Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 93

Fri, 07 Mar 2008

• 1. Re: Sefer HaChinuch on why 2 weeks Nidah for a girl and only 1 for a boy (Daniel Israel)
• 2. Re: Sefer HaChinuch on why 2 weeks Nidah for a girl and only 1 for a boy (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Pranks (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 4. Avodah Post - Ma'aser Funds for Raffles (Joseph Sasson)
• 5. Re: Avodah Post - Ma'aser Funds for Raffles (Daniel Israel)
• 6. purim drinking (Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org)
• 7. seudat Purim (Eli Turkel)
• 8. daas torah & history (Eli Turkel)
• 9. Re: purim drinking (David Riceman)
• 10. Re: seudat Purim (Zev Sero)
• 11. O attend R wedding = kosher eidim? (Michael Makovi)
• 12. efficacy of prayer (Eli Turkel)
• 13. Re: O attend R wedding = kosher eidim? (Daniel Israel)
• 14. Re: Pranks (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 15. Re: Hot Cheese for Shabbat Lunch (Yitzhak Grossman)

On Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:15:41 -0700 Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> 
wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 09:38:29 -0500, RRW 
><rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>: The Rambam et. al. seem to be pretty sure that NO poseik after 
>: the Gemara is absolute...
>
>The Rambam holds that no poseiq after the gemara was accepted by
>everyone, and therefore no subsequent poseiq is absolute. However, 
>he wasn't alive to see people study SA and Mappah for their 
semichah. 
>He could have been theoretically right, but pragmatically get 
>different results for today.

Rambam might also, arguably, have concluded differently if he knew 
there would be a case of a real musmach, davka according to his 
shita...

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

On Wed, March 5, 2008 3:37pm, R Daniel Israel wrote:
: Rambam might also, arguably, have concluded differently if he knew
: there would be a case of a real musmach, davka according to his
: shita...

You say "arguably", but I would argue not.

Ravina veR' Ashi sof hara'ah despite their lack of real semichah. As I
quoted, he bases the authority on it being mequbal umispasheit bekhol
Yisrael. The qualifications of the poseiq didn't play a role.

RYBS argued that we rely on the SA, Mappah and nosei keilim no less
than we do shas, and therefore by the Rambam's criteria, the standard
SA page defines rishonim and their precedence.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 01:45:57 -0500
"Michael Kopinsky" <mkopinsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know of any poskim that discuss pranks vis-a-vis goneiv al menas
> l'meikat?

Not really an answer, but here are some thoughts on the subject.

I once heard a story of dormitory students who took and hid an item of
another as a prank.  The victim, subsequent to retrieving his property,
proceeded to seize property of equal value from the perpetrator(s),
arguing that he is owed Kefel, and that even though Beis Din doesn't
currently rule on Kefel [0], T'fisah is still legitimate [1].

Two objections:

A)  K'zos [2] is uncertain whether gonev al m'nas l'mekat is a real
ganav with regard to a hiyuv onsim.  If he isn't, then there may not be
a kefel obligation.

B)  There is considerable controversy as to whether T'fisah works for
K'nas where there is only a confession but no witnesses; see S'ma [3],
Shach [4], K'zos [5] and N'sivos [6].

[0] first Halachah in SA HM
[1] ibid. 1:5
[2] ibid. beginning of 348
[3] ibid. 1:18
[4] ibid. 16
[5] ibid. 6
[6] ibid. 5

> KT,
> Michael

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

All-
I recently received an e-mail from a local yeshiva I highly respect
regarding their most recent fund raising project.  In essence, the yeshiva
is running a lottery wherein (numbers changed for simplicity) 200 people
each pay-in $1,000.  One person will win $100,000 and 40 others will win
$2,000.  The yeshiva will keep the rest. (In the actual case the yeshiva
will be keeping between 22%-23%.)  The e-mail also mentioned by way of
reference that the funds for this lottery could come from one's ma-aser
funds.  For the purposes of this discussion I would like to assume that
ma'aser kesafim is a hiyuv.  A general discussion on the nature of such
obligation (if any) is not my intent.  My questions are as follows:


1.  Primarily, can one allocate ma'aser funds for such a project? If so,
where do we draw the line in terms of percentages retained by the charity?
 2.  If not, must one always take into account the administration costs of
charity (e.g. the 10% paid to the collector)?

Thanks,
Joseph Sasson
sasson11@gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avo
dah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080305/0dab0f41/attachment-0001.html 

Joseph Sasson wrote:
> I recently received an e-mail from a local yeshiva I highly respect 
> regarding their most recent fund raising project.  In essence, the 
> yeshiva is running a lottery wherein (numbers changed for simplicity) 
> 200 people each pay-in $1,000.  One person will win $100,000 and 40 
> others will win $2,000.  The yeshiva will keep the rest. (In the actual 
> case the yeshiva will be keeping between 22%-23%.)  The e-mail also 
> mentioned by way of reference that the funds for this lottery could come 
> from one's ma-aser funds.  For the purposes of this discussion I would 
> like to assume that ma'aser kesafim is a hiyuv.  A general discussion on 
> the nature of such obligation (if any) is not my intent.  My questions 
> are as follows:
> 
> 1.  Primarily, can one allocate ma'aser funds for such a project? If so, 
> where do we draw the line in terms of percentages retained by the charity?

There is a very nice sefer called _The Laws of Tzedakah and Ma'aser_ by 
R' Taub which deals with these questions.  (Originally published in 
Hebrew as Imrei Tzedakah.)  Your case seems no different than any 
raffle, except for the numbers involved. He quote Igros Moshe as 
holding, b'kitzur, that one must compute the value of the ticket 
statistically and then only pay ma'aser for cost above that.  If I 
understand correctly, in your example, if people not interested in this 
tzedakah would still be willing to pay $700 for such a ticket, just to 
have a chance at winning, then you could only use $300 of ma'aser (that 
is, use ma'aser to pay the difference).

The cheshbon seems a little more complex than I'm presenting, please 
don't rely on this without checking the details.

He also quotes both RYSE and RSZA as being opposed to using ma'aser 
money for raffles.


-- 
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

for those makpid to be drunk ,or  at least affected enough to sleep ,on 
purim---   is this independent of the seuda?
  ie   is it appropriate  to do the drinking  before the seuda---and then 
one must leave enough time to recuperate to eat a seuda while not 
stuperous 
[ i would see then the sequence  as very early mincha-profound 
drinking-sleep-groggy-wash for seuda]
[ or drink right after megilla-drunk-stupor-mincha-seuda]
[one must carefully then be yotze mishloach manot./matanot  very early so 
one can settle in with a bottle uninterrupted];
  or is the drinking tied davka to the seuda-and in a normal ear the 
drunkenness/sleepiness will then be as darkness approaches or even after?

for this year i assume it is more complicated yet , to recuperate from 
intoxication before making shabbos.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20080306/85df9080/attachment.htm 

Thanks to Joseph on his detailed discussion of seudat purim on friday.
two remarks

1. His analysis applies to sefardim. He briefly mentions the Ramah and
claims there are few
sources. Nevertheless the ashkenazi minhag is to have it in the morning

2. In the shul I attended in Madrid they will have a public seudat
purim in the shul on
friday afternoon going into shabbat and candle lighting and kabbalat
shabbat concluding
with maariv. This is the rabbis Morrocoan heritage

-- 
Eli Turkel

To put it another way: With all the MO talk against da'as Torah, look
how much ink was spilled (and how many bits were arranged?) discussing
RYBS's and RAS's versions of Zionism and whether one can/should give
back territory. Their pictures hanging on their students' walls to
remind them -- not of information, but of the culture, attitudes and
"feel" of their rebbe's shiur room.>>

No one objects to following ones rebbe's derech. The problem with daas torah
is the insistence that it is their rebbe who is correct and he never errs.
RYBS always stressed the importance of one thinking for himself. That doesnt
mean ignoring the opinions of gedolim including RYBS himself.


: I've never understood the objection, for example, to a certain Chumash
: narrative being stam history. If it has a lesson, yofi, but if not,
: what's the problem? Suppose there were no lessons to learn from the
: Avot and Imot - do you think that then you could dispense with their
: history? ...

Not just Chazal... Look how paltry the biographies of the avos and
Moshe Rabbeinu are. Missing decades in Avraham's life... not even his
re-discovery of monotheism is covered. Large chunks missing from
Moshe's life. No description of the majority of the time in the
midbar.

Or to rephrase Micah Chumash is not a history book or a science book

-- 
Eli Turkel

Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org wrote:
>
> for those makpid to be drunk ,or  at least affected enough to sleep 
> ,on purim---   is this independent of the seuda?
Both the gemara and the Shulhan Arukh discuss it in the context of the 
seudah.

David Riceman
>   

Eli Turkel wrote:

> 2. In the shul I attended in Madrid they will have a public seudat
> purim in the shul on friday afternoon going into shabbat and candle
> lighting and kabbalat shabbat concluding with maariv.

My shul will be doing the same.  One problem I see: each householder
has a chiyuv to light candles at home, and the earliest time for
lighting is plag hamincha.  In Brooklyn, that will be at 5:55pm.  At
my shul the seudah is called for 5:00, and will be preceded by a 4:30
megillah reading, which I assume I will be expected to do.  Now I live
close enough to the shul that I can slip out after 6pm, light candles,
and come straight back; but it would be much more difficult for many
others.

Now I know that women have a minhag of lighting at other people's homes
with a bracha.  AIUI, from a halachic POV what they're really doing is
helping their hostess with her mitzvah, in the same way that one can
help another with his mitzvah of bedikat chametz, and for their own
obligation to light their homes they are relying entirely on the
electric lights.

Now AFAIK when one helps another with his bedikat chametz it's
preferable not to make a bracha, but to hear it from him and answer
amen.  So ISTM that the women's minhag of each making their own
bracha when lighting in someone else's home is more a matter of
tolerating something for the sake of making a nachat ruach than of
strict halacha.

Now some practical questions:
1. Does anyone have a chiyuv of hadlakat nerot at a shul where
people will eat seudat shabbat, but which is nobody's home?
2. If so, can all the women join in that mitzvah and make a bracha,
with at least as much heter as they do at someone else's home?
3. Is there no requirement that someone should be lighting a
candle at their home?
4. What about men, who (AFAIK) have no such minhag in general?

See SA OC 263, where there's a lot of discussion about women who go
to mikveh or to a chupah on Erev Shabbos, but it all seems rather
bediavad.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

Was: Re: [Areivim] R & R concerts

The subject shifted to Orthodox eidim at a Reform wedding:

R' Toby Katz noted that Reb Moshe Feinstein ruled that R eidim are
unkosher, and thus, there is no wedding, no need for a get, no
mamzerim.

>> R' Toby Katz:
>> Of course if two Orthodox Jews attend a C or R wedding, then they may be
>> kosher eidim and there is reason to suspect the marriage may be
valid after  all,
>> in which case they DO need a get when they divorce and the children of a
>> second marriage ARE mamzerim.  So any Orthodox Jew who does not want to be
>> responsible for creating mamzerim should definitely never go to R
and C  weddings.

> R' Harry Weiss:
>  That is not necessarily correct.  If one out of a Kat of 100 wittnesses in
>  invalid, they are all invalid.  That is the reason of the designation of
>  specific individuals to be wittnesess at a wedding, because they are
>  almost always invalid eidim  (relatives)

And besides, maybe we could play like R' Akiva in the Sanhedrin, i.e.
(hypothetically) ask impossible questions? Could this O guy tell me
exactly how long it took to say the brachot, or exactly how full the
kos was? Or what brand of wine was used? Oh well, I guess he's not a
witness...

If this works, would you have to actually ask the O guy the questions,
or could we just assume he doesn't know the answers and declare him,
automatically, not an eid?

Mikha'el Makovi

Two questions

1. My wife spoke this morning with a former terrorist victim (lost
husband and 2 sons).
She asked my wife that thursday morning there was a public prayer at the kotel
with important rabbis. That night was the tragedy at yeshivat hakotel.
What good is all these prayers?
What do you answer this woman?

2. People I know had an argument whether it is better to pray for oneself or
rather it is preferable to ask a tzaddik to pray.
I am convinced that praying oneself is better but I need sources not logic

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 14:19:21 -0700 Michael Makovi 
<mikewinddale@gmail.com> wrote:
>R' Toby Katz noted that Reb Moshe Feinstein ruled that R eidim are
>unkosher, and thus, there is no wedding, no need for a get, no
>mamzerim.
>
>>> R' Toby Katz:
>>> Of course if two Orthodox Jews attend a C or R wedding, then 
they
>>> may be kosher eidim...
>
>> R' Harry Weiss:
>>  That is not necessarily correct.  If one out of a Kat of 100 
>> wittnesses in invalid, they are all invalid. 
>
>And besides, maybe we could play like R' Akiva in the Sanhedrin, 
>i.e. (hypothetically) ask impossible questions? Could this O guy 
tell 
>me exactly how long it took to say the brachot, or exactly how 
full 
>the kos was? Or what brand of wine was used? Oh well, I guess he's 
not 
>a witness...
>
>If this works, would you have to actually ask the O guy the 
questions,
>or could we just assume he doesn't know the answers and declare 
>him, automatically, not an eid?

If this works why would you need to restrict it to non-O weddings?  
We could use this technique to be m'vatel any kiddushin where there 
is an agunah.  From the fact that we don't use it there, I would 
assume that we couldn't justify using it by non-O.

As to why we don't use it to free agunos, I'm not familiar enough 
with the sugya.

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 01:45:57 -0500
"Michael Kopinsky" <mkopinsky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know of any poskim that discuss pranks vis-a-vis goneiv al menas
> l'meikat?
> 
> KT,
> Michael

Rabbi Tzvi S(h)pitz states categorically that pranks (theft '"l'sheim
mis'hak" bilvad') are prohibited, Biblically according to at least some
Poskim, and he even cites some who maintain that such a theft is
punishable by lashes [0]!

[0] Mishptei HaTorah (Heb.) - Nizkei Mammon Siman 11

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

On Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:57:01 GMT
"kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:

> On the topic of what is <<< fleishig mid'oraisa >>>, R' Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> 
> > Actually, Maran [0] and Shach [1] rule that fowl isn't
> > m'd'oraisa, Rema doesn't disagree, and although Shach cites
> > a dissenting view of some Aharonim, he states that "harbeh
> > poskim m'od" rule that it isn't.
> 
> But that was in the context of basar b'chalav, which doesn't have anything to do with the simcha or oneg which one gets from eating it.

The context of my remarks was:

Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

> T613K@aol.com wrote:

> > The meat at lunch can be cold chicken (thanks to Chazal who were 
> > kind enough to make chicken fleishig, for this very purpose).
> 
> Huh?  I hope this is tongue in cheek (both of which are fleishig
> mid'oraisa)!

I understood RnTK to mean that Hazal's defining fowl as bassar WRT
bassar b'halav was in order to allow us to utilize it to fulfil the
obligation of the Shabbos day meal (which is of course not true, at
least not on the level of P'shat [even according to the opinion that
the prohibition of bassar of b'halav is Rabbinic], as RZS retorts). I
am unsure of what she actually meant.

> Akiva Miller

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 93
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."