Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 63

Fri, 08 Feb 2008

• 1. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. Re: No hesped? (T613K@aol.com)
• 3. : Re: Shekalim (SBA)
• 4. Re: No hesped? (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: No hesped? (Richard Wolpoe)
• 6. Re: The influence of Nusach Sefard on Nusach (Richard Wolpoe)
• 7. Re: Cave or desert island (Michael Makovi)
• 8. Mishkan before or after egel (Michael Makovi)
• 9. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (kennethgmiller@juno.com)

On Feb 7, 2008 6:29 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

>
>
> Mamrim pereq 2 also asserts that minhagim start with the beis din,
> whereas most teach that minhagim are from the ground up and only
> afterwards ratified through rabbinic approval. It is unclear to me
> that we necessarily hold like the Rambam WRT the scope of beis din's
> role in creating practice. It could be that here too the Rambam
> assigns a greater role than others would.
>
> SheTir'u baTov!
> -
>

See menachem Elon on Minhag

AS I have posted MANY  times before
The most usual suspect of a  minhag  [expecialyl an OLD minhag] is of a
p'sak whose author/context has been forgotten.

This is directly related to the Snahedrin model.

The ground floor model of minhag starting with people is a popular notion
but not the main reason for respecting minhag.

The Rema in Darche Moshe dexxcribes a repeal of minhag that he would later
regret because later on a source was located. IOW, the Rema became
cosnervative [in the sense of cautious] WRT minhaggim precisely because he
presupposed that the Minhag had a source but it was lost.

Ironcially, just as the original soruce of minhag has been lost, so is its
orginal meaning.  A community that does X at large is thus presumed to have
had a poseik/Rav/mora 'dasara in their history that  paskened that way once
upon a time.

Illustration:
This is the Aruch Hashulchan's quasi justification for not sitting in the
sukkah on Shmini ATtzeres [or minimizing the sitting/sleeping] in the cold
RussianTundra


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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From: "Rich, Joel" _JRich@sibson.com_ (mailto:JRich@sibson.com) 

>>There seems  to be a not infrequent practice to allow for funerals held
on days when there  are not supposed to be hespedim , "recollections"
and/or "life lessons"  (substitute appropriate Yiddish depending on your
venue ) .  Given that  according to many  (while bechi is a goal) the
main element of hespedim  is to remember who the individual was and the
impact of his absence, what is  the halachik basis for these talks?  Is
anyone aware of whether this has  been minhag Yisrael for a long time for
the  masses?<<

>>>>>
I don't know sources and I don't  know how long this has been "minhag 
Yisrael" (if it can even be called a  minhag), but my grandmother A'H passed away on 
chol  hamoed Pesach.   And I remember that my father said at the  levaya that 
you don't make hespedim on chol hamoed, and then  he  addressed his mother 
directly in Yiddish, just a few sentences, of  which I remember only:   "Mama, 
you used to come to school every day  to bring me a hot lunch."  
 

Parenthetically I think he may actually have been embarrassed, as a young  
boy, by the fact that his mother showed up at school every day with a hot lunch  
-- no one else's mother did that -- but (something I learned only years  
later) his mother had another son, a brother my father never met, who died of  
hunger in World War I. I don't remember what else my father said, only that he  
said goodbye to his mother and did not directly address the people at the  
levaya.  Of course, addressing the niftar is not unusual, one often sees it  at 
levayos even not on yom tov.  But I guess that technically that's not a  hesped. 
 My father certainly would have spoken at greater length, and in  English, if 
it had not been chol hamoed.  




--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good values,  good family, good hair
Best hope against  Hillary




**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.     
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)
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From: "Rich, Joel" >

Galsaba:
For next week Parashat Shekalim, how much I need to give?
I heard that in some shules they use a silver coin, some give about $5?
Is there a "fixed rate" for waht I need to give for Machatzit Hashekel?
==
Actually IIRC some shuls have a minhag to specifically say(on the plate)
this isn't really machzit hashekel ..
>>

How do you give 'shekalim' on Shabbos anyway...??
I always knew the minhag was to give Taanis Esther at Mincha.

SBA

On Feb 7, 2008 8:58 AM, Rich, Joel <JRich@sibson.com> wrote:

>  There seems to be a not infrequent practice to allow for funerals held on
> days when there are not supposed to be hespedim , "recollections" and/or
> "life lessons" (substitute appropriate Yiddish depending on your venue ) .
> Given that according to many  (while bechi is a goal) the main element of
> hespedim is to remember who the individual was and the impact of his
> absence, what is the halachik basis for these talks?  Is anyone aware of
> whether this has been minhag Yisrael for a long time for the masses?
>
>
> KT
> Joel Rich
>

Why is there no aveilus and shiva when a burail is on YT/ Hulu ShelMO'ed [at
leat untli after the Moed is over?

Becuase the Moe'd derabbim is doche the aveilus of the yachid. We do not
want tose celebrating a Mo'ed to be socialyl obligated to visit the aveilim
until the Mo'ed is over so as not to dtract from the mo'ed. {bekoshi hitru
nichum aveilm beshabbos]


AISI here too at a levaya. the hesped  - so important for the  aveilim - is
suspended out of respect for the tzibbur @ large

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Feb 7, 2008 8:58 AM, Rich, Joel <JRich@sibson.com> wrote:

>  There seems to be a not infrequent practice to allow for funerals held on
> days when there are not supposed to be hespedim , "recollections" and/or
> "life lessons" (substitute appropriate Yiddish depending on your venue ) .
> Given that according to many  (while bechi is a goal) the main element of
> hespedim is to remember who the individual was and the impact of his
> absence, what is the halachik basis for these talks?  Is anyone aware of
> whether this has been minhag Yisrael for a long time for the masses?
>
>
> KT
> Joel Rich
>

Why is there no aveilus and shiva when a burail is on YT/ Hulu ShelMO'ed [at
leat untli after the Moed is over?

Becuase the Moe'd derabbim is doche the aveilus of the yachid. We do not
want tose celebrating a Mo'ed to be socialyl obligated to visit the aveilim
until the Mo'ed is over so as not to dtract from the mo'ed. {bekoshi hitru
nichum aveilm beshabbos]


AISI here too at a levaya. the hesped  - so important for the  aveilim - is
suspended out of respect for the tzibbur @ large

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Feb 7, 2008 5:49 AM, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I just read a sefer (respectfully) attacking many of the psakim of ROY
> on the basis
> of old Morrocan minhagim and urging the Morrocoan community to keep to
> their
> own customs and not be overwhelmed by what other sefardi communties do.
> Most of the sefer is a halachic justification of their customs against
> the psak of
> ROY to change them
> The end has several articles of a general nature on psak
> In particular they point out that most communities have been
> influenced by outside
> sources. In particular sefardim were very influenced by the Rosh and
> his descendants
> who lived in Toledo for many generations.
>
> --
> Eli Turkel



There is a big difference between the Anicent Ashkenazicatitude towards
local minhag nad the Sephardic approach

Ashkenaz: Every locale is uber alles. You simply do NOT impose minhag
Magenza in Spyeres. etc.

Sepharad: Aderabbo: If you can bulddoze your way thru and destroy local
customs, hazak uvaruch.  The Rif''s Talmidim altered Minhag EY,  The Rambam
attacked Iraqi minhaggim, Ben Ish Chai cahnged minhag Bagda from RY Karo to
Ari, and ROY is trying to do the same.

I guess you can defend the  sepahdic approahc as the ultimate humra on lo
sisgoedu. If you can force the entire world to follow just ONE poseik  you
have the ultimate obviatiion of any lo sisgodedu and ultra simplification of
Halacha

Se the REma's intro to the Mappah where he feared that RY Karo's SA would be
treated as "miSinai" so he felt compelled to respond with the Mappah. W/o
this fear,  The Rema could have ignored the SA just as most Ashknezim today
ignore the Kaf haChayyim. But Rema knew the danger that any Minhag Ashkenaz
would be subject to homogenization.

The proof of this - and the irony -is that the Rema's biggest single source
is the Beis Yosef itself. In the BY, RY Karo is very plurlistic, but in his
sefer ps'akim viz. the SA, he  is  very partisan.

I guess you might say
There is a  Tradition in Sepharad  do away with others' traditions

Sepharadim might counter-attack and say [with some justification] that
Ashkenazim have a tradition to do away the Halacha in favor of minhag. and
on and on it goes.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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>>>REB says that the beris sinai is national. Which, I am
>>>condeming as giving no purpose or motive to observing >>>any
halakhah beyond the 7 mitzvos benei Noach outside >>>of the context of
a Jewish community in Israel.

>>I'm still not sure why Sifra saying keep them in chutz as a >>reminder,
>>isn't enough to justify this.
>
> Because why would a commemoration of beris Sinai
> outweigh beris Noach?
> What the Sifra is saying, taken at face value, it that the Jew > in chu"l is a ben Noach who is carrying on a reminder of
> another beris not in play. Where then do priorities lay?
>
> How can someone in chu"l eat the meat of a shechted
> animal that didn't yet stop quivering? Or allow himself to be > killed for something permitted to benei Noach?
>
> When a couple make aliyah, shouldn't they have to
> remarry, this time for real? And shouldn't every divorcee try > to get their get in EY, so that they would be permitted to
> remarry even if they later make aliyah?
>
> And the real problem with taking this Sifra to mean that
> beris Sinai is on a national level ONLY... The numerous
> baalei machavah who, contrary to REB speak of the role of > mitzvos in terms of perfecting ones tzelem
> E-lokim (R' Saadia Gaon, RYS), building a yedi'ah of the
> Borei (Rambam),
> getting close to Him (Ramchal, Besh"t), teaching
> fundamental truths in
> a way they can be internalized (RSRH's essay on
> symbolism in halakhah)
> and many other variants on the theme. Explaining the role > of mitzvos in terms of their impact on the person. REB simply runs counter to the general trend in Jewish Thought.
>
> :-)BBii!
> -Micha

I think we might have some confusion between a national-only brit and
a -nation-as-a-collection-of-individuals brit.

I'm not saying the brit is national only; if it were so, then only the
melech and the kohanim would have mitzvot, and the individuals would
just be there to do who knows what.

Rather, the brit is of the nation as a collection of individuals. This
is to say, the purpose of the Torah is not to perfect the individual,
but rather to create a society of perfected individuals.

Therefore, when in chutz, you keep the Torah (and not sheva mitzvot)
because you need to keep the mesorah alive for when we return to eretz
yisrael. If it were only the individual at stake, then in chutz, he'd
be a Noachide not a Jew. Davka because it's a brit of the nation, he
remains a Jew, because despite of the fact that he as an individual is
in chutz, the fact remains that there is still an am (ayin mem) at
stake.

I am thus puzzled why say that were the brit only nation, it'd mean
that in chutz a person ought to drop the 613. Rather, it seems to me,
if the brit were individual, then he ought to drop the 613; davka the
brit being national is why he keeps the 613 even in chutz.

As for REB (Rabbi Berkovits, right?) being contrary to the general
trend in Jewish thought, I fail to see how. Certainly, his views on
TSBP are out of the norm, and his Zionism is outside too, except for
DL. But his basic Jewish hashkafa in G-d Man and History is quite
ordinary, as far it seems to me. Dayan Grunfeld in his introduction to
RSRH's Horeb, say that God Man and History is an excellent exposition
of Jewish thought (so putting RSRH and REB as a machloket seems odd),
except for ONE point: REB trying to use kashrut as a means of training
one's self-control as preparation for the true battles of life, like a
soldier training in mock-battle for the real war. Rabbi Shalom Carmy
in his review of REB's Essential Essays, heavily critiques REB's TSBP
but says that it is dangerous to evaluate someone on his most
controversial views, as Rabbi Carmy says that G-d Man and History is
an excellent basic work of hashkafa, with few chiddushim but putting
them in an outstanding presentation.

Mikha'el Makovi

The machloket is famous. Anyway, two random thoughts:

(1)

In Nechama Leibowitz's chumash, it is apparent that according to
Shemot Rabbah, the mishkan rectified the egel because it restored the
relationship between us and Hashem. It's not that the Mishkan itself
rectified anything, but rather, the mere fact that Hashem gave us a
command to build one rectified it - I'd compare it to if a son and a
father get into a huge fight, and the son thinks his father doesn't
love him anymore, and the father calls the son and invites him to ice
cream - the ice cream is the mishkan. I.e., it didn't have to be davka
a mishkan; Hashem could have given us a command to wear blue
underwear, and the very fact that He still was giving us mitzvot,
shows He hadn't abandoned us.

By contrast, Tanchuma says that davka building the Mishkan itself, per
se, atoned for us.

(2)

We always want to drink a l'chaim to the hava amina. So if one holds
like Ramban that the mishkan came before the egel, what do we learn
from the two midrashim above? Shemot Rabbah: Well, Hashem gave us the
mitzvah of mishkan, then we did the egel; mahu d'teima that Hashem
doesn't love us anymore, kah mashma lan that we still have the mitzvah
of mishkan, i.e. we didn't lose it (or any other mitzvot). If the
father invites his son to ice cream, then they get into a fight, and
then father calls the son to the ice cream as if the fight didn't
happen. Tanchuma: After the egel, blowing the mitzvah of image-making
big-time, building the mishkan showed Hashem that we did teshuva, that
we were dedicating ourselves to whatever mitzvot He gave us,
especially here, where the mishkan = worshipping Hashem, the opposite
of the egel. I'd compare it to a guy who eats kosher everyday, but ate
a pork chop today but tomorrow, ate kosher again as if the pork chop
had never happened.

Mikha'el Makovi

(ATTENTION MODERATORS: This is a RESEND. Three digests have appeared since I posted it, so I'm guessing that you never received it. But it is possible that you did receive it, and are still discussing whether or not to publish it, in which case please ignore this copy.)


Before I begin, I'll quote what R' Shalom Simon wrote:
> I understand the source from this is Shabbos 129b.
> In fact, there's a nice little chart in the Artscroll
> Gemara on daf 129b1.  It shows that Ma'dim influences
> on Fridays between 6-7 pm.
I give many many thanks to him for pointing out that daf and that chart. It helped me a great deal to clarify and illustrate the thoughts below.

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:
> But presumably this reason for avoiding a certain hour
> to make Kiddush predates the institution of the secular
> hour by the Babylonians. For a discussion of this see
> http://tinyurl.com/yugh47  and http://tinyurl.com/9rb7r.
> Thus, if doing this is to make sense, the hour should be
> Shaos Z'manios, not (gentile) hours.

It seems to me that the source of your confusion lies in the words you have chosen. You keep getting hung up by the word "hour". Let's try rephrasing the problem without using that term.

It is not that a certain "hour" is inappropriate to say kiddush. Rather, Kiddush is to be avoided while under the influence of Mars.

When it is that we are under the influence of Mars? Well, Chazal knew (don't ask me how they knew) that seven specific "stars" exert their influence in a specific rotation. They follow one another in a specific sequence: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon. They each get the same amount of time, and this sequence is repeated 24 times each week.

Once you have that information, and also know something about the starting point (or at least about some midpoint), you can figure out... Well, no, you can't really figure it out yet. It would be like making a menora from a kikar of gold, without a scale with which to weigh out that kikar of gold. In other words, we need units of measurement, tools to measure those units, and enough mathematics to do some calculations.

Enter the Babylonians with their state-of-the-art arithmetic (I think their geometry and trig was pretty good too, but we don't need that for this) and behold: If the seven stars go through 24 cycles a week, then each turn lasts 1/24 of a day! An hour!

There's nothing holy or unholy about the Babylonians' math. It's just plain convenient. I don't see it as any different than getting my computer to figure out Sof Zman Shema.

Next: Are these Shaos Zmanios or Shaos Shavos? Well, consider this. We are not dealing with half of the morning. We are not dealing with the late afternoon. We are not dealing with anything that has anything to do with sunrise or sunset. Rather, we are dealing with the larger solar system as a whole. Each star gets a turn lasting 1/168 of a week.

Why would a star's turn be longer during a summer daytime than a winter daytime, or than a summer night? The season is irrelevant. Please let me point out some other halachos which also use Shaos Shavos: Waiting from meat to milk doesn't change with the seasons. Salting meat doesn't change with the seasons. Certain things are forbidden in the half-hour prior to a mitzvah's zman, and that doesn't change with the season.

I hope the above serves to explain what we mean by "hour" in this discussion.

But as I was developing these thoughts, other ideas arose in my mind.

(For the purposes of this post, let's presume that Bavel is located exactly 15 degrees east of Israel, okay? Thanks.) When it is a given time in Israel, it is an hour later in Bavel. That means that at the moment when Mars begins to have influence over Israel, it is ceasing to have influence over Bavel, and the Sun begins its influence of Bavel.

I had started to write that we are not dealing with Standard Time Zones here, but actually, we very much ARE dealing with time zones. Imagine the picture: Mars is exerting its influence over a strip of Earth, running from the north pole to the south, 15 degrees wide. The Sun is exerting its influence over another strip just to the east. It's *not* the case that these influences get turned on and off like a light switch. Rather, the influences stay put, the earth revolves, and each point on earth passes from one star's zone to the next. 

(Note: To the east of the Sun's zone lies Venus' zone of influence, and then Mercury's. Keep on going, and soon you'll be asking shailos about the Date Line. Let's not go there today, okay?)

Anyway, it is clear from all this, as I understand it, that the problem is not necessarily from 6:00 PM to 7:00 PM Standard Time, but rather according to whatever clocks the stars follow. I see no reason in logic or math which requires the stars' cycle to be based on the local midday. They could just as easily start at 7.3 minutes after the hour, or whenever. But it does seem clear from the Gemara Shabbos 129b that they do indeed happen to follow our customary calculations. (Perhaps this is similar to what the Rambam wrote about Shmita: "Divide the year by 7, and if there's no remainder, it is a shmita year; not because it has to be, but because that's how it worked out.")

I wanted to write more, but I can't remember the rest. Maybe I'll follow up with another post later. Thanks for reading.

Akiva Miller

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