Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 60

Thu, 07 Feb 2008

• 1. Kaddish (RallisW@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Responsibilities to our host country - maharatz chiyut (T613K@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Responsibilities to our host country - maharatz chiyut (Gershon Dubin)
• 4. Re: Why Jewish Women should NOT wear a Burka (Chana Luntz)
• 5. Ramp On! (Richard Wolberg)
• 6. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: "Does God Change His Mind?" (Micha Berger)
• 8. The influence of Nusach Sefard on Nusach Ashkenaz (RallisW@aol.com)
• 9. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. and 7 p.m. (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Mussar (Micha Berger)

Is anyone aware of any responsa, allowing an entire tzibur to  recite a 
Kaddish Yosom after Yizkor?



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<<        I wonder where within the  definition of hakarat hatov is the
chiyuv to vote (which is a voluntary act)  found?  There does not seem to
be in this list  any chiyuv to  participate in the public welfare.>>[--RJR]

>>The chiyuv to  vote is purely self-interest-dirshu es shlom ha'ir...ki
bishloma..   <<[--RGD]





>>>>
I don't agree that it's "purely self-interest."  I  think that out of hakaras 
hatov, we have a duty to vote for the candidates who  will most benefit our 
host country. (There is no stira btw between saying "we  should vote for the 
best candidate for America" and saying, "we should vote for  the best candidate 
for the Jews."  Whatever is best for the Jews is  automatically best for the 
country, because Hashem blesses those who bless the  Jews.)


--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good hair
Best for the Jews, best for  America



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<<Whatever is best for the Jews is automatically best for the country, because Hashem blesses those who bless the Jews.)>>

It's not quite as metaphysical as that;  if you look up the pasuk that I quoted, you'll see that it is in fact self-interest.  Having the best person for office in our host countries benefits us along the lines of "is it good for the Jews?" in the classic formulation, rather than any abstract beracha such as you describe.

It's in Yirmiya 29:7

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com


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RSB writes:

> > why wearing a Burka (or equivalent) is NOT appropriate for a Jewish 
> > woman.
> >
> >Issues like "Bal Tosif"; the true meaning of Tzni'ut; Chukot HaGoyim
and 
> >other relevant issues could be discussed.

And later RMM writes:

> It's simply stupid, that's all. Not to mention anti-Torah.

Sorry for clearly being stupid, but why is it stupid, or, for that
matter anti-Torah, any more than any other chumra?

Now perhaps it is rather ironic that I am the person making this point
here - because those of you who have been around for a while will know
that I am not crazy about the tendency towards chumra in general - and
have written numerous pieces here on Avodah to that effect (some quoting
gemoras about fools and darkness, others talking about how chumras in
one area almost inevitably result in kulos in other areas).  And the
same points can be made here as with any other chumra.  In fact the
article RSB quoted indicated precisely such a case, where the chumra of
dress clearly resulted in a kula in shalom bayis to the extent that the
husband sought a divorce.

But, why is this chumra any worse than all the other chumros out there
in our chumradik society?  Many of the other chumros people indulge in,
particularly, as I have frequently pointed out on this list, in kashrus,
also severely impact shalom bayis and relations ben adam l'chavero.  In
fact, I really can't see why these women taking upon themselves a
personal chumra to wear a burka is any worse than the chumros vis a vis
tznius imposed by your common garden Beis Ya'akov - at least the women
are themselves deciding their own level and doing it out of a genuine
yiras shamayim, and not having chumra imposed upon them.

And while I agree there are baal tosif issues to the extent that these
women do not understand that this is a chumra and not halacha, again I
can't see why this is any worse than the standard behaviour of Beis
Ya'akov - who again rarely teach that what they are demanding of their
girls is a chumra (in almost any area - the way dinim is taught in
general is a complete mishmash of chumra and basic halacha and all
sorts), or for that matter the endless list of chumros demanded by the
various yeshivos of their bochrim and arvreichim or the various kashrus
agencies etc etc.  If anything, to wear a burka is better sourced (the
Rambam seems to be suggesting something very similar and the Shulchan
Aruch follows his loshon) than the requirement to wear a black hat or
black stockings versus cream stockings or not to wear denim or, maybe,
even taking trumos and ma'asros in chutz l'aretz.

> Mikha'el Makovi

With all the different responses regarding a Mum, did the following  
occur to anyone?
HaShem made the mum the way he is for whatever unknown reasons.  
Therefore, it only
follows that in His infinite wisdom, since it was His will for the mum  
to be a mum, it was
also His will that the mum was disqualified from the Avodah. Just as  
it is incomprehensible
why God created the mum to begin with, it is also incomprehensible  
(although in a lesser
degree) why God prohibited the mum (Kohen) to serve.
ri

On Wed, February 6, 2008 1:32 pm, R Zev Sero wrote:
:> A couple of us were once invited to a shtiebl to run a singing
:> minyan
:> for Qabbalas Shabbos and Maariv. The rav was getting antsy at a few
:> minutes to 6 EDT

: EDT?  That's Summer Time, right?  He was observing this minhag
: according to Summer Time?

I should have typed "EST", it was winter time. Said rav doesn't daven
minchah before 7 in the summer. And IIRC, he keeps this custom at 7
EDT, only 6 EST.

My point was about the impossibility of Chazal assuming timezones.
:                                                In any case, in the
: Greater NYC area the adjustment due to Railroad time is 4 minutes, so
: mean noon is at 11:56, and the "correct" hour of Mars is 5:56 to 6:56.
: (In the eastern reaches of Queens it's 5 minutes, while in parts west
: of Elizabeth it's 3 minutes.)

And even assuming the 6th standard hour after noon, one would need to
also correct for the equation of time (a/k/a the analemma, the drift
of noon as the year progresses; see
<http://www.analemma.com/Pages/framesPage.html> for an animated
explanation).

I don't see how a maamar that old would presume an average noon.

OTOH, RMF holds WRT zeman minchah that chatzos is an average noon. So
maybe...

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Thu, January 31, 2008 9:29 pm, Cantor Richard Wolberg raised the
question of charatah and how it does not imply change:
:                                     Being sorry for something does
: not mean that a change has occurred; it simply means that there is
: regret for something that has taken place.

Attributing an emotion to HQBH doesn't mean He actually experienced
that emotion. (At least, in any hashkafah that survived to this day.)
If "charon apo" means that Hashem acted in a manner we would attribute
to anger if it were a person, then charatah is also not actually even
lamenting the need for an earlier decision.

On Mon, February 4, 2008 2:08 pm, Michael Makovi wrote:
: Nevertheless, when He actually interacts with the world, He *must*
: interact with that particular slice of time and place. When He talks
: to a prophet, for example, He is talking to the prophet at that
: moment; not an hour before and not an hour later, and not a mile in
: front and not a mile in back.

I disagree. Hashem is one, He performed one act. With no space or
time, what separates His actions into multiplicity? We call that act
Maaseh Bereishis. What we feel over time are different effects of that
one act. HQBH didn't start a movie, He created a 4D sculpture. (As
discussed in the aforementioned blog entry
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/01/divine-timelessness.shtml>.)

It's also why "ma'aseh bereishis" is a term for study not only of how
the world was created, but how it exists and operates.

"Hamchadeish betuvo bekhol yom tamid ma'aseh bereishis."

When we change some stretch of space-time, the consequences of Maaseh
Bereishis will change. But HQBH Himself can not. It's meaningless to
speak of change of the Creator of Time. Or even multiple acts.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

 
Prof. Levine wrote:

> I heard Rabbi Bamberger of Sherushei Minhag Ashkenaz fame say at a 
> talk that in the time of the Rishonim many did wear Tefillin during 
> Musaf of RH.

 
Actually The name of the Rav is Binyomin Shlomo Hamburger of the Machon 
Moreshes Ashkenaz.


The Taz says to keep them on, in places where Kesser is not said.
 
It's not only the Turei Zohov but the Ramoh.


> He said that the custom of taking them off before Musaf 
> stems from the fact that the some places say Keser during kedusha and 
> that one should not have two crowns.

This is an explicit Beis Yosef.




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Micha Berger wrote:

> And even assuming the 6th standard hour after noon, one would need to
> also correct for the equation of time [...]
> I don't see how a maamar that old would presume an average noon.

Kiddush Hachodesh does (for determining a molad zaken).


> OTOH, RMF holds WRT zeman minchah that chatzos is an average noon. So
> maybe...

WRT *all* zemanim.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Micha Berger wrote:

> And even assuming the 6th standard hour after noon, one would need to
> also correct for the equation of time [...]
> I don't see how a maamar that old would presume an average noon.

Kiddush Hachodesh does (for determining a molad zaken).


> OTOH, RMF holds WRT zeman minchah that chatzos is an average noon. So
> maybe...

WRT *all* zemanim.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Micha Berger wrote:

> And even assuming the 6th standard hour after noon, one would need to
> also correct for the equation of time [...]
> I don't see how a maamar that old would presume an average noon.

Kiddush Hachodesh does (for determining a molad zaken).


> OTOH, RMF holds WRT zeman minchah that chatzos is an average noon. So
> maybe...

WRT *all* zemanim.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Micha Berger wrote:

> And even assuming the 6th standard hour after noon, one would need to
> also correct for the equation of time [...]
> I don't see how a maamar that old would presume an average noon.

Kiddush Hachodesh does (for determining a molad zaken).


> OTOH, RMF holds WRT zeman minchah that chatzos is an average noon. So
> maybe...

WRT *all* zemanim.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Micha Berger wrote:

> And even assuming the 6th standard hour after noon, one would need to
> also correct for the equation of time [...]
> I don't see how a maamar that old would presume an average noon.

Kiddush Hachodesh does (for determining a molad zaken).


> OTOH, RMF holds WRT zeman minchah that chatzos is an average noon. So
> maybe...

WRT *all* zemanim.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, February 5, 2008 7:54 pm, R Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
: What is lacking in Reb Micha's otherwise masterly presentation of the
: Mussar Derech, is the emphasis that it places on /yirah/: Both /yiras
: ha'romemus/ and /yiras ha'onesh/, but generally under the umbrella of
: /yiras shomayim/.

I disagree that yir'ah is a defining feature.

I received the following from R Prof Yitzchok Levine via his Daily RYS
emails. It's from a translation of R' Dov Katz's Tenu'as haMussar (vol
1):
> From The Mussar Movement, Volume I, part 2, pages 268 - 269.

> Yet he [RYS] realized that the essential precondition for perfection
> is the fear of G-d. Even to become refined in one's character traits
> and in deeds between man and man is impossible without the fear of
> G-d. Just as the mitzvot between man and G-d are without any value
> whatsoever if they do not derive from the faith in, and fear of, G-d,
> and are not directed towards G-d, so is the fulfillment of mitzvot
> between man and man entirely without value if they are based on
> humanistic principles alone and are not bound up with belief in, and
> the pure fear of, G-d. All rational argumentation and humanistic
> principles come to naught when confronted by the temptations of
> reality. They shatter against the rock of desire for money and honor
> and the enticements of jealousy, hatred and other human inclinations.
> Only the fear of G-d, R. Israel believed, was powerful enough to
> restrain man and curb his nature and impulses. Moreover, fear of G-d
> is the main factor even in faith. Belief has no stability or strength
> if devoid of fear, for so it is written: "And the people feared the
> L-rd and they believed in the L-rd." Belief is not antecedent to fear:
> fear precedes belief. Without fear it would only be natural for belief
> to be swept aside by turbulent passions and become utterly erased from
> the human heart. Without fear, beliefs might become mistaken and
> distorted and follow the bent of human nature and desires, and assume
> grotesque forms. Only the fear of G-d can bring forth faith and make
> it manifest. Fear resembles a compass charting the course which faith
> is to follow.

However, this email was one section after more than *50* posts of bein
adam lachaveiro. Yes, yir'as Hashem is important, but I didn't deem
the role as a defining one in Mussar, given the relative space given
it in Or Yisrael (RYS), Or Rashaz (Kelm) Madreigas haAdam (Novhardok)
or Or haTzafun (Slabodka). Or, for that matter, the aforementioned ThM
or later, RSW's Alei Shur.

BTW, I disagree with RYGB's description of yir'ah. The Ramchal makes a
chiluq between yir'as ha'onesh and yir'as Hashem, and within the
latter, between yir'as hacheit and yir'as haromemus. My point of
disagreement is with RYGB's calling "yir'as ha'onesh" a kind of
"yir'as Hashem".

AIUI:

yir'as ha'onesh: fear of punishment. Not real yir'ah, but good enough
in a pinch as a motivator. What I wrote about generational differences
changing the starting position, and thus shaping the path from where
one is to where Hashem wants us to be impacts on the role of yir'as
ha'onesh greatly. RSWolbe in general plays down its value to people
living today.

yir'as hacheit: fear of wronging the Yedid Nefesh Av haRachaman. Just
as you don't want to wrong any /person/ you have a strong relationship
with. Not because they will punish you, but of committing the wrong in
and of itself. I believe that this is what RAEK makes akin to the
yir'ah of having my child perched on my shoulders while dancing on
simchas Torah.

yir'as haromemus: awe

In general, it would seem that "yir'ah" means "awareness of the
magnitude". When dealing with something that has potentially negative
consequences, that great magnitude yields fear. Otherwise, it causes
awe.

But yes, an attribute (even if I won't call it part of the essence) of
mussar is that awareness, and how it generates simchah. After all, you
have more yir'ah at your child's wedding than at someone else's. But
it's that very awareness of the momentousness of the event in your
life that makes it a more joyous occasion for you.

I also skipped other attributes of tenu'as hamussar, like which
pe'ulos they tended to use to get from real to ideal, etc...

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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