Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 34

Thu, 24 Jan 2008

• 1. Diberah Torah (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Pesel Micah (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: FW: chemotherapy (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] Kol B'Ishah and Halachic methodology (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Shabbos Elevator Pitch (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Shabbos Elevator Pitch (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Roast lamb (Richard Wolpoe)
• 8. FW: Re: [Areivim] Kol B'Ishah and Halachic methodology (SBA)
• 9. THREE Interesting Facts (Richard Wolberg)
• 10. Re: Hopeful Vision (Michael Makovi)
• 11. eilu v'eilu (M Cohen)
• 12. Tishri or Tishrei? (RallisW@aol.com)

R' Yishma'el's dictum "diberah Torah belashon benei adam" is very specific
in scope.

There were two schools of derashah, R' Aqiva's and R' Yishma'el's. R'
Aqiva darshened lexically, focusing on buzzwords. R' Aqiva famously
darshened "es" lerabos, "akh" and "raq" as mi'utim. "Ta'aseir ta'aseir"
is repetitive, and thus gives room for derashah.

R' Yishma'el says that derashah is semantic. Whereas R' Aqiva's
notions of ribui umi'ut involve words, his rules of kelal uperat are
about meanings. If "es" is the normal prefix for an object, an "tithe
a tenth" the normal turn of phrase for biblical Hebrew, they aren't
usable for derashah. Kelal uperat is about the meaning of a pasuq,
such as "min habeheimah, min habaqar umin hatzon" (Vayiqra 1:2) --
the general followed by two examples.

See <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2005/09/midrashei-halakhah.shtml>
for much more of my thoughts on the topic, complete with which school
produced which sifrei medrash.

Getting back to the point... "Diberah Torah belashon benei adam" doesn't
have to do with use of allegorization, idioms, how naaratives are told
in the Chumash, or even derashah in the aggadic sense.

It's simply about the mechanics of middos of derashah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
micha@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

On Mon, Jan 21, 2008 at 07:25:16AM -0800, Mordechai Goldstein wrote:
: Can someone tell me, the Pesel Micah, that went over by Krias Yam Suf,
: is this the same Pesel Micah in Shoftim?  In Shoftim it seems like a 
: new thing.

According to Medrash Rabba, this Mikhah was saved by Moshe Rabbeinu from
being used as a brick in Pitom or Raamseis, when the Mitzriyim started
using infants to replace bricks when the Jews didn't make quota.

He then stole the parchment containing the words "alei shur" which Moshe
put into the river to make Yoseif's aron rise to the service. (According
to another MR, this river was NOT the Ye'or. The Mitzriyim hid the aron
in another river, a tributary to the main Nile, to try to keep us from
leaving -- since we would never break our promise to Yoseif. Mazal,
a/k/a Serach bas Asher, told Moshe where he could find the aron.)

In the days of the Eigel, he took out the klaf and threw it into the
fire with the gold, which is how the eigel was na'asah on its own.

He was the same Mikhah as Pesel Mikhah in Shofetim.

So, it's not a "new thing", but rather a new instance of an old thing.
But I never heard of an actual pesel crossing the Yam Suf.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
micha@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 05:27:15PM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: RMB's post seems to presume, or at least suspect, that Eis Laasos
: and Horaas Shaah are two different things. But my suspicion is that
: Eis Laasos is the source pasuk which justifies the concept of Horaas
: Shaah. For if the permission to make a Horaas Shaah does not come from
: Eis Laasos, then where *does* it come from?

My post is trying to prove it.

: Also: Horaas Shaah, as defined in the Rambam which RMB cited, refers
: only to *temporary* gezeros. Surely the absence of Shofar on Shabbos is
: a permanent measure, so we can still search for other examples...

He writes "lefi hasha'ah" -- the trigger is of the moment. It doesn't
say that it much be "temporary" afterward. "La'aqor davar minhatorah"
is exactly the lashon used for shofer on Shabbos RH.

OTOH, eis laasos is used to decribe Eliyahu behar haKarmel, which has
nothing to do with sheiv ve'al ta'aseh (regardless of whether temporary)
and thus unlike the usual "koach beyad beis din la'aqor".

The Rambam's description of horaas sha'ah doesn't fit the textbook case
of eis la'asos, so I figured they much be different things.

It also relies on the word *hora'ah* and the power of BD, and therefore
would apply to Eliyahu doing something based on nevu'ah ouside any role
he may have had in BD.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
micha@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Sat, Jan 19, 2008 at 06:39:11PM +0200, Michael Makovi wrote:
: In Equality Lost, Rabbi Henkin comes to this EXACT conclusion. He
: quotes the Gemara that one of the rabbis would carry a bride on his
: shoulder at a wedding and respond he was of such a level that it
: didn't affect him. Then, the Maharsha (I think; it was Maran haRav
: someone) says that this works not only for an individual, but also a
: society: when the entire community or society has greater interaction
: between the sexes, they become inured and distance is no longer
: necessary....

I think that understanding this requires first understanding RYH's
discussion of the difference between das Moshe (absolute standards of
tzeni'us, which are mandatory regardless of what people are used to)
and das Yehudis (social norms of tzeni'us).

Try searching the archive for "das Yehudis" for previous discussions of
this point.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
micha@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sat, Jan 19, 2008 at 09:27:23PM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: R' Gil recently posted on Hirhurim:
:  "R. Yaakov horowitz's latest column quotes a woman who describes the
: beauty of Shabbos in that it is 1) a time to be with family...

: R. Sa'adia Ga'on (Emunos Ve-Dei'os 3:2) lists the following logical
: reasons for Shabbos and holidays, which he believes is generally about
: obedience to God but has secondary reasons as well
: 1.	to rest from work 
: 2.	to spend time acquiring wisdom 
: 3.	for extended prayer 
: 4.	to meet with others to study religion
: I find it noteworthy that he did not include in his list anything about
: family gatherings and spending time together...

Isn't family the ultimate embodiment of RSG's no.s 1 and 4?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Sat, Jan 19, 2008 at 09:27:23PM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: R' Gil recently posted on Hirhurim:
:  "R. Yaakov horowitz's latest column quotes a woman who describes the
: beauty of Shabbos in that it is 1) a time to be with family...

: R. Sa'adia Ga'on (Emunos Ve-Dei'os 3:2) lists the following logical
: reasons for Shabbos and holidays, which he believes is generally about
: obedience to God but has secondary reasons as well
: 1.	to rest from work 
: 2.	to spend time acquiring wisdom 
: 3.	for extended prayer 
: 4.	to meet with others to study religion
: I find it noteworthy that he did not include in his list anything about
: family gatherings and spending time together...

Isn't family the ultimate embodiment of RSG's no.s 1 and 4?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Jan 23, 2008 5:39 AM, Elazar M. Teitz <remt@juno.com> wrote:

>
>     As for the prohibition extending to tz'li keidar, even though it isn't
> kasher for korban pesach: it's no different than beef or fowl, which are
> likewise not kasher for the korban, and yet are included in the minhag not
> to eat roasted on leil haseder.
>
> EMT


I'm not so sure.  Z,li Keidar is not construed as Zli
The minhag not have zli has Mishnaic rotos. and it may apply to other forms
of meat.
Zli keidar by defintion will have Tzir/mohal of the meat -ergo have liquid
and not be true zli.

If the Gmara or at least the Rishonim had this cheshash, I would be more
amenable. I find it troubling that it sems only the acharonim came up with
this "chiddush" which to me does not follow based upon the definition of
Zli.

Plus, a lot of people make chozeh out of this type of chumra. I think it is
counterproductive.  There are really valid harchakos out theres. I don't se
HOW putting a piece of beef/fowl into a pot could EVER be confused with zli
which is on a spit or suspended somehow over an open fire.

Imagine a humra as follows:  Don't walk in the house with your corned  beef
sandwich because someone is eating milk and cereal in the house.   We have
harchakos already in the Mishna about ein ma'alin.  Arent' hazal's harachos
enough - especially when the odds are so remote?  It might not technicaly be
bal toseif but it is imho a similar mindset

Now if you were to roast a beef on a spit with lots of fluids I could fathom
a gzeira that MAYBE you will forget to add enough liquid and meshicha with
oil is after all still a good zli.  OK so make a gzeira THERE!  At least it
has seichel!

WADR I think this point re: zli keidar is pointless.  One can ALWAYS respond
that one can never be TOO careful. That is not enough it has to have  some
kind of reality check.

Life th Gra I was kind of cyncial about gebrutz. Then I read a stroy in
which a rebbgbetzin was baking with matza meal and women spread rumors taht
the woman was baking witth regular flour on pesach. At least  we have a
ma'aseh shehaya to justify a g'zeira, lest onlookers confuse matzo meal with
flour. This is perfectly reasonable even for a misnaged!

But tis to me adds no value except as  an excuse for leitzanim to make fun
of minhaggim...[which they have to me  personally]

If there IS a really good logic to this, by all means let's see it!

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Forwarded to Avodah as per moderators:

From: Meir Shinnar <chidekel@gmail.com>
... accusing someone  of C hashkafa, ... is a shorthand for an accusation of
kfira.   
...there should be some attempt ... to be dan lchaf zchut - even if one
rejects the methodology and the conclusions.  It would seem to me that the
casual imputation of kfira ...to a rav is a far more major violation (and of
issure d'oraita) than anything in the article ..
>.

I haven't been following this thread be'iyun, and have no view about that
rabbi.

But if there is kefireh involved - wouldn't this come under the category of
the laws of a meises - for whom one is forbidden (indeed issure d'oraita) to
be 'dan lchaf zchut'?

SBA

1)  Purim Saragossa (1421)

A noxious plot was brewing against the Jewish community of Saragossa,  
but they were completely unaware of the looming danger. They were  
spared, however, thanks to a handful of synagogues beadles who acted  
on a dream they all had. The resulting salvation on the 17th of Shevat  
was celebrated by Saragossan Jews, and dubbed "Purim Saragossa."

A Hebrew Megillah (scroll) was penned, describing the details of the  
miraculous story. To this day, this scroll is read in certain  
communities on Purim Saragossa.

Link: Purim Saragossa [ http://www.chabad.org/1481 ]


2) Hope you had your Buckwheat last Shabbos:
There is a custom of eating black buckwheat (kasha) on Shabbos Shira.  
(Buckwheat is not a cereal like wheat or barley. It belongs to the  
same family as rhubarb and is known to botanists as Fagopyrum  
esculentum).


3)  THE NUMBER THREE IN JUDAISM (as opposed to Xianity)

The Torah stresses that the Jewish people?s encampment ?with one  
heart? took place during ?the third month after the Exodus.? Evidently  
the people?s unity resulted not only from their location ?opposite the  
mount,? but also from the fact that this took place during the third  
month.

What is so special about three, and how does it foster unity; if  
anything, unity seems more directly related to the number one.

The difference between the numbers one, two and three are as follows:  
?One? stresses that from the very outset there exists but one thing;  
?two? is indicative of divisiveness ? the antitheses of unity.  
?Three,? however, sees a uniting of disparate entities ? making ?one?  
out of ?two.?

This aspect of ?three? is similar to the statement of our Sages that  
?When two Biblical passages contradict each other, the meaning can be  
determined by a third Biblical text, which reconciles them.?

We see here the remarkable quality of the ?third.? Without the third  
verse the two verses indeed contradict each other. Then the third  
reconciles the seemingly irreconcilable. Moreover, it does so not by  
?taking sides,? i.e., agreeing with one verse and disagreeing with the  
other, but by showing that the first two verses are actually in  
consonance.

Since Torah is inextricably bound up with the concept of ?three,? as  
our Sages state: ?Blessed is G-d who gave the three-part Torah to the  
three-part Nation... in the third month,? it is understandable that  
Torah as a whole has characteristics similar to those of the number  
three.

This results in the fact that even when Torah law is seemingly arrived  
at not through a reconciling view, but by agreeing with one opinion  
and disagreeing with another, those initially opposed agree not only  
with the adjudication but also with the logic that resulted in the  
verdict ? all are peacefully united ?with one heart.?

(Based on Likkutei Sichos Vol. XXI, pp. 108-112.)
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> My personal feelings have been very optimistic also for another reason. It
> is our traditional belief that God knows everything that will ever occur.
> Hence, if the end of man were to be total evil, then it seems unlikely that
> God would have created a world doomed to failure.
> ri

This is the justification I have seen for our knowing that the world
will in fact be redeemed. If Hashem created man and the world, then it
simply cannot be that His purpose in Creation will not be achieved.
His starting the task is itself a guarantee that He will finish it (or
that it will be finished). Similarly  that He gave Am Yisrael Torah
and the gentiles "Torah-lite", is His vote of confidence in our
ability to keep these.

Mikha'el Makovi

I know that Avodah/Areivim already has had many eilu v'eilu discussions.

 

Yesterday someone told me a pshat that I had never heard before, that he
heard directly from r Chaim kanievsksy shlita

r Chaim told him that eilu v'eilu only applies to the daas of chazal, but
eilu v'eilu does not apply to anyone after chasimas hashas.

ie rishonim etc

 

Any comments/sources for this opinion?

 

Mordechai Cohen 

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I have seen the seventh month written both ways. Which way is correct? 
 
 
It seems that Tishri is more correct?
 
In the Selichos of Tzom Gedalyoh, the second selicho "Ovlo nafshi v'choshach 
to-ori..." The phrase in which the word occurs is "... doachu k'hayom 
bishlosho b'Tishri:"

 
 



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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