Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 63

Mon, 19 Nov 2007

• 1. What is Mindfulness and does Judaism have it (Sholom Simon)
• 2. Re: SEMI CRICLE MENORAH (Richard Wolpoe)
• 3. Re: What is Mindfulness and does Judaism have it (Richard Wolpoe)
• 4. Re: Mindfulness and Being Present in the Moment (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: What is Mindfulness and does Judaism have it (Richard Wolpoe)
• 6. Was Lavan daft, dense or what? (SBA Gmail)
• 7. Re A few notes on Parshas Vayetzei (SBA Gmail)

> >Less central in mussar discussions, but considered a primary middah by
> >RSWolbe is hislamdus -- the ability to learn from watching the moment
> >and how one responds to it. That is very similar to mindfulness, but
> >still, a very different thing.Hislamdus requires one not only be in
> >the moment, but also be able to use it toward the next moment.
>
>   The fact that Rav Wolbe zt"l (who was widely read and highly 
> educated in the Torah Im Derech Eretz Tradition) had to create a 
> new term, hislamdus, further strengthens my point that Mindfulness 
> is not indigenous to Judaism and to classic Jewish spiritual paths.

While I'm sure I don't fully appreciate the deepness of thought 
above, I wanted to offer a few examples that come to mind when hear 
about "Mindfulness" in Judaism.

1.  Ramban constantly talks about how doing mitzvos cultivates within 
us proper middos.  (E.g., his perush on shiluach ha'ken -- it's not 
about compassion for the bird, it's to inculcate within us a sense of 
compassion).  How it is possible for _any_ mitzvah to effect our 
middos unless we are mindful of the mizvah?

2.  An extreme example of this is the spiritual reason often given 
for O"Ch 2:4 that we put our right shoe on first, to be mindful that 
the "right side", symbolizing chesed, should predominate (and, for 
that matter, chassidim wear various articles of clothing for which 
the right buttons over the left (contrary to "regular" men's 
clothes)).  Same comment: how is it possible for this to help develop 
our chesed if we are not mindful of this notion when we are doing 
this halacha?  Or, to be redundant: it is impossible for this to 
develop our chesed if we do it by rote.  Doesn't this imply some 
mindfulness is needed?

3.  Why do we cover the challah for kiddush?  So the challah doesn't 
become embarrassed?  Rather, it's (again) to inculcate us to be 
sensitive to embarrassment.  And, again: how could it possibly 
accomplish that if we're not mindful of it.

4.  Why do we say a birchas nehenin?  We're not thanking HaShem for 
HaShem's sake -- but for us to inculcate a sense of 
gratitude.  Further, we have to be "present enough in the moment" to 
at least think about where that food came from in order to say the 
correct brocho.  (Of course, when we do it by rote, we lose that).

Now, it may be that this kind of Mindfulness is different than the 
Eastern religion Mindfulness.  Perhaps, rather than being fully 
"present in the moment" (as Eastern religions might posit), for us it 
is more along the lines of connecting to, or aligning ourselves 
along, HaShem's will.  But, we're connecting to His will not just by 
"doing", but by "contemplating" _as_ we're doing.  For us, being 
"present in the moment" is grasping a bit of what we are doing, why 
we are doing, and how it connects to a greater purpose -- as opposed 
to just being present in the moment for the sake of being present in 
the moment.

I often think of the following analogy to the aphorism of "stopping 
to smell the roses":  Judaism has all the tools to make you at least 
stop at the roses (thinking about which shoe to put on, which brocho 
to make, etc.), our challenge is, once we've stopped, to not do it by 
rote, and to actually smell that rose.  (not on shabbos <g>).

Does this make any sense?  Is it correct at all?  And, if yes and yes 
-- is this in the realm of the Mindfulness of which you speak?

-- Sholom

(PS: regarding that so-called kabbalistic reasoning for putting on 
the right shoe first -- which is something I've both heard and read 
all over the net -- anyone have a source for this?  I was told it was 
Mogen Avroham, but I didn't see it at O"C 2:4 (but I'm not a good 
reader, I might have missed it).  I didn't see it in the M"B ot S"A 
HaRav, either.  Anyone have a source?) 

On Nov 18, 2007 9:43 PM, areivim@sba2.com <areivim@sba2.com> wrote:

> From: "Menachem Posner" <>
> .. I was a asking whether having the lights arranged in a straight row is
> preferred to a semi-circular or curved arrangement. In other words, is a
> semi circle problematic in terms of being k'madurah?
> >>
>
> See KSA 139:9: "Haneros yihyu beshureh achas beshaveh lo echad gavoah
> ve'echad namuch.."
> which one could read as you say. However he goes on to say that a dish
> full
> of oil surrounded by wicks and is covered - it's OK. Ayen shom.
>
> SBA
>

re: Cirlce/semi-circle:
R. Shim'on Eiders' Hilchos Hanukkah opposes a semi-circular menorah
apparently al pi Rema.  See p. 15 for details.

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Nov 19, 2007 12:00 PM, Yonatan Kaganoff <ykaganoff@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> 5) R. Richard Wolpoe talking about not being distracted while involved in
> learning.  How is this any different than being so involved in playing video
> games that one doesn't notice the cold (or hunger or other people in the
> room with him)? Being absorbed in Torah learning is not Mindfulness.
>

Some quick points:

   1. My understanding that lack of distraction is approximately the same
   as being in the present moment. It is possible that betrays my concept of
   mindfulness as a bit superficial but that is about where I am holding on the
   mindfulness scale!
   2. I davka was pointing out that this Mishna was NOT davka about
   Learning Torah per se! and I used the illustration of an absent-minded or
   distracted surgeon.  Truee, the popular peshat of this Mishna IS with regard
   to Learning Torah, but persoanlyl I have  FELT it was more about paying
   attention to what you are doing than about learning Torah per se.  Again, if
   paying attention to what one is doing is NOT equivalent to being in the
   present moment then My understanding of mindfulness is somewhat flawed.



>
> So I am left with my original question.  Is Mindfulness or being Present
> in the Moment a Jewish virtue?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> I dunno for sure!  AISI it should be deemed as a valuable means to an end
in Judaism, but not an end in itself.   It is  jsut my understanding that
wheter it be Torah, Tefillah, or Shechita, one should be  "mindful" of what
one is doing, but re: mindfulness itself I am not so sure

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Nov 16, 2007 9:44 AM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, November 15, 2007 11:48 am, Yonatan Kaganoff wrote:
> :   Are Mindfulness or "Being Present in the Moment" Jewish values?
>
>
> Buddhism teaches a person to stop striving, that desire and striving
> are the cause of all misery. Judaism calls on us to shteig up the
> sulam (to use three languages in as many words).


Buddhims aiui is not a releasing of action but of desire to succeed on one's
action. One acts from a "natural" space instead of from a forced space. It
might be the difference between acting out of yir'ah vs. acting out of
ahavah.

When acting out of yir'eh,. eima,resses etc. are concomittant  emotions.
When acting out of a Zen space one acts naturally, just as a river flows, it
is effrotless.  It is the natural act of a master.

A new driver is "up-tgiht "and VERY zahir whilst driving.   A master driver
is very calm yet also very aware.

Baron von Richtoven admonished his fliers:  "Do not be ALARMED but be ALERT"
[or something similar.  Accomplished dog-fighters have very little emotions
whilst in a dog-fight.





>
>
> Metaphor for the math geek: Buddhism is about maximizing f(t),
> Judaism, about maximizing df/dt.
>
> Zehirus is about watching what we do in terms of its consequences, not
> in-and-of-itself. Menuchas hanefesh, in terms of making the right
> choices. Hislamdus, to make better choices the next time. All have
> links to the future, not just leaving you in the here-and-now.
> Mindfulness is simply a non-Jewish spin on the concept; again, IMHO.
>
>
>
> I also think that Buddhism's ethic is too passivist.



SheTir'u baTov!
> -micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger
>

I tend to agree.  But it is not necessary a true Buddhist value because a
Buddhist CAN act ethically w/o being emotionally over-wrought.  Thus, a
Buddhist protesting war might  picket calmly and naturally. whilst a Jew
might picker passionately.  A really good Buddhist might not be passive just
dispassionate, more like Mr. Spock.   But I DO agree, Buddhists as they are
today are passive.


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Nov 19, 2007 12:00 PM, Yonatan Kaganoff <ykaganoff@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>
> 5) R. Richard Wolpoe talking about not being distracted while involved in
> learning.  How is this any different than being so involved in playing video
> games that one doesn't notice the cold (or hunger or other people in the
> room with him)? Being absorbed in Torah learning is not Mindfulness.
>

Some quick points:

   1. My understanding that lack of distraction is approximately the same
   as being in the present moment. It is possible that betrays my concept of
   mindfulness as a bit superficial but that is about where I am holding on the
   mindfulness scale!
   2. I davka was pointing out that this Mishna was NOT davka about
   Learning Torah per se! and I used the illustration of an absent-minded or
   distracted surgeon.  Truee, the popular peshat of this Mishna IS with regard
   to Learning Torah, but persoanlyl I have  FELT it was more about paying
   attention to what you are doing than about learning Torah per se.  Again, if
   paying attention to what one is doing is NOT equivalent to being in the
   present moment then My understanding of mindfulness is somewhat flawed.



>
> So I am left with my original question.  Is Mindfulness or being Present
> in the Moment a Jewish virtue?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> I dunno for sure!  AISI it should be deemed as a valuable means to an end
in Judaism, but not an end in itself.   It is  jsut my understanding that
wheter it be Torah, Tefillah, or Shechita, one should be  "mindful" of what
one is doing, but re: mindfulness itself I am not so sure

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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From: Arie Folger < >

Lavan benefited from an experience we all strive for, but know that, living
in times of hester panim, we cannot expect: direct revelation. Before
reaching Ya'aqov's camp, G"d appeared to Lavan and told him to abstain from
talking to Ya'aqov either good or bad.



However, moments after relating that incident to Ya'aqov, he asks "lamah
ganavta et elohai?!" Is Lavan out of his mind? He just experienced
Revelation, and he asks for his idol?! How can he?

>>



To get some idea about what Uncle Lavan's trafim were and how they operated,
see Daas Zekenim miBT 31:19. The Targum Yonoson tells a similar story. These
were not some simple lifeless getchke - (eg like those models available in
the zeida Terach's AZ Emporium)



It quotes the Pirkei deRE's description  -



A human firstborn was slaughtered, it's head lopped off and salted - with
salt and spices. The name of a 'shem ruach tumah' was written upon a gold
piece - which was placed upon (or under) the tongue. This was then
positioned into a wall with a candle lit before it. They bowed to it and it
would talk.



And that is why Rochel stole it from her father - so this talking head
wouldn't disclose that they had escaped (or maybe where they went).



(BTW, I have no doubt that many people - who aren't overly makpid on 'Tammim
tihyeh im HE' would - given the chance - also make such use of such highly
sophisticated information technology...)



Meanwhile the Ramban suggests that the trafim were some sort of
fortune-telling clock.



In any case it's quite obvious that the ovdei AZ of those days also believed
in HKBH - but preferred to also have some additional
technological/witchcraft/magical 'back-up'.



SBA

sba@sba2.com
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From: "Gershon Dubin" < >

"SBA Gmail" <sbasba@gmail.com>

<<A few points to ponder and questions on the parsha.>>

Yasher koach.

-



You're welcome..



SBA: The Midrash 69:8 says that the Malach Hamoves had no power in the city
of Luz. So what happened to the senior citizens who were well past their
use-by dates?

Simple.  They were placed outside the walls of the city ? where they died.

(Sounds a bit like the Eskimo solution..)Would this be the first published
example of institutionalized euthanasia?>>



RGD: I'm not sure if it's this or another midrash, but the way I remember it
is when they get tired of living (this is common among very old people



From: Zev Sero SBA Gmail wrote:

They did no such thing.  Old people lived until they were tired of it, and
when they were ready to die *they* went outside the city.  They were not
"placed" outside by ungrateful children who didn't want to go on feeding
them!  No comparison to "euthanasia" at all.



SBA: They sure did - according to the Midrash 69:8 (which I was quoting):

Vezeh leshonoy: "Hee Luz - shelo sholat bo malach hamoves meolom.

Hazekenim sheba ma osim lohem? Kivun shehem zekenim harbeh - motziim osom
chutz lachomah vehem mesim.."



The version in the gemara Sotah 46B- however says that they walked out on
their own.



<<31:34 - Am I understanding it correctly that Rochel was sitting on her
camel INSIDE the tent? And if so, was/is this the done thing - having camels
in the tent that you live?>>



RGD: In my chumash it says she was sitting on the camel PILLOW;  presumably
when they brought that inside they left the camel outside (except maybe for
his nose <g>)



RZS: No, she was sitting on the *saddle*.  Which was indeed kept indoors, as
one would expect.



SBA: See the Ibn Ezra 31:34 that Rochel was sitting on the saddle - outside
of her tent.

-------



Another response - which I haven't yet seen on list (so I'll delete the
identity of the poster):



From: J

To: sbasba@gmail.com



I always enjoy your list of parsha questions.  [Thanks]

To my recollection, the source says that they would leave of their own

volition when they became tired of life [See above.]



.. but similar question vis-a-vis suicide, anyway.

Lich'orah it would only be a grama, similar to stopping anti-cancer

medication, as they would not necessarily die as soon as they left the

city.



> 29:11 - Vayishak Yaakov leRochel.  2 pesukim later re Lavan kissing Yaakov

> "Veynashek Lo".

> Is there any difference between 'vayishak' and 'vaynashek'?



What immediately stands out to me is that neshek is Modern Hebrew for

weapon, although not sure if the word has any basis in lashon

ha-kodesh.  Not sure what the effect of the grammatical difference

would be, though.





> 29:32 - Rashi dh Vatikra shemo Reuven - 'Omro re'u ma bein beni leben

> chami...'>

> The first obvious question is, the Torah gives a clear reason why Leah

> called him Reuven - 'ki ro'o Hashem be'onyi', so why is Rashi giving a

> different reason - which is also difficult to understand as Yosef, who is
a main feature of this - was yet to be born...



I recall hearing that Rashi is answering the question regarding why he

was named "Reuven", instead of, i.e., "Rayon".  The fact that Yosef

wasn't born yet fits in well, in that Leah possibly didn't herself

realize the significance of her choice of the name "Reuven" over

"Rayon", so therefore did not say the reason of Rashi explicitly in

the pesukim.



[If you look at the sources in the Ein Yaakov, that I mentioned, there is
something like that suggested.]



> But we see that his father Besuel who did have a son - Lavan - still sent

> his sister Rivka to do the same thing...?



Rivka went out to draw water, presumably for human use, which is a

much less labor-intensive job than watching sheep

[I got that one wrong. I confused her and Rochel..]



> 31:34 - Am I understanding it correctly that Rochel was sitting on her

> camel INSIDE the tent? And if so, was/is this the done thing - having

> camels in the tent that you live?



Also, if her only ailment was "derech nashim" why should she be

precluded from standing up or doing any type of physical activity?



SBA: Actually the Ramban (31:35) asks exactly that question.

He replies with a comprehensive description of how Niddos were considered in
those days - pretty strong stuff, which I suggest that the more feral
feminists do not look up...



SBA
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