Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 8

Sun, 06 Jan 2008

• 1. Re: BO "My Sin Is Not A Perfume" (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Kashrut of Cloning (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Ribbis from non-Jews (was: LH about non-Jews) (Chana Luntz)
• 4. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 5. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 6. Re: Fasting on Yom Kippur (T613K@aol.com)
• 7. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 8. Re: Kashrut of Cloning (T613K@aol.com)
• 9. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (T613K@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Accent on the Right Syllable in Krias Shema (Michael ORR)
• 12. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)

Richard Wolberg wrote:
> [the difference between "chato-SI" (my sin) and "cho-TO-si"
> (I have sinned)]

I'm sorry, what has this got to do with perfume?



> A devout clergyman was asked by one of his parishioners to explain the 
> doctrine of election. His reply was: "You know what an election is when 
> we elect the president or the governor. In the Kingdom of God there is 
> always an election going on. Only three votes are cast. The Lord always 
> votes for you. The devil always votes against you. And YOU have the 
> deciding vote.

A good "vort".  This one is cast in terms of Xian theology, but a
somewhat similar one can be found in Tanya chapter 13, and is hinted
at in Kiddushin 30b.  But unfortunately for the clergyman in the story
this is the exact *opposite* of the Calvinist doctrine of Election,
which is what he's supposed to be explaining.  This clergyman may be
devout but he is not knowledgeable, and indeed it seems to me that
this borders on what both Xians and Jews would call heresy (seeing
God and the "Devil" as having equal votes, ch"v).

Discussions of Xian doctrine are of course off-topic for Avodah, but
in this case there is something similar in Torah.  Not about the
"election" of individuals, which is a Calvinist doctrine that I don't
think has any support in Jewish machashava, but in the election of
Yaacov over Esav.

The pasuk says "Esav is a brother to Yaacov [...] but I loved Yaacov
and hated Esav" (Malachi 1:2-3).  This shows that Hashem's choice of
Yaacov over Esav happened *before* there were any differences between
them, at a time when they were absolutely identical and there was no
basis at all for choosing one over the other.  The differences that
emerged between them were a result of this Election, not its cause.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Michael Makovi wrote:
>> http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/ng.asp?id=13575-fda-declares-cloning
>> 2) If kosher, are they still considered meat?
> 
>>> Again, why not?  What svara would suggest otherwise?
> 
> We know that a mother who is schechted and then gives live birth, the
> baby is "dead". And if that calf grows up and has children, they're
> all "dead" too, and onwards, and there's no chiyuv to schecht.
> 
> I haven't read the literature on this issue, but I could see how one
> could hold that d'oraita, a cloned animal would be considered not a
> real creature, having not come from a womb, and thus not liable for
> schechting.

1. Why would a cloned animal davka not come from a womb?  Right now
uterine replicators are not even close to a real technology; If they
ever do become available, they'll still have nothing to do with
cloning, and would naturally be used far more often for non-clones
than for clones.  

2. A ben pekua is not permitted because it didn't come from a womb;
on the contrary, it did.  It's permitted because it has already been
shechted.  It was part of an organism that was shechted properly, so
its shechita has already happened.  What possible connection could
this have to an animal that has *not* been shechted, and on the
contrary has never even been part of an organism that was *later*
shechted?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

RMT writes:

> RMikha'el Makovi writes: 
> 
> > Actually, it is forbidden by the Torah to take interest from a 
> > gentile. The Torah permits interest to a nochri, which, as 
> the Hertz 
> > Chumash teaches, is a gentile passing through the land, not an 
> > inhabitant.
> 
>      WADR to the Hertz chumash, it is explicit in the g'mara 
> (Bava M'tzia 72a) that one is permitted to take interest even 
> from a ger toshav, who is hardly a "gentile passing through 
> the land."  Indeed, according to most rishonim, it is a 
> mitzva to charge the goy (though not the ger toshav), but 
> Chazal restricted it to only what is necessary for 
> sustenance, so as to prevent the Jew from coming into too 
> close contact with his debtor and learning from his actions 
> "b'rov y'shivaso imo" -- hardly the description of a 
> transient association. (See, e.g., Rambam Malveh v'Loveh 5:1-2.) 

Well, to be fair to the Hertz Chumash, a nochri is actually forbidden to
live in the land unless he embraces the sheva mitzvos bnei noach (or
according to some opinions of Rashi, at least renounces avodah zara).
It is just that absent Jewish sovereign powers we aren't in any position
to enforce that.  To my mind this rabbinic enactment banning interest is
dealing with the reality, not the ideal, in which there would be
virtually no contact and at most a transient association.

Getting back to the original discussion, namely loshen hora vis a vis a
ger toshav, who is permitted to live in our midst ie "b'kirbecha", the
Rambam certainly understands our obligation of l'hachayosan as including
treating them b'derech eretz v'gimlus chasadim (see hilchos Melachim
10:12).  Given that lashon hora is likened to shvichas damim (see
Arachin 15b), and further given the counterpoint of l'chayosan to
shvichas damim would that not seem to make lashon hara perhaps the most
straightforward application of the Rambam's characterisation (although I
do note that Rashi at least holds that the mitzvah of hocheach nocheach
does not apply to a ger toshav - see Sanhedrin 75a d'h "v'im ita", which
mitzvah is I think one of those counted by the Chofetz Chaim as
constituting one of the many issurim of loshen hora).

Vis a vis a genuine nochri, ie an idol worshipper, one does have to
wonder how the opportunity for loshen hora is going to arise.  Loshen
hora is something only really possible if one has a certain level of
relationship with the subject.  It is pretty much impossible for me to
speak loshen hora about any particular Eskimo, as I don't know any, not
even an Eskimo's name. So I can't work out how I would do it, even if I
wanted to.  The greater the relationship between people, the easier it
is and the more instinctive it is, perhaps, to talk lashon hora about
that person. It is not really surprising that the classic case of loshen
hora in the Torah is between brother and sister.   I suspect that if
somebody has the level of relationship with a genuine akum that leads
them to be in the position to be talking loshon hora, there is already
arguably a problem.

> EMT 

Regards

Chana

I see no evidence from these sources for your position.

Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
>  From the following sources - is seems that any possible mitzva to 
> accept converts - is balanced out by a strong awareness that most are 
> deleterious for the Jewish people. Thus Rashi simply states if they are 
> dissuaded from converting it is of no concern to us. Or to put it 
> another way it seems that even if there is a kiyum of a mitzva to accept 
> geirim but there is no chiyuv that non-Jews be converted.
>
> *Yevamos[1] <#_ftn1>(47b): *The Master said: If a non?Jew wants to 
> convert he is told:?What is the reason that you have decided to 
> convert?? He is informed of some of the minor and some of the major 
> mitzvos. What is the reason for this? In order that if he wishes to 
> withdraw let him withdraw. This is because of the words of R? Chelbo: 
> ?Converts are as difficult for Israel as a sore.? This is refected in 
> the language of Isaiah (14:1): ?and foreigners shall be joined with 
> them, and they shall cleave [same root as sore] to the house of Yaakov..?* *
>
>   
All that this Gemara indicates is that we must make a potential convert 
aware of the complexity of Judaism, for those who convert without such 
awareness are a source of difficulty.
>  *Rashi[2] <#_ftn2>(Yevamos 47b): If he withdraws * - and doesn?t become 
> a convert *Let him withdraw ? *and it is of no concern of ours.
>
>   
That is because he clearly was not interested in the full scope of Judaism.
> *Yevamos[3] <#_ftn3>(109b)*: R? Yitzchok said what is the meaning of 
> Mishlei (11:15): He that is a surety for a stranger will suffer for it? 
> That means evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts... That 
> those who accept converts bring evil upon themselves is learned from R? 
> Chelbo who said: Converts are as difficult for Israel as a sore on the skin.
>
> *Rashi[4] <#_ftn4>(Yevamos 109b): Converts are as difficult for Israel ? 
> *because they are not knowledgeable in the details of the mitzvos and 
> Israel learns from their incorrect conduct*. As a sore ? *This is the 
> language of the verse (Yeshaya 14:1):?? and foreigners shall be joined 
> with them, and they shall cleave [same root as sore] to the house of 
> Yakov..* *
>
>   
Once more, we are speaking about converts who undertake Judaism without 
recognizing its full scope and breadth.
> *Rambam[5] <#_ftn5>(Hilchos Issurei Biah 13:18): *Because of this* 
> *[that even if they relapse they are still Jews] our Sages have said 
> that converts are as difficult for Israel as a skin disease because the 
> majority of them relapse and they lead Israel astray. It is difficult to 
> avoid their influence after they have converted. Look what happened in 
> the Wilderness concerning the Golden Calf as well Kivros HaTaavah. In 
> addition concerning the majority of the trials the Mixed Multitude were 
> involved at the start.
>
>   
Ditto.

It would be patently absurd for the Torah to command us so many times to 
love geirim if we were not meant to facilitate the process. Chazal's 
precautions require us to notify a potential Ger of the full extent of 
his undertaking.

KT,
YGB

Why should they be deprived of full-fledged geirus? If they "realize 
that Yahadus is Emes," why stop as Gerei Toshav. I always understood GT 
as meant basically for masses who didn't want to give up cheeseburgers. 
One who is willing to forgo them should surely be accepte, no?

When were Chazal not mekkabel gerim?

KT,
YGB

Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> RYGB:
> If we believe that Yahadus is emes and that yakiru v'yeid'u kol yoshvei
> teivel that emes, how can we not have a chiyuv to be mekaabel geirim!?
>
>
> Because there is a level before that - Geir Toshav. Even if there wasn't -
> Yakiru V'yeid'u only means that they will realize that Yahadus is Emes - it
> doesn't imply that they will become Yidden, just that they renounce Avodah
> Zarah. During Kriyas Yam Suf, for example, the nations renounced AZ, saying
> Mi Kamocha... (Mechilta on that Pasuk.) That seems to me to be a full Yakiru
> V'yeid'u. In any case, there were times in Jewish history when Chazal were
> not M'kabel Geirim, because their motives were questioned.
>
> KT,
> MYG
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>   

 
 
TK typing in her sleep as usual wrote this:

>>.... I didn't mean to imply that  
there is a  blanket heter for pregnant women to fast on Yom Kippur ...<<
 
A gentle kibbitzer wrote to me off-list to ask,  >>Do you  mean that in 
general, pregnant women are prohibited from fasting on YK?  :)   <<
 
Sigh.
 
Please add the absolutely essential word NOT in your text, thus:
 
There is no blanket heter for pregnant women NOT to fast on Yom  Kippur.
 
Thank you.
 




--Toby  Katz
=============



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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RYGB:
> Why should they be deprived of full-fledged geirus? If they "realize
> that Yahadus is Emes," why stop as Gerei Toshav. I always understood GT
> as meant basically for masses who didn't want to give up cheeseburgers.
> One who is willing to forgo them should surely be accepte, no?
> 
> When were Chazal not mekkabel gerim?

Bimei Dovid V'Shlomo - Rambam, Issurei Biah 13:15.

KT,
MYG

 
 
From: "Michael Makovi" _mikewinddale@gmail.com_ 
(mailto:mikewinddale@gmail.com) 

>>I haven't read the literature on this issue, but I could see  how one
could hold that d'oraita, a cloned animal would be considered not  a
real creature, having not come from a womb, and thus not liable  for
schechting.<<

>>>>>
As several others have pointed out, "cloning" does NOT mean that the  animal 
is grown in a test tube.  So far it is not possible to grow an  animal without 
using a womb. "Cloning" means that the genetic material to form  the new 
animal is taken from the nucleus of an existing animal and results in a  new 
animal that is a genetic copy -- an identical twin -- to the animal from  which its 
DNA was taken.

 


IVF which is sometimes loosely called "test tube babies" does not mean that  
these babies live in a test tube for nine months.  It means an egg is  
fertilized in a test tube -- actually a petri dish -- and then implanted in the  
mother at about the sixteen-cell stage.  Size of the period at the end of  this 
sentence.  Also these babies are not clones, although some scientists  are 
apparently working on cloning humans (which still does not mean they would  grow 
outside a womb, but that the daughter would be an identical twin to her  mother).
 
When Mother Nature splits a fertilized egg and makes two identical people  
aka twins, Mother Nature herself is cloning people.  But both of them have  to 
grow in a womb to survive.




--Toby  Katz
=============




**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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There is no chiyuv to accept gerim because there is no obligation for a goy  
to become a ger.  He can get olam haba by keeping the Sheva  Mitzvos.



--Toby  Katz
=============



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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On Sun, Jan 06, 2008 at 08:18:51PM -0500, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: There is no chiyuv to accept gerim because there is no obligation for a goy  
: to become a ger.  He can get olam haba by keeping the Sheva  Mitzvos.

And yet: Ratzah HQBH leZAKOS es Yisrael, lefikhakh hirba lahem Tora
umitzvos.

And on these grounds, we can have a geir qatan - ZACHIN le'adam shelo
befanav. Assuming we have reason the child would be raised to be a
shomer/es Torah umitzvos, so that becoming a bar/t chiyuvah is a zekhus.

Having mitzvos, for someone committed to mitzvos, is a plus -- and thus
bringing people to that state is doing them a favor.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

MICHAEL ORR WROTE:

>   OC 61 deals with the requirement 

for proper pronunciation of krias shema,

 but unless I am missing something there

 appears to be an absence of any discussion

 of the need to put the accent on the proper

 syllable (as indicated by the masoretic text).

 

Can anyone provide an authoritative source

 for the obligation to put the accent on the

 proper syllable? 

 

ZEV SERO WROTE:

 

61:24 requires saying KSh with the ta'amim

 as they are written in the Torah.  

The ta'amim are the accents.

 

MO REPLY:  The Rema, however, appears to interpret ?ta?amim? 

as referring here primarily to the niggun, and says that the

 Ashkenazi custom is not to say the KSh with ta?amim 

(except for those who are particular ? hamedakdekim machmirim).  

So I come back to the question whether anyone has an explicit 

source for the obligation to say KSh with the accents on the 

proper syllables according to the masoretic text, especially 

for those words where wrong accents would change the meaning.?

 
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You call that Chazal? I call that Tanach!

Be that as it may, that was because they were assumed not to be megayer 
l'shma. Vohs hoht dohs tzu tohn miht uhnz?

KT,
YGB

Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> RYGB:
>   
>> Why should they be deprived of full-fledged geirus? If they "realize
>> that Yahadus is Emes," why stop as Gerei Toshav. I always understood GT
>> as meant basically for masses who didn't want to give up cheeseburgers.
>> One who is willing to forgo them should surely be accepte, no?
>>
>> When were Chazal not mekkabel gerim?
>>     
>
> Bimei Dovid V'Shlomo - Rambam, Issurei Biah 13:15.
>
> KT,
> MYG
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>   
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