Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 62

Fri, 08 Feb 2008

• 1. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (Micha Berger)
• 4. Chalav (was Polygamy) (Zev Sero)
• 5. Does God Change His Mind? (Richard Wolberg)
• 6. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Cave or desert island (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: MISHPATIM TRANSFORM HUMAN CONTACTS excerpted from an article by Rabbi Noson Weisz (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Shiluach Hakan (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Does God Change His Mind? (Michael Makovi)
• 13. Re: Cave or desert island (Michael Makovi)
• 14. Re: Cave or desert island (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Shiluach Hakan (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 16. Re: Chalav (was Polygamy) (Richard Wolpoe)

On Tue, February 5, 2008 2:06 pm, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Seems logical but is there any discussion of how and who to make such
: a determination - especially since it seems assumedly chazal made these
: based on their corner of the world and on anecdotal evidence  (e.g.
: how did Sanhedrin determine whether rov hatzibbur would accept a
: gzeirah?)

We need to keep pesaq and gezeiros distinct.

The topic under discussion was of pesaqim based on chazaqos disvara.

Gezeiros based on realia that changed depend on the phrasing of the
gezeirah.

If meat needs to be hosed down regularly between shechitah and
melichah because of pesaq about the efficacy of melichah, basar kafui
would be mutar -- the new reality demands a new pesaq; there is no
precedent.

If it's a gezeira, it would depend on the phrasing of the gezeirah. If
the gezeira includes the sevara, there is an implied conditional, and
basar kafui would still be mutar. If the sevara is after the gemara's
"close quote", and is post-facto explanation, then the gezeira still
stands even if the realia change. Although, as in refu'ah beshabbos,
we do figure out ways to minimize its conflict with other issues (like
oneg Shabbos).

Gezeiros based on mistakes still stand. Their authority is not about
correctness, but of the legislative power of Sanhedrin.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I just sent:
: Gezeiros based on mistakes still stand. Their authority is not about
: correctness, but of the legislative power of Sanhedrin.

Since the post to which I replied was posted, the subject of chalav
yisrael butter came up. The same question: pesaq vs gezeirah with
included explanation, unexplained gezeira, arises here too. For that
matter, permitting chalav hacompanies requires believing it was one of
the first two categories, and thus the gezeira wouldn't apply to USDA
milk.

And in the reverse, whether a mistake in not including them in the
gezeira makes them mutar even after our knowledge of the realia
changed.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Joel Rich:
:> Seems logical but is there any discussion of how and who to make
:> such
:> a determination - especially since it seems assumedly chazal made
:> these based on their corner of the world and on anecdotal evidence
:> (e.g. how did Sanhedrin determine whether rov hatzibbur would accept
:> a gzeirah?)


RMYG:
: I thought that that was after the fact. I believe an example of this
: is, IIRC, Tevillas Ezra.

RJR, post #2:
: I believe it is both - see Rambam Mamrim 2:5

Mamrim pereq 2 also asserts that minhagim start with the beis din,
whereas most teach that minhagim are from the ground up and only
afterwards ratified through rabbinic approval. It is unclear to me
that we necessarily hold like the Rambam WRT the scope of beis din's
role in creating practice. It could be that here too the Rambam
assigns a greater role than others would.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Micha Berger wrote:
> I just sent:
> : Gezeiros based on mistakes still stand. Their authority is not about
> : correctness, but of the legislative power of Sanhedrin.
> 
> Since the post to which I replied was posted, the subject of chalav
> yisrael butter came up. The same question: pesaq vs gezeirah with
> included explanation, unexplained gezeira, arises here too. For that
> matter, permitting chalav hacompanies requires believing it was one of
> the first two categories, and thus the gezeira wouldn't apply to USDA
> milk.

Not so.  As RMF explains it, the gezeira is in full force, and doesn't
depend on a high likelihood of actual adulteration.  In fact, it assumes
that the likelihood is *not* high, or there would be no need for a
gezeira, because it would be safek de'oraita.  Only when there's no
safek de'oraita, and without a gezeira we could drink the milk, did
Chazal legislate that we couldn't without "yisrael ro'ehu".  And since
this is a gezeira that rests on Chazal's legislative authority, its
terms should be interpreted strictly, so it only applies where they
said it did, and we shouldn't extend it to other circumstances misvara.

RMF's heter depends on two chidushim: 1. The gezera takes effect
only when the milk first passes into Jewish hands.  2. The laws
against adulteration, combined the realities of large-scale
production and the negligible magnitude of the profits that could
be made by adulterating the milk, add up to a certainty that
actually constitutes "yisrael ro'ehu".

To RMF, milk from USAn dairy companies *is* chalav yisrael.  It
isn't exempt from the gezeira, it fulfils it.  He doesn't explain
why, in that case, one should be mehader not to drink it, but it
seems to me that the reason is a recognition that these two points
are chidushim, and a reluctance to rely on them if one doesn't
have to.

As for the extent to which RMF held one must be mehader to get
"real" CY, it's not specified in the teshuvot, but one of his
sons (I forget which one) has said that the limit was $100 a year
(presumably in the dollars of whichever year the son heard this,
which I don't know).  If the difference in price is greater than
this amount then RMF held that one need not be mehader.  And this
applies only to milk and other dairy products, but not to cheese;
with cheese RMF held that one must be mehader to get "real" CY
only if the price is identical, but if the "real" CY is even a
little bit more expensive there's no need to get it, because in
addition to the other heterim one can be metzaref the shita of
Rabbenu Tam that cheese is like butter, and doesn't have to be CY.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

M.M. wrote:
Rav Berkovits explicitly says in G-d Man and History that Hashem
actually did experience that emotion; He does NOT act "as if" angry,
but rather, He actually is angry.

This (as many other similarities) is anthropomorphic. Not grasping  
anthropomorphisms,
as well as metaphors can and do lead to faulty conclusions. The old  
adage "The more
you know, the more you realize you don't know" is a good one to  
remember (as well as
the converse).
ri

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On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 01:13:39PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Because this is astrology, and it makes little sense to say that
: a planet's influence is affected by when the sun happens to rise or
: set in a particular location.  (Then again, this may indeed have been
: how the Maharil understood the hourly system, and therefore how the
: minhag he describes was in fact observed, regardless of how the
: Amoraim understood the original system.)

If it's astrology, then it should depend on the earth's and mars's year.
In addition to time of day. For that matter, astrology usually has to
do with where these things are in relation to each other. The moon vs
the constellations of the Zodiac, the planets in relation to eachother,
the moon *and the sun*.

If it's the same time every day, regardless of the year on earth or the
orbit of mars, it's likely NOT astrological.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
micha@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Tue, Jan 29, 2008 at 12:49:56PM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
...
: Tzelem elokim is not the ultimate tov itself, but rather the way to
: achieve it, according to my understanding, and Ramchal's too I think.

Hashem is the Ultimate Tov, which means that tzelem E-lokim must
perforce be the closest one could get to pure tov.
...
: Tzelem elokim = free will = allows us to do good and avoid evil and
: thus win the ultimate tov through our own effort and not as a gift.

Except that "closeness" to Hashem in a non-physical sense, the means by
which the Ramchal says one can yosheiv veneheneh miziv haSheinah, /is/
similarity.

...
: Rather, I'm saying that it is not the individual by himself that
: matters ultimately. In order to be good, I have to have a neighbor to
: be good to. Taking this to the logical conclusion, it means that
: society is intrinsically necessary for the Torah to be carried out.

That' not what you said, or, to be more exact, what RRWolpoe said that
you ran with, REB's position.

REB says that the beris sinai is national. Which, I am condeming as
giving no purpose or motive to observing any halakhah beyond the 7 mitzvos
benei Noach outside of the context of a Jewish community in Israel.

That's different than discussing the need for a community in general,
rather than the covenental community of Benei Yisrael. The individual's
refinement does require having a community to contribute toward. But
that's conflating points.

: This I believe is one of the axioms of TIDE; a life of seclusion and
: self-perfection is meaningless. One must involve himself in society
: and the world.

TIDE presumes that the purpose of Torah is to refine *the individual*,
thus the need for DE as part of being refined. It doesn't fit this
notion that beris sinai is exclusively national. (Rather than being
both, as I argued.)

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
micha@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 09:18:48PM -0500, Richard Wolberg wrote to
Avodah:
: (The following is a great vort and also a great reason for Avodah:)
...
: Theoretically, in a properly arranged Jewish world, instead of  
: discussing sports or the weather, or playing Jewish geography, we Jews  
: would debate concepts in Mishpatim. Instead of having to conduct  
: boring conversations, we would be in the enviable position of being  
: able to engage in heated discussions about deep ideas affecting the  
: human character with relative strangers (and email contacts). Instead  
: of gossip, the air would be filled with the sounds of heated debate  
: over basic human issues. If we are fortunate enough, perhaps someday,  
: most Jews will be in a position to resurrect that much-ridiculed  
: stereotype of the Talmudic scholar.

Ofren I think of the fun I have following conversations and playing
with ideas on Avodah and think that I am touching peshat in the pasuq
"lulei soresekha sha'ashuai".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
micha@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 10:02:43PM -0500, Moshe Shulman wrote:
: The view of the Ari is that one is required to do every mitzvah and 
: one could be m'galgil if one did not.

Even gittin? Or only chiyuvim?

Which, of course, would only apply here if we first resolve whether
shiluach haqen is a chiyuv, or a matir if you want the eggs, and if a
matir, whether there is anything "least of evils" about wanting the eggs.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 01:13:39PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> : Because this is astrology, and it makes little sense to say that
> : a planet's influence is affected by when the sun happens to rise or
> : set in a particular location.  (Then again, this may indeed have been
> : how the Maharil understood the hourly system, and therefore how the
> : minhag he describes was in fact observed, regardless of how the
> : Amoraim understood the original system.)
> 
> If it's astrology, then it should depend on the earth's and mars's
> year. In addition to time of day. For that matter, astrology usually
> has to do with where these things are in relation to each other.
> The moon vs the constellations of the Zodiac, the planets in
> relation to eachother, the moon *and the sun*.
> If it's the same time every day, regardless of the year on earth or the
> orbit of mars, it's likely NOT astrological.

But it's not just Mars, it's all the classical planets.  It's
certainly astrology, and you'll find it in the more comprehensive
astrology texts, as an early system.  It had the advantage of being
easy to calculate - each planet takes one hour, in strict rotation,
so the whole cycle repeats exactly every seven hours.  No need for
almanacks and fiddly calculations, or observations.  Any seven-year-
old can do it.  Just like biorhythms.  Of course nowadays when
astrology is a hobby, there's no fun in such a simple system, when
you can pull out the almanac and draw up a complicated birth chart...


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Thu, Feb 07, 2008 at 11:04:05PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: But it's not just Mars, it's all the classical planets.

Yes, but we were talking about maadim, so I used that as an example.

In short, I'm arguing that koach hamazalos means knowing what's overhead
and where. Dividing the day among the planets, or the week among them
(c.f. Saturday, Sunday, Monday... and saturn is called shabtai...) isn't
what the rishonim argue when they discuss mazalos, it's some other koach.
The hour is associated with the koach of the planet, but the planet itself
isn't doing anything interesting that our. For all I know, it's common
cause -- the hour is a time for oneshim, as is ma'adim a representative
of it. As Par'oh said, "Ki bera'ah hotzi'am..."

Thus, I would explain this gemara as being akin to the one about knowing
the times when midas harachamim dominates, and davening then.

After all, ein mazal leyisra'el, but who else is refraining from qiddush?

BTW, there is a chart of hours of the week and their corresponding
kokhavei lekhes at <http://www.dafyomi.co.il/shabbos/graph7.htm>.

Of course, by now you know I'm enoguh of a rationalist for this gemara
to cause serious squirming. But even someone with more mystical leanings
would have no more or less problem with my above argument that this
isn't a description of the usual koach hamazalos.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
micha@aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

On Feb 8, 2008 2:53 AM, Richard Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net> wrote:
> M.M. wrote:
> Rav Berkovits explicitly says in G-d Man and History that Hashem
> actually did experience that emotion; He does NOT act "as if" angry,
> but rather, He actually is angry.
>
> This (as many other similarities) is anthropomorphic. Not grasping
> anthropomorphisms,
> as well as metaphors can and do lead to faulty conclusions. The old adage
> "The more
> you know, the more you realize you don't know" is a good one to remember (as
> well as
> the converse).
> ri

I guess I don't see the problem. Rather, the negative attributes
approach seems to make Hashem into an automaton with no personality.
If Hashem really does get angry when we sin, nu? It's not a change in
His essence, it's merely a change in how He considers us, according to
our deeds. If a change in our behavior causes a change in G-d's
response, nu? What's the problem? His essence for sure cannot change,
but His essence is not in question here.

(I think I also like Rabbi Berkovits's approach because it was what I
was already thinking before I read his book.)

So I fail to see the theological problem with Rabbi Berkovits's
approach; adarabba, the negative attributes approach strips Hashem of
personality and moreover seems to be based on Aristotelian and
Muslim-Aristotelian philosophy, with no Torah basis that I know of.
(It already seems apparent to me from Kuzari that his emphasis on the
Divine flow is merely the Aristotelian notion except modified so that
it is for Jews only, and results from prayer and deeds rather than
intellect; but the basic idea behind it, and the very fact that it is
given so much prominence, seems an apologetic attempt at kashering the
Aristotelian notion.)

Mikha'el Makovi

> REB says that the beris sinai is national. Which, I am
> condeming as giving no purpose or motive to observing any
> halakhah beyond the 7 mitzvos benei Noach outside of the
> context of a Jewish community in Israel.
>Micha

I'm still not sure why Sifra saying keep them in chutz as a reminder,
isn't enough to justify this.

Mikha'el Makovi

On Fri, Feb 08, 2008 at 11:09:46AM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
:> REB says that the beris sinai is national. Which, I am
:> condeming as giving no purpose or motive to observing any
:> halakhah beyond the 7 mitzvos benei Noach outside of the
:> context of a Jewish community in Israel.

: I'm still not sure why Sifra saying keep them in chutz as a reminder,
: isn't enough to justify this.

Because why would a commemoration of beris Sinai outweigh beris Noach?
What the Sifra is saying, taken at face value, it that the Jew in chu"l
is a ben Noach who is carrying on a reminder of another beris not in
play. Where then do priorities lay?

How can someone in chu"l eat the meat of a shechted animal that didn't
yet stop quivering? Or allow himself to be killed for something permitted
to benei Noach?

When a couple make aliyah, shouldn't they have to remarry, this time
for real? And shouldn't every divorcee try to get their get in EY,
so that they would be permitted to remarry even if they later make aliyah?

And the real problem with taking this Sifra to mean that beris Sinai is
on a national level ONLY... The numerous baalei machavah who, contrary
to REB speak of the role of mitzvos in terms of perfecting ones tzelem
E-lokim (R' Saadia Gaon, RYS), building a yedi'ah of the Borei (Rambam),
getting close to Him (Ramchal, Besh"t), teaching fundamental truths in
a way they can be internalized (RSRH's essay on symbolism in halakhah)
and many other variants on the theme. Explaining the role of mitzvos
in terms of their impact on the person. REB simply runs counter to the
general trend in Jewish Thought.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nearly all men can stand adversity,
micha@aishdas.org        but if you want to test a man's character,
http://www.aishdas.org   give him power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      -Abraham Lincoln

> On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 10:02:43PM -0500, Moshe Shulman wrote:
> : The view of the Ari is that one is required to do every mitzvah and
> : one could be m'galgil if one did not.
R' MB: 
> Even gittin? Or only chiyuvim?

How about V'heishiv Es Hagezeilah?

KT,
MYG

On Feb 7, 2008 7:32 PM, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

> Micha Berger wrote:
> > I just sent:
> > : Gezeiros based on mistakes still stand. Their authority is not about
> > : correctness, but of the legislative power of Sanhedrin.
> >


See Tosafos on:
Mayyim Acharonim
Dancing ON Shabbas
andsee IM Orach Chayyyim pt. 2 #100 on the above Tosafos



>
> > Since the post to which I replied was posted, the subject of chalav
> > yisrael butter came up. The same question: pesaq vs gezeirah with
> > included explanation, unexplained gezeira, arises here too. For that
> > matter, permitting chalav hacompanies requires believing it was one of
> > the first two categories, and thus the gezeira wouldn't apply to USDA
> > milk.
>
> Not so.  As RMF explains it, the gezeira is in full force, and doesn't
> depend on a high likelihood of actual adulteration.  In fact, it assumes
> that the likelihood is *not* high,....Zev Sero


My understanidng of the 1st teshuva is different:

The Gemara explictly states that a Jew need not watch - he just has to be
present and ABLE to watch. So if while a Jew is sitting in a position that
he he cannot see it the chalav is STILL OK so long as he CAN see when he
stands up... This is due to the dynamic of mirsas.  RMF takes this Mirsas
dyanamic and says the same is true for the USDA that IT creatres the same
Mirsas.  Thus the gezeiras is in full effect, but the USDA is merely a proxy
for Jew who is not lookiing but ABLE to see if he chooses.

Ergo, In countries or locales that have no mirsas factor haeliv akum is
still every bit as unkosher as  it has been since the time of the Talmud.
<http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org>



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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