Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 57

Wed, 06 Feb 2008

• 1. Why Jewish Women should NOT wear a Burka (or equivalent) (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 2. Mishnah Berurah on O.C. (JoshHoff@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Rabbiner Hirsch and the Mishna Brura (Michael Makovi)
• 4. The influence of Nusach Sephard on Nusach Ashkenaz (RallisW@aol.com)
• 5. The influence of Nusach Sephard on Nusach Ashkenaz (RallisW@aol.com)
• 6. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 7. Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. ? 7 p.m. (Sholom Simon)
• 8. Ramp On! (Richard Wolberg)
• 9. Re: Ramp On! (dhojda1@juno.com)
• 10. Re: Ramp On! (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 11. missing yahrtzeit (JRich@Sibson.com)
• 12. Responsibilities to our host country - maharatz chiyut (Gershon Dubin)
• 13. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (Rich, Joel)
• 14. Re: Not Making Kiddush Between 6 p.m. ? 7 p.m. (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: [Areivim] Polygamy (David Riceman)
• 16. Shiluach Hakan (Alan Rubin)

Kulam Chachamim; Kulam Nevonim etc..  That's probably the reason that this 
issue hasn't been discussed (AFAIK) on Avodah.

I would greatly appreciate it if the membership, which includes many 
Talmidei Chachamim, would spend some time on discussing the various reasons 
why wearing a Burka (or equivalent) is NOT appropriate for a Jewish woman.

Issues like "Bal Tosif"; the true meaning of Tzni'ut; Chukot HaGoyim and 
other relevant issues could be discussed.

The reason I'm asking is that while the answer is obvious to the Talmidei 
Chachamim here, many others don't realize that there are problems with this 
issue -- and what they are.

As Avodah is publicly available, this would make the material also available 
to other women who are asking this question and aren't getting answers.

A more detailed article can be found at (as suggested by R' Aryeh Stein):

http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m11&;SecId=11&AId=57786&ATypeId=1

and a response:

http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m12&;SecId=12&AId=57829&ATypeId=1

IMHO, when issues like this fall by the wayside without appropriate halachic 
and hashkafic reaction, many women may fall into the false belief that such 
behavior (and similar) are actually not only good - but recommended.

Please respond.

Thank you.

Shoshana L. Boublil

There is an apocryphal story, of which I have heard different versions,that  
the Ch.Ch. either planned to write or actually wrote a Mishnah Berurah-type 
work  on Y.D. but either dropped the idea or destroyed the MS, either because 
people  would become their own rabbis, or rabbis wouldn't learn the sugyos 
properly.  



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> My point is that Rav Hirsch would NOT have "seen the publication of the Mishna Berurah on OC alone." He would have seen ALL the seforim which the Chofetz Chayim wrote.
>
> Akiva Miller

Good point. But the fact remains that the Mishna Berurah itself is on
OC alone, a fact which I think Rav Hirsch would have protested.

But come to think of it, I have an objection to what I have said: The
Chofetz Chaim spent some 20 years or so writing the MB (if I remember
correctly), so I cannot imagine that Rav Hirsch would have been
critical of the CC himself and demanded he spend another 60 years on
the other three parts of the SA.

Rather, Rav Hirsch would have demanded that people study the rest of
the SA besides OC, even without an MB thereon. (Or perhaps he'd tell
everyone to study the Aruch haShulchan instead. I don't know.)

Mikha'el Makovi

Two things that I see as areas where N"S has influenced N"A;
 
Not wearing Tefillin on Chol HaMoed all together, taking the tefillin off 
before Musaf on Rosh Chodesh.
 
Having more than one person say kaddish at the same time.



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Are there any other areas where this occurred?



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R' Joel Rich:
> Seems logical but is there any discussion of how and who to make such a
> determination - especially since it seems assumedly chazal made these
> based on their corner of the world and on anecdotal evidence  (e.g. how
> did Sanhedrin determine whether rov hatzibbur would accept a gzeirah?)

I thought that that was after the fact. I believe an example of this is,
IIRC, Tevillas Ezra.

KT,
MYG

I understand the source from this is Shabbos 129b.

In fact, there's a nice little chart in the Artscroll Gemara on daf 
129b1.  It shows that Ma'dim influences on Fridays between 6-7 pm.

However -- it also shows other times where Ma'dim is influential -- 
for example: Wednesdays between 10am and 11am (or Sundays from 
noon-1pm).   So, suppose a Yom Tov is on a Wednesday (or Sunday), 
would/does anybody refrain from kiddush between those hours?

-- Sholom

R' Akiva Miller asked to have the following completed:
"If every ritual in Judaism was designed to teach us some sort of  
lesson," then there would be no need for chukim and the mystery of  
many of the mitzvos would be eliminated.
ri

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but it seems to me that the reasoning behind not allowing the handicapped Cohen to serve (while not barring those with blemished character, by the way) is the same as the one for insisting that the animals be unblemished and that the keylim be beautiful: 

People are superficial. They honor that which is physically and superficially attractive and believe that items and people who are physically attractive are "superior."

HASHEM wanted that the Mikdash be revered by all, including the masses.

True, in a perfect, enlightened world, we would judge people by the content of their character more than by their outward appearance.

But, . . .
 
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R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> Just think what He could have accomplished if He had just
> allowed handicapped kohenim to serve (and women and old folks).  
>
> Or maybe there is a different message there, that you are
> missing? And that is, every one of us has a mission to perform
> on this earth -- but we don't all have the SAME mission. Maybe
> a woman, an elder -- and yes, a handicapped person -- was put
> on earth to fulfill some OTHER mission that Hashem had in mind,
> besides the Avodah.
>
> Why assume that everyone is fit to do every job?  That is a
> modern-day  PC prejudice of its own -- the assumption that
> everyone can do anything. Would you want to see handicapped
> people in the army?  Blind men leading troops into battle,
> with seeing-eye dogs? Women in the NBA? Elderly quarterbacks
> playing in the Super Bowl?  

Seeing the battle is an intrinsic job requirement for a person who would lead the troops. If he is dependent on a seeing-eye dog, then he is most likely unable to do the job. He would be disqualified not because he is blind, but because he is unable to be aware of what's going on fast enough. If he can somehow compensate so that he *is* aware of what's going on, then he is qualified to do the job.

So too for elderly quarterbacks. If they can demonstrate that they can run fast, fend off tackles, yada yada yada, then there's no disqualification.

The question here is: What is lacking in the avodah if the kohen is not good-looking?

> So what is the purpose of a handicapped kohen, if he can't run
> up the ramp and can't bring korbanos? Well, he could be a
> talmid chacham and teach others. He could be a teacher, a guide,
> a wise counselor. ...

With all due respect, this sounds rather condescending. Sort of like, "What good is it to be a woman if she can't be a CEO? Well, she could be a teacher." I do not mean to demean teachers, but why are her options being arbitrarily limited? What is there about being a CEO that she can't do, and what is there about the avodah that a handicapped kohen can't do?

Of course, there are some handicaps which clearly ARE disqualifications. If a certain act has to be done with the kohen's hand, and this kohen does not have any hands, he is clearly disqualified, and I can't imagine who might have a problem with that.

But a blotch on the face? What does that prevent one from doing? THAT's what this thread is asking.

Akiva Miller
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someone told me they heard from R' Frand that if you miss a yahrtzeit you have to observe that day and the prior day for all years in the future.

Has anyine heard of this?

KTJoel Rich


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From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>

<<        I wonder where within the definition of hakarat hatov is the
chiyuv to vote (which is a voluntary act) found?  There does not seem to
be in this list  any chiyuv to participate in the public welfare.>>

The chiyuv to vote is purely self-interest-dirshu es shlom ha'ir...ki
bishloma..

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

 

R' Joel Rich:
> Seems logical but is there any discussion of how and who to make such 
> a determination - especially since it seems assumedly chazal made 
> these based on their corner of the world and on anecdotal evidence  
> (e.g. how did Sanhedrin determine whether rov hatzibbur would accept a

> gzeirah?)

I thought that that was after the fact. I believe an example of this is,
IIRC, Tevillas Ezra.

KT,
MYG

_______-------------------------------------------------
I believe it is both - see Rambam Mamrim 2:5

KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

Sholom Simon wrote:
> I understand the source from this is Shabbos 129b.

The source in Torah for the hourly system of planetary influence,
yes.  But the gemara doesn't mention anything about kiddush.   The
earliest source for not saying kiddush in the hour of Mars is the
Maharil, and it's explained at length in the Machtzis Hashekel.
This hourly system is found in goyishe astrology books as well.


> However -- it also shows other times where Ma'dim is influential -- 
> for example: Wednesdays between 10am and 11am (or Sundays from 
> noon-1pm).   So, suppose a Yom Tov is on a Wednesday (or Sunday), 
> would/does anybody refrain from kiddush between those hours?

No, there's no such minhag.  That gemara itself gives the explanation:
we only worry about the hour of Mars when it's customary to worry about
it, but if there's no custom we don't make one up just to be consistent.

PS: The original minhag as the Maharil brings it is to "hurry and
make kiddush under Jupiter and not under Mars".  So the main point of
the minhag was a positive one - to make kiddush before 6pm.  He
doesn't say that if one missed this time one should wait for 7 and
the hour of the Sun.  But as it's brought down in the Magen Avraham
and from there in the SA Harav it becomes a negative minhag, not to
make kiddush under Mars, and from there comes the L minhag of waiting
lechatichila until 7 before making kiddush, which seems to be missing
the point of the original Maharil.  It's odd.

PPS: I once went looking for this Maharil inside and couldn't find it.
But I only spent a short time on the search, and maybe I was looking
in the wrong place.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
> A third category is when they were making scientific declarations. 
> Besides the oft-mentioned point about killing lice on Shabbos, I am 
> bothered by how many people butter made of non-supervised milk, even 
> though they are otherwise makpid on Cholov Yisroel.
> (Even though it is difficult, "Nevertheless, butter can be made from camel milk." -- http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/X6528E/X6528E04.htm on the website of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations.)
>   
See H. Ma'achaloth Assuroth 3:15.  Even if you think the UN is more 
reliable than the Rambam on scientific facts, the halachic question is 
whether Hazal made a gezeirah, and they didn't have the benefit of the 
UN's expertise in camel milk.

David Riceman

While browsing in a bookstore a few days ago I came across a book on
Shiluach Hakan. I was a little surprised that there was enough to
write about this mitzvah to fill a book I had a brief look through its
pages and I was a little surprised by some of what I read.

Now if you think about it there are three attitudes one could have to
this mitzvah.

1. To actively seek out nests to perform the mitzvah on.
2. To not actively seek out nests but to perform the mitzvah if one
came across one
3. To only perform the mitzvah if one needed eggs from a nest.

I had always assumed that No 3 was correct. And if the mitzvah is at
least partly to do with minimising pain to animals then to send away
the mother bird when one does not really need the eggs is
contradictory. Now I only glanced at the book for a few seconds but I
was surprised that there could even be a hava aminah that 1 was
correct or that there was a body of opinion that 2 was correct.

 I was also surprised that there was an opinion that everyone should
try and perform this at least once in their life. There was a
suggestion (R. Vital?) that one would be brought back as a gilgul
until one had performed every mitzvah. According to this opinion would
one be brought back as a gilgul if one had not performed the
commandments relating to eshes yefas toar? Now I am aware of the
promised rewards for shiluach hakan but I cannot believe we are
supposed to be tramping through woods frightening birds to secure long
life.


Alan Rubin


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