.
Just a vague sense that PAI moved left.

--Toby  Katz
=============

RZS:
>But in the old days if he left after Rosh Chodesh, anywhere he went
would already be keeping one day because the shluchim on their fast
horses would surely make it there before him.<

This assumes that they went to the same place he did. Did they send riders
to Cyprus? Maybe, but it is probably same to assume that the riders did
not have absolute full coverage of all places that could be reached in
10 days.

<<My point was that even if everything was done kedas ukedin, I am sure
you will be forced to rely on the store selling chameitz gamur. Okay,
for the store it's arguably hefseid merubah in a way that for me it
isn't. (Although I would argue that adding another couple of hundred
dollars to the cost of Pesach /is/ merubah.)

However, for you, who has no such hefseid, you're still relying on the
storeowner's lack of chumrah. At that point, what is gained by my not
selling my own baked products?>>

I find this logic extremely strange. It amounts to saying that the store
owner can sell because of hefsed merubah but preferably no one should
buy from him. Doesn't accomplish very much.

In fact I had a similar conversation over Pesach concerning Shemitta and
heter mechira. If one holds that the farmer can sell his land because
of hefsed but the consumer shouldn't buy from him then again you have
destroyed the farmer's income. You seem to be saying that the farmer
or the store should only get a parnassah from people who are not very
careful.

In a different context RMF allows a company to use unkosher jelling
devices in icecream because it is batul be-shishim. He seems to consider
this a bedieved even for the consumer. i.e. if we allow the company or
masgiach to do something it makes no sense to tell the customers not
to buy!

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Wed, April 30, 2008 11:49 am, R Eli Turkel wrote:
: I find this logic extremely strange. It amounts to saying that the
: store owner can sell because of hefsed merubah but preferably no one
: should buy from him. Doesn't accomplish very much.

I am trying to argue that since you are already swept up in his
hefseid merubah -- which isn't even needed according to all shitos to
begin with -- such that you can buy his chameitz once it's his again,
why aren't you allowed to sell your own chameitz?

Or, do we say that the storeowner too can't sell everything, that at
some point the amount left would only be a hefseid qetanah and that
amount couldn't be sold?

And if the storeowner's last $5 could be swept up in the general
reliance, why not my $5?

To phrase it more straightforwardly -- if I can rely on the heter to
buy off the storeowner, why can't I rely on it for my own stuff? I'm
already assuming it's okay to sell chameitz gamur, even if that
assumption was only accepted to avoid the grocer's hefseid merubah.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> <<I just want to point out that no one bizman hazeh can successfully be
> makpid not to have chameitz gamur after peisach that wasn't sold on
> peisach.>>

> Some people in EY do not buy any chametz products for a month after Pesach
> to at least limit the chances that it was in existence and not properly sold
> R' Eli Turkel

Why not just rely on the rabbanut hechsher certifying that they sold
their chametz?

Mikha'el makovi8

>  So, they wanted peanut butter for Pesach. I pointed out that you can't
>  find KLP peanut butter in the states. (And in EY, can you be sure it
>  doesn't contain "real" qitniyos?)
> R' Micha

However, I DID find KLP techina here in America. It was in the kosher
market's techina/chumus aisle, and one of the brands happened to be
from Israel, so it has a KLP hechsher. Ironically, the entire aisle
was sold on Pesach; obviously, its being KLP was entirely accidental.
If you don't dilute the techina, it tastes a lot like almond butter.

> I'd think looking at the ingredients would be enough for this purpose.
> Since kitniyot are batel berov anyway, surely one needn't worry about
> ingredients they didn't feel important enough to list.
> R' Zev Sero

I would be interested in a further discussion on this.

Mikha'el Makovi

> The TuM ideal
> of "two mountains" -- two independent and equally valuable bodies of
> knowledge, secular knowledge and Torah -- is foreign to the TIDE ideal of
> obtaining secular knowledge in order to further one's avodas Hashem and
> passing all knowledge through the prism of Torah.
> R' Toby Katz

Prefacing that I have barely studied any TuM (rather, I have studied
mostly TIDE), I'll remark that at a talk by Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein,
the talk was prefaced by a vort on Avot, the mehalech ba-derech, that
if glancing up from your Torah, to a tree, is an interruption in your
Torah, then of course you're chayav; but if you see the tree as part
of your avodat hashem, if Torah and trees is one seemless tapestry of
G-d's maaseh, then there's no interruption in looking up to the tree
from your Torah and you're not chayav. During the talk, as I noted
previously, Rabbi Lichtenstein noted that those who study chol
understand Sefer Bereshit better. Now, I'm definitely not learned in
TuM, but if there's any "two mountains", I didn't hear it there.

Anyone know of any good threads for me to read up on?

> A TIDE-ist /could/ accept R' Slifkin's wonderful books on science and Torah...
> R' Toby Katz

While Rav Hirsch's chumash presents a view of creation at odds with
evolution, his collected writings say that **IF** evolution is true,
then we'd simply reply that it shows His majesty that all He had to do
was create some original organism and the laws of evolution, and
voila! Rabbi Elias wants to say that Rav Hirsch would obviously not
accept evolution, given that the chumash was his last writing. I'd
however say that since evolution was far less proven then than it is
today, Rav Hirsch didn't bank any money on it as far as his practical
philosophy went (his chumash). But he was willing to present a
hypothetical argument for a hypothetical hypothesis, as a backup, just
in case. I'd compare it to Rashi saying that we don't read it kach,
but for those who do, the explanation is kach. Rashi obviously follows
the first reading, but presumably, if he had discovered more proof of
the second reading, he'd himself follow that reading.

> ...but could not read science articles in the NYT uncritically.

Neither does a good scientist, for that matter.

Mikha'el Makovi

From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" < >
R' SBA wrote:
> There isn't any doubt at all that by being oyver on
> some baalei yorzeit when
> at the amud, race through the whole tefila, with many
> unable to keep up or answer omein. I usually ask them if
> they think they have really achieved any 'tova' for the
> neshama?

When you wrote "I usually ask them", did you mean that you merely *want* to
ask them, or that you actually *do* ask them?

In our shul- where everybody knows everybody (and is often also related), it
is rare that I am not on good terms with the baal tefilah. Thus I actually
do ask them this.

>>>if you actually *have* pointed this out to people, please share what
reactions you've gotten from them. How often do they understand what you
mean, and does it ever result in an actual improvement?

Most listen and understand and often we see some improvement. 
But I wouldn't talk about this to a person who I know won't accept it from
me. Mutav sheyihyu shogegin..

>>(Rare is the person who understands his abilities and limitations. One
such was Mr. Sky of Elizabeth, who would often decline the amud, saying,
"When he died, my father turned me into a yasom. He didn't turn me into a
chazan.")
===

We used to have an old timer here, who, despite the fact that he didn't have
a clue, loved the amud.

When he went to the amud, the letzim used to say that he was a chiyuv -
yorzeit.  He killed this tefilla  exactly a year ago...

SBA

On Wed, April 30, 2008 3:09 pm, Joseph C. Kaplan wrote:
: "TK:  Both you and SBA insisted that Hirsch would have been Neturei
: Karta or Satmar...."

: I simply don't understand how anyone can predict how the Holocaust and
: the actual creation of the State of Israel would have affected RSRH's
: thinking about Zionism....

I agree wholeheartedly. Even if I think Toby is quoted above as
thinking I said otherwise.

However, that is a discussion of what RSRH would have believed. What
he actually did believe was that the data at his disposal implied that
he should be against the Zionism of his day. Austritt implied
anti-Zionism (which again can only mean Zionism as it existed then).
He might have changed his definition of Austritt had he lived at a
later time, but that's guesses about change, not his position.

:                         One can as easily say that he would have
: become the Honorary President of Mizrachi as say that he would be NT,
: Satmar or RWO.  Oh, sorry, that was a different gadol who switched
: from being a member of the presidium of Agudah to the Honorary
: President of Mizrachi after the Holocaust.

RYBS was raised by a Zionist - Rn Peshka. R' Moshe became a Zionist
too, after she worked on him for a while. The Rav only joined Agudah
once he got to Berlin, and saw the Yekkish version of the clique. So,
it's not quite as clear cut that he really changed ideology as much as
realizing the dimensions of their umbrella.

But that's also speaking of change. Real change rather than guessing
at how someone might have changed, but still a shift in position due
to extraordinary changes in the world being assessed. When we speak of
RSRH's position, there is something to discuss -- as long as we
remember that we're discussing the person as a product of his times
judging only the movement as it existed in those times.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 07:16:45PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: 1. At Marienbad did one take the waters in a communal pool, or in
: individual baths?
: 2. If a communal pool, was it mixed?  Surely not!

My understanding is that these health spas had a communal bath without
separate hours. That with 19th cent bathing suits (and care to avoid
negi'ah), many of our greatgrandparents' role models had no problem
mixed swimming.

Your surprise is just presuming your conclusion. ("Could it be that
Yaakov walked /without/ a yarmulka?")

Perhaps the fact that it was generally for recouperation (choleh she'ein
bo sakanah) makes it impossible to generalize to swimming as a
recreation. And in any case, the change in bathing attire makes it
rarely applicable today anyway.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

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