Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 87

Sun, 02 Mar 2008

• 1. Re: Girl Scout cookies (Akiva Blum)
• 2. Re: history (Micha Berger)
• 3. ashkenaz and sefard (Eli Turkel)
• 4. history (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: Hot Cheese for Shabbat Lunch (Michael Makovi)
• 6. Re: history (Michael Makovi)
• 7. Re: Roast lamb (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 8. Re: Pre-Sinaitic conversions (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: opposites attract (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: history (Michael Poppers)
• 11. Re: Pre-Sinaitic conversions (Daniel Israel)
• 12. Re: Pre-Sinaitic conversions (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Pre-Sinaitic conversions (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: inviting the grandparents Z"L to the wedding (Menachem Posner)
• 15. greeting (reuven)
• 16. Maasar Rishon (Galsaba@aol.com)

I wrote:
>>>

Daniel Israel <dmi1@hushmail.com> wrote:
>>>
David Riceman wrote:
> My wife recently brought home a few boxes of Girl Scout cookies.  
> They're labeled OU Dairy, but when you read the list of ingredients 
> the only dairy ingredient (whey) is third on the list headed by 
> "contains less than 2% of:".  Is one permitted to eat these cookies 
> after eating meat?  If not, why not?

First of all, AFAIK (as someone else mentioned), bitul only occurs when
there is a davar issur involved. 
<<<

Bitul occurs even hetter in hetter. Y.D. Ramo 96:6
<<<

Sorry, that should be Y.D. 99:6 end of Ramo, see Shach 22.

Akiva

On Thu, February 28, 2008 4:30 pm, Rich, R Joel wrote:
:>> This whole attitude is so a-historical as to be disturbing

:> And Tosfos about Pinchas, Eliyahu, and Beis Hakvaros?

: IIRC we also discussed the universal conservation of personalities
: theory (that chazal had some message in these identifications)

Let's go with the theory  that Chazal simply weren't historians and
thus never cared or paid attention to the question of history. (I
won't call this idea "mine" as I believe it's another one of those
historical consensuses in Torah that today are unpopular.) That asking
historical questions on a medrash isn't a matter of right or wrong,
but simply off topic.

And so, Chazal aren't looking at the historical Pinchas, but the
archetype Pinchas represents. It's not a "universal conservation of
personalities theory" so much as an identification of two people as
serving the same role in the typology.

WRT learning halakhos from the notion that the avos followed kol
haTorah kulah... Chazal similarly couldn't have been talking about
whether or not they actually did. And therefore when they draw
halachic conclusions, it can't be from the history -- since that would
imply an interest in historicity that numerous rishonim tell us didn't
exist.

Avraham was a tzadiq. Moreso, Avraham as portrayed in the Torah is an
archetype used to illustrate positive values. Narratives that are
perpetuated about Avraham avinu can not include activities we consider
wrong, even if wrong because of halakhos that didn't yet exist.
Because if they did, they would water down rather than enhance the
usability of Avraham as an archetype of serving HQBH through chessed.

Therefore, we can make conclusions about the halachic positions of
those who retold the event and allowed the narrative to reach our
ears.

Even if one holds that Avraham avinu a"h served the three visitors
matzos because they came on the 15th of Nissan, the conclusion isn't
drawn on the strength of Avraham's precedent but rather on the
strength of all the people who retold that tidbit.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Ashekanzic Liturgy kept Kallir from Israel and Meshulam Ben Kalonymos
of Lucca Italy. IT is fairly well-established fact that Ashkenaz
,looked up to Italy and Italy to Israel in terms of Minhaggim etc.

The usual claim is much stronger. That ashkenaz ie German Rhineland
Jewry actually came there from Italy and that Italian 800 CE Jews came
there from EY.
I am away from my books but I believe Grossman has a discussion in his
books on early ashkenaz with a more varied background of ashkenazi
heritage

see also wikipedia on ashekazi jews
Eli Turkel

IIRC we also discussed the universal conservation of personalities
theory (that chazal had some message in these identifications)

The question is whether this identification of seemingly different
people is only for musar or similar reasons or else
is to be taken as real history. In particular the question arose about
learning halachot from these identifications boh by rishonim and by
chazal themselves
-- 
Eli Turkel

>  On the topic of eating fowl on Shabbos and Yom Tov, I have found it
>  noteworthy that when we were in the midbar and complained about the
>  lack of "basar" to eat, Hashem answered us by sending fowl. From
>  context, it seems clear to me that He expected the fowl to meet our
>  definition of what we were asking for -- i.e., that fowl (or at least
>  that particular species) meets the definition of "basar" in that
>  context. This does not necessarily prove that fowl provides *enough*
>  oneg or simcha to satisfy Hilchos Shabbos V'YomTov, but still, I
>  think it is noteworthy.
>
>  Akiva Miller

I'll take it a step further:

G-d says He'll send basar - Moshe asks if all the flocks or all the
FISH will be enough, and G-d sends quail. So we see that red meat,
poultry, and fish are all "basar"!

Mikha'el Makovi

> > This whole attitude is so a-historical as to be disturbing
>
>  And Tosfos about Pinchas, Eliyahu, and Beis Hakvaros?
>
>  We have discussed before that chazal have a tendency to identify
>  together people who seem to have nothing in common. In many cases it
>  makes people hundreds of years old or on the contrary had children
>  very early when there is no reason in pshat for this. In fact by
>  Eliyahu and many other such cases there are other sources that dispute
>  these connects. Hence, some explain that these people had
>  characteristics in common or were a gilgul of one another etc.
>
>  As MYG points out one difficulty is when the gemara or rishonim try
>  and learn halachot from these identifications.
>
>  --
>  Eli Turkel

I recall R' Chayot's Students' Guide to the Talmud (insert
advertisement for R' Gil) making the case that Chazal did this as a
homiletic device to link similar characters across history, or for
making obscure characters (i.e. "Why did the Tanach bother telling us
his name?") into meaningful ones by linking them together. He makes
his case by citing a Gemara (I forget where) where the question is
asked, after such a link having been made, "What does this do for us?
What do we learn by linking these two characters?" So apparently, it
wasn't a mere mechanistic/literal linking of those who were (thought
to be) the same (500 year old) person or a gilgul, etc.; it was for
homiletic purposes only, he says.

Mikha'el Makovi

A while back, R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> Roasting in a pot is not halachically roasting at all in
> Yorei Dei'ah even w/o any added water. [the meat will ooze
> its juices soon enough].

Some requested sources on this, and today RRW followed up with:

> Yep there is another source   The Aruch hashulchan. I saw it
> today and Baruch Hashem he was mechaven to my point!  <big
> smile!>
> Of course the Avodah universe should have genuflected to the
> infallible RRW first, but since people are not infallibe as I
> am, they needed PROOF.
> All kidding aside, it is sometimes a wonder why a good sevara
> needs a Gadol? ... Today's world [rigth and left] is so
> enamored with authors and not good Torah.  As I creep past
> middle age I was nostalgic for the good old Litvisher
> Rabbanim who were not enamored by NAMES but by quality Torah.

How does one judge a sevara to be good or not? I see nothing compelling
about your argument that "even without any added water, the meat will ooze
its juices soon enough". Maybe the juices is not enough? Maybe there's a
shiur for how much liquid is needed to separate tzeli from bishul? And
maybe that shiur differs depending on situation. For example, korban pesach
vs. hechsher keilim vs. brachos -- we could very easily use a stricter
definition for one and an easier definition for another.

THAT'S why we ask for sources. You can't simply decide on your own that
your svara is a good one. What makes perfect sense to you might have some
flaw that you didn't notice. That's why ideas are subjected to peer review.

For example, yesterday (in the thread "Sefer HaChinuch on why 2 weeks Nidah for a girl and only 1 for a boy") RRW wrote this:

> The Taz is LOGICALLY wrong!  Why? Because the mechabeir does
> NOT hold from Chaticha na'aseh neveilha besh'ar issurim. It
> provides a contradiction. The Shach is consistent with other
> examples of  measuring by the max [e.g. kachel] You do not
> have to be a gadol to see the sheverkeit in this Taz. It is
> apparent and many acharonim have noted it. This does not mean
> the Taz is not a Gadol or that he is ALWAYS wrong. But kabedihu
> vechashdeihu anyway. You cannot accept the Taz w/o analysis.

I'll repeat that last sentence:
> You cannot accept the Taz w/o analysis.

And we can't accept RRW without analysis either.

Which reminds me: Would you mind telling us where that Aruch Hashulchan is?

Akiva Miller
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So, I suggested that "geir" means "stranger", which is ambiguous --
could be geir tzedeq, geir toshav, someone new to the neighborhood, or
historically speaking, someone who joined beris Avraham before other
berisim existed. (There are no recorded cases of someone joining the
beris at har Sinai before the one by the Yardein.) And we simply need
mesorah and context to disambiguate from the general idea to specific
halachic category.

Another thought hit me that I posted in earlier iterations but haven't
mentioned in a while.

Gid hanasheh bechalav is two lavin. We do not say "ein issur chal al
issur" because the issur of gid hanasheh is different in kind than
those first given at Sinai.

The case in Beitza 12a-b is someone who cooks and eats gid hanasheh in
milk on YT. He violated the 5 issurim: (1&2) cooking and eating GhN,
(3&4) cooking and eating BbC, (5) hav'arah. R' Yochanan objects to
hav'arah. But lemaskanah, both assume issur chal al issur.

Unfortunately, it has been 22 years since I learned the inyan with
RDLifshitz. I do not recall who explains it in terms of allowing issur
chal al issur because GhN is pre-Sinaitic.

I also do not know how the Rambam explains the gemara. Since he says
that beris Sinai replaced previous berisim, and so the issur of gid
hanasheh today is different than that of Yaaqov and his sons, I do not
see how the line of reasoning works leshitaso.

However, it would seem that the first rishon holds that in a
fundamental way, Yoseif and his brothers weren't what we would call
today "Jews". OTOH, since the issurim we have today are from a beris
that didn't exist yet, I see nothing shocking. It's only when you try
to map 4 or more berisim to two states -- Jew vs non-Jew -- that
confusion emerges.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Fri, February 22, 2008 12:01 pm, Eli Turkel wrote:
: The drop from +49 levels of holiness to -49 levels of tumah
: is greater than from zero (or wherever they start from) to -49.

To add confusion to this by dragging in another thread...

If tum'ah is caused by the sudden departure of potential for qedushah,
is it possible to rapidly drop from +49 qedushah without ending up at
the bottom of the tum'ah scale?

I think this might be a second way to view REL's comment:
: In any case mt point was that in this case the sin was a direct result
: of their missing the high level of kedusha. I agree with Toby that
: other peoples can sink from other vantage points

But then, it raises question of how one can get from 0 (or where ever)
to -49 tum'ah without starting with qedushah to lose...

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

In Avodah Digest V25#86, RJR wrote:
> IIRC we also discussed the universal conservation of personalities
theory (that chazal had some message in these identifications) <
Just came across an old 'blog entry of RGS': 
http://www.yasharbooks.com/2005/03/hazal-and-biblical-characters.html.

A guten Shabbes and all the best from Michael
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Micha Berger wrote:
> (There are no recorded cases of someone joining the
> beris at har Sinai before the one by the Yardein.) And we simply need
> mesorah and context to disambiguate from the general idea to specific
> halachic category.

Yisro?  Does no one who hold he arrived after matan Torah also hold that 
he was m'gayer?  Or did I misunderstand you?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

On Fri, February 29, 2008 2:34 pm, R Daniel Israel wrote:
: Yisro?  Does no one who hold he arrived after matan Torah also hold
: that he was m'gayer?  Or did I misunderstand you?

I was under that exact impression -- that if he arrived after matan
Torah, he was not megayeir.

The notion of Yisro being a geir makes understaning the origins of the
nation of Keini complicated. They are an offshoot of Moav who carry
one of Yisro's names. He is usually understood to be their forefather.
And they lived near Amaleiq, because we were to be careful WRT the
Keini when waging war with Amaleiq. If their progenitor was a Jew, how
are they another nation? We they Yisro's pre-geirus offspring?

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Micha Berger wrote:

> The notion of Yisro being a geir makes understaning the origins of the
> nation of Keini complicated. They are an offshoot of Moav who carry
> one of Yisro's names. He is usually understood to be their forefather.
> And they lived near Amaleiq, because we were to be careful WRT the
> Keini when waging war with Amaleiq. If their progenitor was a Jew, how
> are they another nation? We they Yisro's pre-geirus offspring?

As I have always understood it, the Keini were Jews.  They're a separate
nation in the same sense as all gerim are: they are not of the 12 tribes;
until they intermarry with Bnei Yisrael they are not "kehal Hashem"; and
they have no portion in the land.  They were given the site of Yericho
as a loan, but they couldn't rebuild the city, and once a site had been
picked for the BHMK they would have to give it up to whichever tribe
needed to be compensated.  And as Bil'am prophesied, they were captured
by Ashur together with the 10 tribes, and either returned or will return
together with them.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

Nitay Gavriel (Chapter 4, footnote 14) brings a number of Chassidishe sources for this (Lubavitch, Ger, Skver). 
 
He quotes the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe as saying that at least three
generations are present at weddings. He also writes that this is based on
the Zohar (Balak, Pinchas) where it is written that parents who have passed
on participate in the simchos of their children.<?xml:namespace prefix =
o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

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Shabbos morning on the way to shul I   heard in the distance a loud speaker
announcing "code red" and immediately two explosions. Right after that I 
passed a friend  i wished him a good shabbos and "shabbos he milizok." any
other ideas for a proper greeting.
a gut voch
Reuven 
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Reading Babba Metzia I am not sure what the rules are for Maasar Rishon.
1. Maasar Rishon should be given to the Levi. As Cohen is also Levi, does he 
get Maasar Rishon as well?
2. When Ezra came to Eretz Israel he gave a penalty to the Leviyim. What was 
this penalty? Did he decide NOT to give Maasar to the Levy, but instead to 
give to the Cohen? or to give both.
If this was the case how could he be OKER mitzva deorayta?
 
Reading Beith Habechira LeMeiri, Babba Metzia Daf 11, Amud 1, it looks like 
there are two opinions.
But reading other sources (Rmabam and others) I understood that he did not 
give the Levi, but to the Cohen instead.
 
Thanks
 
galsaba



**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.      
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rach
el-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
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