Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 69

Wed, 21 Nov 2007

• 1. Re: Fwd: Vayeitze "Watch Whom You Marry" (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Yekum Purkan (David E Cohen)
• 3. Re: What is Mindfulness and does Judaism have it (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 4. shemitta flowers (Eli Turkel)
• 5. semi-circular menorah (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: proofs of G-d (Zev Sero)
• 7. proofs of G-d (Eli Turkel)
• 8. Baal Haturim (Vayishlach 32:17) (Sholom Simon)
• 9. Women's zimun (Sholom Simon)
• 10. Re: Mindfulness and Being Present in the Moment (yonah sears)
• 11. Re: proofs of G-d (T613K@aol.com)
• 12. Re: proofs of G-d (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 13. Re: Proofs of God (kennethgmiller@juno.com)

 



		 
		2) It has always bothered me how Rashi could say that
Ya'akov kept Taryag Mitzvot when we know explicitly that he didn't by
marrying Rachel. 
		Kol Tuv,
		~Liron Kopinsky
		
		

	While I was in Yeshivas Ner Israel it was explained to me that
the Avos did not LITERALLY keep Taryag, but they DID keep the principles
BEHIND the Taryag. 
	

	This is congruent with the notion that the mitzvos as WE know
them are not THE intrinsic Torah and  could be suspended in Yemos
Hamashiach. 
	
	But behind the revelaed "nigleh"  Torah there IS an intrinsic
"nistar" Torah that IS immutable
	
	-- 
	Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
	RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com  <mailto:RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com> 
	 ----------------------------------------------------
	FWIW I have an extensive source sheet from a tikkun leil shavuot
shiur on this topic if anyone wants it.
	KT
	Joel Rich 

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R' Elliott Shevin wrote:
> For those cases where very few answer "amen" when the chazan says,
> "venomar amen," I'd nominate Yakum Purkan.

While we're on the topic, it's always puzzled me that chazzanim generally
say the second "Yekum Purkan" quietly, given that it is addressed directly
to the tzibbur.

--D.C.

> From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] What is Mindfulness and does Judaism have it
(sorry, the last one went out mid-preparation)

> I was quite confused about this whole thread, and asked the threadstarter,
> R' Yonatan Kaganoff about it.
>
> For the benefit of others who might be similarly confused, it could be
> helpful to read the article in Wikipedia titled "Mindfulness". It can be
> found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness  It is about seven pages
> long on my screen, and the first paragraph reads:
>
>> Mindfulness (Pali: Sati; Sanskrit: sm'ti) is a technique in
>> which a person becomes intentionally aware of their thoughts
>> and actions in the present moment, non-judgmentally. It plays
>> a central role in Buddhism, with Right Mindfulness (Pali:
>> samm?-sati; Sanskrit: samyak-sm'ti) being the seventh element
>> of the Noble Eightfold Path, the sadhana of which is held in
>> the tradition to engender insight and wisdom. Mindfulness may
>> be paralogous in Christianity through the Eastern Orthodox
>> hesychastic concept of nepsis.
>
> Akiva Miller

I looked it up and found the following very interesting:

"In general, the Hesychast restricts his external activities for the sake of 
his Hesychastic practice."
=================
Sound like trying to achieve "Shev VeAl Ta'ase".

http://userpages.aug.com/~mdkersey/philokalia.html#Nepsis

When looking it up, it would appear to be pointed inward, towards oneself. 
Again a type of Shev VeAl Ta'aseh.

Interestingly enough the 6 mitzvot Shimiyot listed by Rambam, could be 
considered to be under this heading of mindfulness, but Rambam considers 
them mitzvot as in "active", and their goal is active - towards Hashem etc.

It looks like mindfulness for the Budhist is a goal in and of itself, while 
similar activity in Judaism is just a tool towards adding Kavana when doing 
a mitzva or performing other mitzvot.

Shoshana L. Boublil

>
> Is it possible that other people have other data, suggesting that Rav
> Belsky's "30%" figure is unduly high and alarmist? For example, I have
> learned elsewhere that Hilchos Shemittah only applies to *fragrant* flowers.
> Could it be that Rav Belsky's "30%" includes non-fragrant flowers, and that
> the actual percentage of fragrant Israeli flowers is negligible?
>
> Akiva Miller
>
>
I confess ignorance to Sheitta laws, but isn't shemitta a function of peiros
not flowers?
IIRC last shemitta we had to dispose of Esroggim properly but not hadassim -
which DO have a fragrance. And re: Lulav v'arava we also did nothing special
implying no kedushas shevi'is.>>

In fact I believe that ROY does allow the normal use of flowers during shemitta
though others include fragrant flowers within the halachot of shemitta


-- 
Eli Turkel

Sperber has a detailed discussion of the shape of the Menorah. BTW
there are problems
with the picture on Titus' arch because it shows a hexagon base which
appears nowhere else.
he has some suggestions as to the basis of this.
As noted most ancient pictures in ancient synagogues, old coins  and
the old city show curved arms

-- 
Eli Turkel

Marty Bluke wrote:

> Today, this idea (that the Chinuch explicitly rejects) of hashgacha
> pratis on everything has taken hold. There is no question that it is a
> very calming thought. You don't have to worry about chance occurrences
> affecting you, everything is directly from Hashem. However, this was
> not the view of the overwhelming majority of the Rishonim.

I have heard from a reliable source, in the name of Dayan Abramsky,
that "today, anyone who does not believe in the Baal Shem Tov's shita
in hashgacha pratis [i.e. the one that the Chinuch rejected] is an
apikores".

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

<<You have brought no evidence that the sources I have cited are limited
to an individual blaming himself for his own suffering. Furthermore if
you want to claim that only a prophet can say such a thing than you need
to justify why chazal make such statements all over Shas e.g.,  why was
the Temple destroyed. In addition it seems to be a common practice
throught the ages - as you yourself note with disapproval.>>

First with regard to RYBS I strongly suggest reading "Out of the Whirlwind".
He in fact strongly condemns those who attribute the Holocaust to sins
of the people
as trivializing the actions of the Nazis. More basically finite man
has no hope of
understanding an infinite G-d and his ways. Hence, man can only use tragedy to
improve his future but can never understand it.

Chazal has ruach hakodesh which modern day gedolim do not have. However, even in
Shas various reasons are given for the destruction of the second
Temple. It is interesting
that in the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza the gemara never identifies
the "guilty"
parties. In a discussion in our shul various people pointed to
virtuallly everyone in the
story including the chachamim to did not protest the shame of bar
kamtza and also those
that did not oppose Zercharya and so did not bring the king's korban.

We know that many great tzaddikim died at an early age eg the Ari-zal.
No one would claim
that is because of their sins. Even the rishonim were bothered by the
death of the great
rabbis in the first crusade (see the description in the Kinnot).
hence, it was decided that
they died for the sins of others. Given that philosophy one can not
tell who dies for his
own sins and who dies for the sins of others and for many other reasons.

There is a story of a favorite talmid of the Ramban who died early.
Before his death the Ramban
requested that he appear in a dream and explain why he died early. He
did indeed appear
in a dream to the Ramban but merely said that once one is in heaven
everything becomes clear.

It has become "fashionable" in some circles whenever a tragedy happens
to place the blame on others. As Wolpoe says the thrust of the Rambam
is to use tragedy to blame oneself and do teshuva
and not to point fingers at others.
Recently ROY claimed that IDF soldiers who die it is because of their
sins. After a large hue
was raised he talked about the importance of the IDF and its soldiers
but never really retracted.
How he knows G-d's plans I don't understand? I truly do not believe
that various yeshiva
students who die early are secret sinners while those who live to 100
are saints.

As I have questioned before statistics show that people today
(including Jews) live a lot longer.
In the middle ages people lived until about 40-50 while today it is
70-80. Does anyone
claim that we are more righteous than the Ramah or his contemporaries?


-- 
Eli Turkel

>And then I noticed an interesting Baal Haturim (Vayishlach 32:17) explaining
>a mesoreh with "...Remez ledoros haboim sheyitnu shochad lesareihem !!".
>
>Over to the PC-isten here - to explain this...

Artscroll already did it for us <g>.  They add the comment: in order 
to secure our people's safety.

If that's the only heter for bribing the govt, I think most of us can 
agree . . .

-- Sholom

> > Not trying to be repetitious.  However,  the text does not imply
> > "ought not" - unless one is trying to read into it.  It is dangerous
> > to read current preconceptions and problems into the text.
>
>Shitas Dr. Meir Shinnar: let the text speak for itself - do not READ
>INTO IT, do NOT bring one's prejudices into it. Do not presume one's
>shitos MATCH the text, etc.
>
>Shitas R. Micha Berger:  View any text with one's learned
>pre-conceived notions and see it through THAT prism...
>
>There is no way to havea meeting of minds with these two contrary
>pre-suppositions.  There would probably be disagreement about text
>90%+ of the time.

Fascinating discussion.  Let me add something else into the 
mix.  Suppose one is in a situation where there are two men and three 
women.  Might one argue that if women might or might not be obligated 
that they should make a zimun?  (BTW, has anyone in this thread 
quoted the S"A HaRav, who writes that (in the case where there is 
less than 10 men) women may even separate themselves from the group 
to make their own zimun? (199:6)

-- Sholom

There is still a lot of confusion when it comes to Yiddishkeit vs Buddhism,
but this was a very enlightening article:
http://www.innerjew.com/BuddhisttoRabbi.html
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From: "Marty Bluke" _marty.bluke@gmail.com_ (mailto:marty.bluke@gmail.com) 


>>An  interesting question that can be asked is how does bechira interact
with  hashgocha pratis

Imagine 2 people Reuven and Shimon. Last Rosh Hashana  Shimon was
granted life for the year. Now Reuven and Shimon get into an  argument
and Reuven wants to kill Shimon. Can he kill him?  <<
 
>>>>

No, he cannot.  Hakol b'yedei Shomayim chutz miyir'as  Shomayim.  You can 
decide to do good, or decide to do evil, but whether  your plans succeed or not 
is not in your hands.  "Utzu eitza vesufar, dabru  davar velo yakum..."
 
Now if you are determined to be evil--if your goal in life is to be  a 
murderer, for example--then Hashgacha will use you as its agent when there is  a 
Heavenly decree against someone who has been sentenced to be  murdered.  
Megalgalin chov al y'dei chayav.  And since you  /volunteered/ to be a murderer, you 
will be punished for your act, and cannot go  crying to the Judge, "But I was 
only Your agent, You decreed that he should  die!"  That's why our enemies can 
be punished for what they do to us--they  are volunteers.  They didn't have to 
volunteer.



--Toby  Katz
=============



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R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> I wrote:<<You have brought no evidence that the sources I have cited are limited
> to an individual blaming himself for his own suffering. Furthermore if
> you want to claim that only a prophet can say such a thing than you need
> to justify why chazal make such statements all over Shas e.g.,  why was
> the Temple destroyed. In addition it seems to be a common practice
> throught the ages - as you yourself note with disapproval.>>
>
> First with regard to RYBS I strongly suggest reading "Out of the Whirlwind".
> He in fact strongly condemns those who attribute the Holocaust to sins
> of the people
> as trivializing the actions of the Nazis. 
Did he ever condemn making attributions to specific actions as causing 
sins or did he just insist that particular attributions being made were 
wrong?

> More basically finite man
> has no hope of
> understanding an infinite G-d and his ways. Hence, man can only use tragedy to
> improve his future but can never understand it.
>   
I was not talking about understanding tragedy but rather using it to do 
teshuva by publicly asserting causal  linkage.

> Chazal has ruach hakodesh which modern day gedolim do not have. 
Where do you see that assignment of a cause to tragedy requires nevuah 
or ruach hakodesh? Again the purpose is to motivate teshuva. It is 
possible that the attribution is incorrect - but if it brings about 
positive change the only legitimate objection possile is that you would 
want a different attribution made.


Bottom line is that you have apparently totally misunderstood what I 
have written. The sources I cited note that it is important to maintain 
the belief that good and bad are the consequences of one's behavior. 
Consequently these sources say that when something good or bad happens 
one should make the attribution to particular behavior. In addition the 
attributions are not just concerned with what happens to you as an 
individual but what happens to your community. The Kuzari acknowledges 
that we don't really know for sure what the causal relationships are. 
Nevertheless these rishonim [not chazal] assert that it is important to 
view causality between the actions of the individual and community and 
positive or negative results.

You haven't brought a single source  which says don't make attributions 
for bad happenings. At most Rav Soloveitchik is saying that the 
attributions proposed are not helpful or are clearly wrong. It is 
totally legitimate to assert that the proposed causal links others 
propose are wrong or are counterproductive. That doesn't mean that the  
approach is wrong.

If people said that the Holocaust resulted from people being judgmental 
or insensitive to others or being more obsessed with chumras than avodas 
hashem - would you have a problem with that?

Daniel Eidensohn

R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> I think Judaism, Torah, and religion in general would be
> better off admitting that we really do not understand how
> God works rather than parading around our speculations
> about God and claiming them as Dogma.

R' Daniel Eidensohn quoted the Menoras HaMeor:
> When a person has a calamity happen to him he should not
> think that it was just by chance.

The above two items are not contradictory. Please note that the Menoras HaMeor does NOT say what the reason for the calamity was. He only says that one should not think that it was by chance. One should think that there was indeed a reason, even though we do not know what that reason is.

R' Richard Wolberg responded:
> So tell me: What should a rasha think when good things
> happen to him? And what should've Hitler (y'mak sh'mo)
> thought when he was saved from a bomb attempt on his life?

The same thing: That there is indeed a reason, even though no one knows what it is.

The rasha would be tempted to think of the Divine Intervention as G-d's stamp of approval to his actions. We would be tempted to think of is a payment in full for the few good things which he has done.

But the truth is that no one knows. There are countless stories from Chazal which point out that we often get it backwards. Maybe Hitler's rescue was indeed a reward, or maybe Hashem wanted to keep him around so he could descend even further (like Pharaoh). Or maybe it was another reason. Who knows?

Akiva Miller



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