Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 156

Wed, 30 Apr 2008

• 1. Re: 2 days yomtov (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Chametz Gamur (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Chametz Gamur (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 4. Kaddish Yasom -- Misplaced Priority? (SBA)
• 5. Shaos Eretz Yisroel (EY zeiger) (SBA)
• 6. Re: Tfillin?chol hamoed (Richard Wolpoe)
• 7. Halachic Authority of Zohar wasTfillin on chol hamoed (Richard Wolpoe)
• 8. Re: kaddish (Richard Wolpoe)
• 9. Re: prof sperber (Richard Wolpoe)
• 10. Re: HQBH speaks through History [was R' Angel & GeirusRedux (Richard Wolpoe)
• 11. Re: 2 days yomtov (Richard Wolpoe)
• 12. Re: 2 days yomtov (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza (Richard Wolpoe)

Eli Turkel wrote:
> What's the problem? When in chu"l, two days.  When they
> arrived in Israel and, just as in the old days when they
> learned the date of Yomtov, one day.>>
> 
> What if it were reversed and one left EY during chol hamoed.
> In the old days he didn't forget the date within a few days

Right.  That would be a nafka mina between the reasonings of the
Chacham Tzvi and the SA Harav.  According to the former, this person
should continue to keep one day, but according to the latter since he
is now in Chu"L he keeps two days.   L people who follow this psak,
and who are in EY for yomtov, need to be careful not to go down towards
Elat on the first day of Chol Hamoed, since once they leave the borders
of EY it becomes yomtov.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

Micha Berger wrote:

> So, they wanted peanut butter for Pesach. I pointed out that you can't
> find KLP peanut butter in the states. (And in EY, can you be sure it
> doesn't contain "real" qitniyos?)

I'd think looking at the ingredients would be enough for this purpose.
Since kitniyot are batel berov anyway, surely one needn't worry about
ingredients they didn't feel important enough to list.

On the subject of kitniyot oil, though, note that the Rema clearly
forbids it (yes, I know there are other opinions).

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

<: I was asked for a list of items normally found in the home that are
: likely chametz gamur and should be disposed of for those who don't
: include such items in the sale of chametz.

I don't.

I just want to point out that no one bizman hazeh can successfully be
makpid not to have chameitz gamur after peisach that wasn't sold on
peisach.

I therefore wonder about the utility of keeping up this minhag.>

     Relying on the sale to buy chametz gamur after Pesach is relying on a
     legal loophole to avoid the issur d'rabanan of chametz she'avar alav
     haPesach.	Selling chametz gamur is relying on a legal loophole to
     avoid the issur d'oraiso of bal yeira'eh.

EMT
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From: "Micha Berger" < >
.. saying kaddish is a zekhus for the niftar, but by no means the only way
that a chid's actions can be a zekhus for a deceased parent.  Even if one
were to argue that the desire to be mezakeh one's parents is an
understandable, or even laudable reason that saying kaddish might be given
unusual weight ..
>> 

See KSA 26:22 where he clearly writes that while saying Kaddish and
davvening at the Amud is beneficial for the neshama of the niftar, "mikol
makom ein elu ha'ikkar." (And, BTW, davvening at the amud is more valuable
than saying Kaddish.) The KSA explains and cites a Zohar.

There isn't any doubt at all that by being oyver on halachos or causing
tircha detzibura etc, the Kaddish-sayer is 'yotzo sechoro behefsedo'

Also some baalei yorzeit when at the amud, race through the whole tefila,
with many unable to keep up or answer omein. I usually ask them if they
think they have really achieved any 'tova' for the neshama?

SBA

Someone passed on to me a recent copy of the NK publication "Hachoma" -
which is usually contains repetitive and predictable articles. 

But this issue has a small piece about something which would have puzzled
most who have spent time in Jerusalem and seen the notices/pashkevillin of
the walls - announcing the time for some function/protest/tefilla/drasha
giving 2 times; one "Lamed Shin Alef Yud" (leshaos Eretz Yisroel) and
another as  shaos "Europis".  Most have no idea what the LShEY means.

This article explains that under this system the Shekieh is always at 12
midnight, when the new cycle (day) begins. 
Thus - al pi Minhag Yerushalayim to bring in Shabbos 40 minutes before
Shkiyeh - candle-lighting time is always 11.20.

The writer also claims that many call it the "Arabisher zeiger". But this is
an error as it used to be known as the "Erevisher" (miloshon Erev = night.

He also writes that the British did their best to get rid of this system and
destroyed a number of public clocks that used it

I am happy to send a scan to anyone interested.

SBA
sba@sba2.com

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> RJR wrote:
> :
> Until then, it was pretty much a straight machloqes: the Behag, Rambam,


WHERE is the Beahg and the Rambam??


>
> Rashba and Ri say don't wear them. The Rosh, Or Zarua and Maharam
> miRutenburg say one must.
>
>
>
> SheTir'u baTov!
> -micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
> micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
> http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> RJR wrote:
> :> Question- How could it be that the earlier rishonim were unaware of
> :> the severity of the "prohibition"?
>
> Someone answered on Areivim (typo? attempt at saving reputation?):
> : Default answer: the "Zohar" hadn't been found yet. Cough.
>
> Let's assume the most "frum" position, that the Zohar we have today is
> as RaShBY wrote it.
>
> Even if known to the intelligentsia, no one would have made it a basis
> of pesaq until more widely available. The publication of the Zohar
> radically changed Yahadus simply by making it possible to give these
> ideas center stage.
>
>
>
> SheTir'u baTov!
> -micha
>
> --
>


So if CI [or others] object to [lemashal] Me'iri creeping into the Halchic
process at a "later date" how come the Zohar is allowed to creep in after
being outside he Halchi process all those years?

Or Lemashal, let's say a Midrash  existed  in the eraof mIdrashim -- let's
call it Midrash Rav Papa. . Poskim  know about it , but didn't pasken from
it  for let's 1,000 years. What could change and make this Midrash Rav Papa
a source text for Halachic practice - especially one that would alter
EXISTING practice [as opposed to just creating an uncontrovesial minhag]?

Even if Midrash RashBY was a 100% authentic Midrash, it would seem to be
lich'ora an 'aggadic" document not a  Halachic one.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:

> <<The way I understand it, saying kaddish is a zekhus for the niftar,
> but by no means the only way that a chid's actions can be a zekhus for
> a deceased parent.
> --
> Eli Turkel
>

FWIW

   1. I have heard [no firm source] that learning a Mishnah is a good [or
   maybe beter] than saying a kaddish as far as zechuyos go.
   2. KItzur SA mentiosn saying haftaros as an Avel. I have rarely if
   ever seen this done in practice.  I have seen it for yahrtzeits.
   3. There is also mention of leading birkas Hamazon


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 07:44:20AM -0700, Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org wrote:
> : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/977278.html
> : 1]  on  ivory tower psak
>
> I agree that there is a real problem when formal/textual halachic process
> is used not only to validate options, but as the sole criterion for
> weighing them. Then you're left with vacuums that only get filled by
> "baal nefesh yachmir" and "we most be chosheish for ...'s shitah" --
> the textualist's means of extending boundries.
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --


I'm not sure I understand your position

Re: C psak we have agredd inthe pas that they frequently have a politcally
correct targe in mind and then muster the sources to support the position.

My criticms is that Many O poskim sdo this, too.  They first make up their
mind how the Halacha SHOULD look and then back it up.

Ideally p'sak should be FOLLOWING the sources not vice versa [and sources
INCLUDE minhag/Mimetics etc.]

IMHO poskim should state a methdology and to follow it as best as they can.
Both BY and Rema did exactly that. In fact, the 2 most powerful poskim of
their time rarely created any new ps'ak at all, rather they sifted through
pre-existing poskim with a fairly obejctive and consistent set of underlying
assumptions.

And even though Rambam has some very unusual Hiddsuhim, over 90% of the time
he is really following Rif.

S. Shlomoh Ganzfried wrote in a letter that he used a "beth din" of Chaeyie
Adam, SA Harav and Derech Hachayyim

I have suggested a Beth Din of MB, AhS and Kaf HaChayyim as an alternative
early 20th century model.  Perhaps we can come up with an early 21st century
model.

The point is to use some kind of objective model so as not to create an
overly subjective Halachah. This is imho the biggest challenge today in
P'sak.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Please do not conflate TIDE with TuM.  They are two very different
> philosophies, often at odds with each other.  This has been extensively
> discussed on A/A before you came aboard.
>
> *--Toby Katz
> =============*
>
> ----------------
>
> Very different?
>
> How do you define each and why are you so opposed to TuM and supportive of
> TIDE?  I don't see that much of a difference between them. I know you've
> addressed this issue in the past in the course of disscussions on this
> issue. But can you be a bit more specific and do so in a single post? What
> is it about TuM that is not a part of TIDE that makes it so very different -
> that bothers you? ...that makes you believe that it is a wrong Hashkafa?
>
> HM
>
>
TuM is can be easilyseen aseither an  Americanized branch of TIDE or a
modernized application of it.

Frankly, RSR Hirsch was a kannai and he sees to feel that everything  has to
fit a VERT specifc narrowly defined model to be kosher . But the truth is
that TIDE, TM and HIldesheimer wre all struggling with frumkeit in a
post-ghetto Westernized world. {So Does Habbad, NCSY,  Young Israel etc.
etc.]

We can NEVER know for sure how RSR Hirsch MIGHT have acted had he been born
in 1908 USA instead of 1808 Germany. He might have become very Revel-Like in
his own way.

Also I recall in the very early days of Avodah, RYGB endorsed TuM as a
philosophy but NOT YU's brand of implementation.

Knowing today what I know about the Hildesheirmer Seminary, I would say that
is defintely my single favorite M-O of thm al. to the extent that YU or HTC
etc. conform, I would applaud it.

Somehow Hildesheimer was able to keep Yir'as Shamayyim on a high level while
still confronting Wissenshaft. I have met very few today who have handled
both successfully.
-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

> Eli Turkel wrote:
>   L people who follow this psak,
> and who are in EY for yomtov, need to be careful not to go down towards
> Elat on the first day of Chol Hamoed, since once they leave the borders
> of EY it becomes yomtov.
>
> --
> Zev Sero
>

I am fuzzy about this.  makom shemagi'im went at least a 10 day hourney
BEYIOND the borders of EY.  So even if Eilat was NOT in EY  proper it would
still not have had a minhag avos to have 2 days of YT!

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Liron Kopinsky wrote:

> It would seem to me in the old days that if he left knowing the date of 
> rosh chodesh, any place he went to would also be able to keep 1 day 
> since there is no longer a safek.

But in the old days if he left after Rosh Chodesh, anywhere he went
would already be keeping one day because the shluchim on their fast
horses would surely make it there before him.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Elazar M. Teitz <remt@juno.com> wrote:

>
>
>     Not according to the Gr"a.  According to him, the shleima is for
> motzi, and the p'rusa for the mitzva of matza.  He eliminates a third matza
> because l'shitaso, Yom Tov does not require lechem mishne.  Thus, at a
> non-seder Yom Tov meal he used only one matza.  Conversely, at a Friday
> night seder, he used three.
>
> EMT
>
>
This is the Shita of the Behag2 matzos on weeknights 3 on Shabbos [See Tur].
The Ga'onim [perhaps/probably  AFTER the BEHAG] introduced the requirement
of Lechem Mishnah on YT. A big Tzarich Iyyun for me is that the Rambam
accepts this Ga'onic ruling but uses ONLY 2 matzos at the Seder [apparently
even on Friday Night]

Lich'ora the problem with the Rosh [et. al.] is that he takes the lechem
Mishneh ruling on YT as axiomatic, although this can be shown to be missing
from the text of the Talmud, OTOH Ashkenazim  OFTEN accept ancient
non-textual sources as EQUIVALENT of Talmudic
sources.

The BY/SA paskens 3 matzos because bottom line this is the overwhelming
consensus of Poskim [iow rishonim] ignoring the analysis of original sources
AND his stated Beth Din of Rambam/Rif/Rosh which SHOULD have produced a
result of 2.

AISI, the BY [and Rema] both hold the bottom line is consensus.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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