Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 50

Wed, 30 Jan 2008

• 1. Re: "Borei nefashos rabbos VECHESRONAM" (Michael Kopinsky)
• 2. Re: "Borei nefashos rabbos VECHESRONAM" (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: cave or desert island (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: assisted suicide (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. Re: becha yaaminu (T613K@aol.com)
• 6. Re: becha yaaminu (Michael Makovi)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] Cutting of olive trees. (Michael Makovi)
• 8. assisted suicide (Gershon Dubin)
• 9. kim li (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: kim li (JRich@Sibson.com)
• 11. Re: Lo Bashamayim Hee (Richard Wolpoe)

On Jan 28, 2008 11:16 PM, Richard Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net> wrote:

> Someone wrote:
> *That is indeed one of the interpretations given by the Rishonim, but
> another one does indeed understand "v'hesronan" as "defects" or "lacks".*
> This brings to mind Isaiah 45:7  "I form the light, and create darkness: I
> make peace, and create evil;<http://www.godrules.net/library/topics/topic670.htm> I
> am the Lord Who does all these things."
> Actually, the term *evil* (ra) here denotes calamity and suffering. These
> serve as means of punishment for the sins of man. Moral evil, on the other
> hand, does not proceed from God, but is the result of man's actions. Moral
> evil is an absence of God's morality. In most Siddurim, the phrase is
> changed to 'create all things.' Some commentators have detected in this
> verse, in which God is declared to be the universal Creator of both light
> and darkness, good and evil, a directr allusion to, and intentional
> contradiction of , the Persian belief in dualism according to which the
> world is ruled by two antagonistic gods, Ahura Mada, the god of light and
> goodness, and Ahriman, the god of darkness and evil. (Though we have Soton,
> it is never referred to as a god). More modern exegetes doubt the allusion
> and understand the declaration as a general denial of all polytheistic
> systems -- not just Persian dualism.
>

It is clear that Chazal's  inclusion of this pasuk in birchos Krias Shma of
Yom and Layla had this intent ("laafukei midaas hakofrim she'omrim shemi
shebara or lo bara choshech.").  But who says that's what the pasuk itself
is referring to?  Was dualism even a popular belief in the times of Isaiah?
Looking at the pasuk in context (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/k/k1045.htm),
it is part of a long statement about the absolute power of G-d, and that
there are no other gods.  In that sense, it is a denial of polytheism, just
as Sh'ma Yisrael is a denial of polytheism.  But I find no need to
understand it as a polemic against a particular religion not prevalent at
the time of Isaiah.

KT,
Michael
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On Tue, January 29, 2008 1:50 pm, R Michael Kopinsky wrote:
: It is clear that Chazal's  inclusion of this pasuk in birchos Krias
: Shma of Yom and Layla had this intent ("laafukei midaas hakofrim
: she'omrim shemi shebara or lo bara choshech.").  But who says that's
: what the pasuk itself is referring to?  Was dualism even a popular
: belief in the times of Isaiah?

The pasuq in context is a nevuah to be relayed (across centuries, if
one won't buy into Deutero-Isaiah) to Cyrus see 45:1 "lemeshikho,
leKoreish". Zoroastrianism started out monotheistic, later introduced
two demiurges representing light/good and darkness/evil. Ahura Mazda
(Lord Wisdom, the Deity) and Spetna Menyu (the good demiurge) got
combined, leaving a good creator and an evil god called Angra Menyu
(sometimes Ahriman or Hariman).

In Bava Basra, in the R' Chanina ben Dosa stories, Hariman ben Lilis
is the juggler he encounters. The Gra draws the connection. See
Peirush al Kama Agados, most readily available as the appendix of The
Juggler and the King.)

Cyrus was a Zoroastrian at a time when dualism had just finally won over.

I also think we can relate the Purim story to the travails of
Zoroastrian monotheism. If Achashveirosh was Xerxes, then he presided
over the death of true monotheism in ancient Zoroastrian religion.
That would explain who Haman was in terms of priesthood -- one of
those who watered down Zoroastrianism with a more Hindu outlook -- and
why he hated Jews. It would also explain why the attack on the Jews is
not a major event in Persian recorded history. They saw it as a
sideline in a general attack on monotheism.

Back from the tour of AZ... Yes, the pasuq was explicitly written to a
Zoroastrian dualist, at a time when people could still recall their
monotheist past. Quite likely the original intent of the pasuq.

Some notes from my shiurim on the siddur. Both the Ri bar Yaqar and
the Avudraham (the two rishonim most vocal on peirush hatefillos) draw
the parallel between light and good, and darkness and evil. Evil is
the absence of good; just as dark is an absence of light. They are
created the way a hole is dug -- Hashem provided more empty space than
light, more potential than fulfilled good.

They also both take "vechesronam" to refer to the limitations and
needs of the "nefashos rabos". Now that I opened my Otzar Rishonim al
haSiddur, I see neither was pulled from my own imagination.

: Looking at the pasuk in context
: (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/k/k1045.htm),
: it is part of a long statement about the absolute power of G-d, and
: that
: there are no other gods.  In that sense, it is a denial of polytheism,
: just
: as Sh'ma Yisrael is a denial of polytheism.  But I find no need to
: understand it as a polemic against a particular religion not prevalent
: at
: the time of Isaiah.
:
: KT,
: Michael
: _______________________________________________
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:


SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

 
 
RMB wrote:
 
: He created his own society in a rural area, his compound of tents,
:  family, employees... This balance of isolation and engagement is the
: ideal.  [--TK]

>>A beautiful tribute to RnTK's sister, Kiryat Nachliel in  Migdal haEimeq.

(For those who don't know the reference,  see
<http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedolim/ravbulman.html> on RNB,  RnTK's
father, and his other work.)<<




>>>>>
I love the way you refer to my father's  community, Kiryat Nachliel, in 
Migdal Ha'emek, as my "sister."  That holy  community was indeed a beloved child of 
his.
 
But there is something strange about the link you provided.  While  it is a 
nice tribute to my father, it does not mention his fourteen years in  Migdal 
Ha'emek at all!
 
If you will allow me, let me here post the url to my own article about my  
father zt'l which appeared in Jewish Action a few months after my father's  
petira.  
_http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5763/5763winter/WHOWILLC.PDF_ 
(http://www.ou.org/publications/ja/5763/5763winter/WHOWILLC.PDF)   
There you will get an idea of the kind of  community my father established, 
and also a brief summary of the ideals of Torah  im Derech Eretz that informed 
his life's work.


--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good values,  good family, good hair
Best hope against  Hillary



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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From: "Micha Berger" _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:micha@aishdas.org) 
: Wasn't there some  story (someone please tell me where) about the city
: of Luz, a kind of  Shangri-la where no one ever died, but when they got
: very old and tired of  living, they would just leave the city?  Was that
: allowed?  [--TK]

>>I would assert that Luz as described didn't exist.  <<
 
>>>>>
I agree that it didn't actually exist, but nevertheless, taking the story  on 
its own terms -- when people left the city, were they doing something wrong  
by leaving?
 
You also wrote:
>>In either case, if Luz did exist, it would probably refer  to
pre-Yaaqov Beis-El, and the people leaving it to die  weren't
necessarily Jewish.<<

However, bnai Noach are not allowed to commit suicide -- that  falls under 
"not killing" in the sheva mitzvos.


--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good values,  good family, good hair
Best hope against  Hillary




**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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From:  Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org

>>http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2008/01/eternal-belief.html   on explaining 
the verse---Behold, I come to you in the thick cloud, that the  people may 
hear when I speak with you, and believe you forever   -  in a time when not 
all do...<<




>>>>>
The pasuk refers to a prophecy that people will believe in Moshe  forever.   
It does not state or imply that all the people in the  world, or even all the 
Jews in the world, will always believe in Moshe and in  the Torah.
 
It is not only "today" but every year since the actual giving of the Torah  
that some Jews have rejected the Torah.  It isn't the existence of  some or 
even many unbelievers that is relevant here. What is  relevant is the continuing 
existence, without a break in history, of a  community of believers.
 
In fact there has always been and still remains a faithful Torah  community 
that continues, 3000 years later, to believe in Moshe Rabeinu.   To me this 
fulfillment of an ancient prophecy is an astonishing and  inspiring confirmation 
of the truth of the Torah.  

--Toby Katz
=============
Romney  -- good values, good family, good hair
Best hope against  Hillary



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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> >>http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2008/01/eternal-belief.html  on explaining
> the verse---Behold, I come to you in the thick cloud, that the people may
> hear when I speak with you, and believe you forever  -  in a time when not
> all do...<<
>

I'd say, it's we'll believe forever, **if we hearken**.

The Kuzari explains how our process of tradition guarantees that we
can trust tradition and the fact of Sinai. But obviously, the entire
Kuzari argument fails if one's parents never tell him about Sinai.

In other words, Hashem's appearance at Sinai before the nation
guarantees that the mesorah will ensure belief and observance, IF that
mesorah is transmitted properly. If it is not transmitted, or is
transmitted improperly (eg, ignore the child's questions), then
obviously, there is no assuredness. If it were sure, then why would we
have to send our children to day school?

Mikha'el Makovi

> Olive trees are regularly cut back to ensure better growth and yield.

> One way to tell the difference is that the trees are actually cut back to
> large stumps and not pulled out of the ground.

The entire tree is cut down? I thought they'd just be pruned of their
branches...? I'm not an agriculture guy though...

I am thinking of the halacha in Shabbat perek shvi'i daf 73b that if a
person prunes his tree AND wants the wood, he is liable for kotzer and
zomer; if he only wants to prune, but does not want the wood, he is
liable for zomer only. Whereas a person who prunes his ground
vegetables is liable for both kotzer and zomer no matter whether he
wants the vegetables (kotzer) or not.

There are a few explanations, but the two that appealed to me were:
1) With a tree, cutting the branches is m'kalkel, even if it does
result in kotzer, and so you are not liable for kotzer. Only if you
have intent to harvest the wood, and use it productively, is the whole
operation not m'kalkel, and thus you are doing kotzer. You do zomer in
either case of course, since this is your intent.
2) Iglei tal says that wood is not a pri of the eitz. Only if you have
intent to harvest the wood, does the wood become a pri, and thus you
are doing kotzer. Again of course, you do zomer in either case.

With vegetables however, they grow back so quickly that it isn't
m'kalel (if one follows number one above). Or, they are intrinsically
the pri (according to two).

--


guy from some tiny little island in Greece, so whenever we have a
question about sewing or harvesting or doing anything else, we just
ask him. Tirmonsu (or some funky-sounding thing like that - lupine
beans) just came up in Shabbat, and he described to us exactly what
they are and how you have to boil them many times, etc. I was looking
at something in Chullin once, and he walked into the room, and I asked
him if he's ever butchered an animal, and he said he's done a chicken
and seen it done to sheep and lambs. He also told us a story of how he
went to visit his family during Sukkot, but he forgot his lulav in
Israel, so he and his mother drove around the countryside till they
found a naturally growing kosher one. Every mesechet Shabbat group
needs a guy like him.

Mikha'el Makovi

From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>

<<In either case, if Luz did exist, it would probably refer to
pre-Yaaqov Beis-El, and the people leaving it to die weren't
necessarily Jewish.>>

Shlomo Hamelech sent two of his servants there to prevent their
death.  That doesn't address their Judaism, but certainly places
it after Yaakov "historically".

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

Actually, qim li only works if you can bring a shitah that was not yet
retired through halachic process. Someone need not give up property by
being forced to pasqen one way over the other; but both ways have to
be valid pesaq!
So, if "all" posqim of our generation agree, the opinions of earlier
acharonim would not come into play.
In terms of a Torah gov't... I would think that the governmental pesaq
would be forced to be accepted. Qim li also doesn't overrule hefqeir
beis din hefqeir, which our 7 tuvei ha'ir based gov't could invoke.

To the best of my knowledge kim li applies to any 2 recognized poskim after
the SA. Only the SA overrides previous opinions not the unanimous opinions
of the present generation

hefker bet din hefker applies only to individual situations. 7 tuvei
ha'ir cannot
issue new rules that override the gemara. In particular they cannot allow
davar shelo ba leolam or allow computers to make kinyanim without human
intervention. As poskim state if they could then just throw CM away.

In fact the Ran seems to allow the king to make laws that override halacha.
Most later poskim do not accept this Ran exactly on the grounds that it makes
CM unnecessary

-- 
Eli Turkel

In fact the Ran seems to allow the king to make laws that override halacha.Most later poskim do not accept this Ran exactly on the grounds that it makesCM unnecessary

-- Eli Turkel_______________________________________________yet the dvar avraham claims that hefker bet din flows from the power of the melech.  One possible suggestion might be that there are 2 separate rules, the standard 7 tuvei (less powerful and dependent on local custom) and the malchut (broader and according to R Kook they go back to the am if there is no melech)

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On Jan 29, 2008 5:48 AM, Richard Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net> wrote:

> The Sages relate that the angels complained to Hashem when He chose to
> share His precious Torah
> with His people. They argued, "Your glory (Your Torah) should remain among
> the Heavenly beings. They are
> holy and Your Torah is holy, they are pure and Your Torah is pure and they
> are everlasting and Your Torah
> is also." One of the answers to that is three words from the Torah: "Lo
> bashamayim hee".
>
> However, Midrash Shochar Tov 8 says that  Hashem responded that the Torah
> could not remain amongst
> them because they are perfect spiritual beings with no mortality, impurity
> or illness. Hashem's true glory would
> ultimately come from man plagued by impurity and mortality.
>
> ri
>

Of course the Torah was meant for fallible humans to help US.
the point of the Midrash is this:  Hazal wanted us to know that once th
Torah left the heavens it would no longer remain the pristine Perfect
Handiwork of HKBH, but would henceforth be managed and interpreted by
error-prone humans. Nevertheless - despite the loss of innocence for the
Torah - this step was necessary. The time had come for the innocent Torah to
mix it up with the mortals and to help us even if if would not remain in its
original state.

It's a warning against us humanstaking on perfectionistic or highly
fundamentalistic notion of Torah - and rather allowing  it to do its thing
even though it would never be quite the same as it was

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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