Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 25

Wed, 24 Oct 2007

• 1. An-im Zemiros (Richard Wolberg)
• 2. Rabbi Shopping (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 3. Re: Kohanim in Cemeteries (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Religion and Falsifiability (Michael Poppers)
• 5. Re: Minhag Yisroel (Richard Wolpoe)
• 6. Re: Minhag Yisroel (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Minhag Yisroel (Richard Wolpoe)
• 8. Re: Minhag Yisroel (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Religion and Falsifiability (david guttmann)

The Agudas Achim in Hartford, Connecticut where I grew up, did Anim Z'miros
every Shabbos, as did other shuls - I believe Young Israel. I never thought
there was a machlokess about it being done. We also did "v'yatzmach purkanei
v'korev m'shichei" and "uvchen" yishtabach shimcha, every day. 

Memories...

Also, a question regarding the birkas Kohanim. The onesh for looking at the
kohanim was that one would go blind (chas v'shalom).  Now what was the
punishment if one violated looking at the kohanim a second time?

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071023/a4df5079/attachment.htm 

R'n CL:
"This friend of mine went for a number of years in her marriage without
having kids.  She and he went to doctors who checked them out and told her
basically, that she was ovulating during her shiva nekiim.  She went to her
Rav who told her there was nothing that could be done and just to keep
trying.  Some time later she got in touch with (not via her Rav) a certain
Dayan, who looked at the case, realised that she could get a clean bedika on
day four, allowed her to do a hefsek tahara on day four, and hey presto,
today, two beautiful kids."



A Rav once told me that the Issur of rabbi shopping is when you have a
Chaticha of Basar, and you take it to one Rav and he says Assur, and you
take it to a different Rav who says Muttar (like in Berachos 63b). But, if
you ask Rav A about a Hanhagah (for example, if you are allowed to sit in
the diagonal of Daled Amos Shel Hamispallel) and he says it is Assur, you
are allowed to ask another Rav, and if he says Muttar you may follow him.
(BTW, in R' AF's situation of a Tay-Sachs child, I think that the question
of whether one may Rabbi shop or not, might be Gufa Talui in the Machlokes
between R' MF and R' EW - no?) In R'n CL's friend's situation, it clearly
was a question of Hanhagah, and therefore Muttar. If she had done a Bedikah
on the fourth day, and brought it to the first Rav, who said Tamei - it
would then be Assur to go to the second Rav to ask him about that particular
Bedikah. Next month, though, she could go to the second Rav, first. 

KT,
MYG

 
 
From: "Jonathan Baker" _jjbaker@panix.com_ (mailto:jjbaker@panix.com) 

>>Even aside from that, kohanim go to the cemetery for the  shiva krovim,
or even for their spouse's shiva krovim, but stay on the  concrete
paths.  My grandmother's family was Kohanim.  Uncle  Malcolm came to
all the levayas for his sisters, and I think some of my Kahn  cousins
came as well, but stayed on the path. <<
 
>>>>>
For their shiva krovim, they can go to the cemetery.  For wife's shiva  
krovim, no.  Except as you say, by staying away from the kevarim and going  only 
where kohanim are allowed to go.  (Wife's shiva krovim are  irrelevant  -- 
wherever kohanim are allowed to walk, they are allowed to  walk regardless of whose 
burial it is.)
 
 
 
> > Naturally I have to wonder if this is one of those things we  have 
"always"
> known and "always" done that people really only started  doing with the
> passing of the last Lubavitcher rebbe. [--old  TK]

>>No, no, many of my mother's relatives died before the  Lubavitcher Rebbe.<<

>>>>>
Your mother's relatives used a kohen box to visit the cemetery before the  
Lubavitcher Rebbe passed away?
 
I must say I'm dubious.  Didn't you just say they stayed on the  path?  That 
doesn't sound like they used these new kohen boxes (which some  claim are not 
new at all, but I don't believe it).





--Toby  Katz
=============



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071023/5d35facf/attachment.html 

In Avodah Digest V24#14, RMYG responded to RRW:
>> But I was told
Mirshatarbed NISHt fu na kasah
We do NOT die from a question!? <<
> Rambam (Hilchos Avodas Kochavim 2:1-3) says that we do. <
WADR, that sounds like equating proper "v'darashta heiteiv" to improper
"tidrosh leiloheihem" just because d'rishah* is involved in both
situations.

*) and, it so happens, AZ

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071024/bd30a143/attachment.htm 

On 10/23/07, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
>
> Richard Wolpoe wrote:
>
> > Can we make the 5th of Iyyar a holiday like Purim NOWADAYS?
>
> If we had a Sanhedrin, whose authority was accepted by klal yisrael,
> then we could.  The fact that in practise we can't isn't because of
> some defect in the process but because we haven't got a Sanhedrin,
> and can't achieve enough unity to re-establish one. (Assuming that the
> Rambam is right that it *can* be re-established without Eliyahu Hanavi;
> of course, one unresolveable machloket among us is on that question
> itself: whether the halacha is like the Rambam.)
>
> --
> Zev Sero
>

Are you saying that re: Holidays we cannot operate as a Sanhedrin but re:
other mattes we can?

Meanwhile in the absence of a Sanhedrin by what authority did:

   1. Minhag Yisroel morph ma'riv from Reshus to Hova?
   2. Talmud Bavli acquire Halachic authority?
   3. Zohar  acquire legitimacy?
   4. Shulchan Aruch  acqire recognition?
   5. New Brachos emerge?
   6. Polygamy get banned?
   7. Mechiras Hametz emerge?
   8. Aveilus during Sefira become instituted?



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071024/4b9e9898/attachment.html 

Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> Are you saying that re: Holidays we cannot operate as a Sanhedrin but 
> re: other mattes we can?

No.


> Meanwhile in the absence of a Sanhedrin by what authority did:
> 
>    1. Minhag Yisroel morph ma'riv from Reshus to Hova?

It's a neder.  "Kiblu aleihem".


>    2. Talmud Bavli acquire Halachic authority?

As the Rambam says in his hakdama, Kol Yisrael accepted it as their
authority, just as one can accept ones own posek.  Asei lecha rav.


>    3. Zohar  acquire legitimacy?

Why would it need to "acquire" it?  It is what it is, and carries
its own legitimacy.  What would be a Sanhedrin's role here - to give
it some kind of "haskama"?


>    4. Shulchan Aruch  acqire recognition?

As what?  It's a sefer of halacha, like any other of its period
(between the rishonim and the acharonim).  It's a pretty good one,
especially with the Rema's additions, so it became popular, then
many people wrote commentaries on it so it became even more popular.
But in many cases we don't pasken like it (for various values of "we").


>    5. New Brachos emerge?

Post-Talmudic ones?  Good question, and that's why many don't say
them with shem umalchut.


>    6. Polygamy get banned?

Originally a cherem accepted by particular communities, and continued
as a minhag.  It's only binding on those communities that accepted it.


>    7. Mechiras Hametz emerge?

What's the problem with it?  Why would you need a Sanhedrin for it?
It doesn't involve any change in halacha at all.  I guess I just
don't understand the question.


>    8. Aveilus during Sefira become instituted?

Minhag.  Which is why there's so much variation in the details,
including on which days it applies.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                      	                          - Clarence Thomas

On 10/24/07, Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
>
> Richard Wolpoe wrote:
>
> > Are you saying that re: Holidays we cannot operate as a Sanhedrin but
> > re: other mattes we can?
>
> No.
>
>
> > Meanwhile in the absence of a Sanhedrin by what authority did:
> >
> >    1. Minhag Yisroel morph ma'riv from Reshus to Hova?
>
> It's a neder.  "Kiblu aleihem".


I didn't make the neder. how can a neder over-turn the Talmud? Can I be
noder against the Halacha?

>    2. Talmud Bavli acquire Halachic authority?
>
> As the Rambam says in his hakdama, Kol Yisrael accepted it as their
> authority, just as one can accept ones own posek.  Asei lecha rav.


So what?  most jews drive on Shabbos waht does THAT prove. Anbd who is tthe
Rambam to ictate Halachah!   we follow him LESS than we do  the Shulchan
Aruch?

>    3. Zohar  acquire legitimacy?
>
> Why would it need to "acquire" it?  It is what it is, and carries
> its own legitimacy.  What would be a Sanhedrin's role here - to give
> it some kind of "haskama"?


So it has zero halachic significance then?  We certainly do not acrod
Halachic signifcance to Aggadic passages in Talmud [se Rambam] so why
Zohar?  it's jsut another book - or is it more? And if is more why? And why
not put on TEfilin on Hulo Shel Moed base dupon Zohar. Ois this based upno
neder?

>    4. Shulchan Aruch  acqire recognition?
>
> As what?  It's a sefer of halacha, like any other of its period
> (between the rishonim and the acharonim).  It's a pretty good one,
> especially with the Rema's additions, so it became popular, then
> many people wrote commentaries on it so it became even more popular.
> But in many cases we don't pasken like it (for various values of "we").


So the Shulchan Aruch is NOT the book of Halachah. I can show you dozens of
books taht state it IS the book of Halachah. {e.g. See heshy Zelcers Mihna
companion on Niddah for example]  Are they all mistaken?

>    5. New Brachos emerge?
>
> Post-Talmudic ones?  Good question, and that's why many don't say
> them with shem umalchut.


Why does it mater post Talmud or Pre-Talmud. Your criteria is Sanhedrin not
Talmud

>    6. Polygamy get banned?
>
> Originally a cherem accepted by particular communities, and continued
> as a minhag.  It's only binding on those communities that accepted it.


Why should a community bind me? is a community a Sanhedrin? Can acommunioty
BIND me to do 5th of Iyyar as a day of Yom Tov ceasing from Melacha? If not
why not? If it can ban me from a2nd wife, why can't a community ban melacha?


>    7. Mechiras Hametz emerge?
>
> What's the problem with it?  Why would you need a Sanhedrin for it?
> It doesn't involve any change in halacha at all.  I guess I just
> don't understand the question.


I suggest you research the matter further as to how we seel hametz an dhow
the Talmud construes such a sale wand why the GRA objected to OUR Sale as it
exists now.

>    8. Aveilus during Sefira become instituted?
>
> Minhag.  Which is why there's so much variation in the details,
> including on which days it applies.


So how does Minahg have authority? And how does lag BA'omer get exmpted it
is not in Talmud AFAIK . At any rate it has not been rule dupno by a
Sanhdrin. But if Minahg can establish Aveilus during sefira why not a
holiday on 5 iyyar?
Mah nafshach!

--
> Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
> zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
>                                                   - Clarence Thomas
>



-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071024/bdbb012e/attachment.htm 

Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> On 10/24/07, *Zev Sero* <zev@sero.name <mailto:zev@sero.name>> wrote:

>>> Meanwhile in the absence of a Sanhedrin by what authority did:
>>>    1. Minhag Yisroel morph ma'riv from Reshus to Hova?

>>     It's a neder.  "Kiblu aleihem".

> I didn't make the neder.

Your ancestors did.  A person has the right to make a neder binding
on him and his future descendants.


> how can a neder over-turn the Talmud?

Huh?  How does it overturn the Talmud?

> Can I be noder against the Halacha?

Of course not.  "Mushba ve'omed meHar Sinai."  You can't vow to eat
pork, but you can vow not to eat beef, or to eat beef every Shabbos.



>>>    2. Talmud Bavli acquire Halachic authority?

>> As the Rambam says in his hakdama, Kol Yisrael accepted it as their
>> authority, just as one can accept ones own posek.  Asei lecha rav.

> So what?

All Israel accepted it so it's binding on All Israel.  Later poskim
were not accepted by everybody, so they're not binding on everybody.


>  most jews drive on Shabbos waht does THAT prove.

Nothing at all.  But if all Jews agreed to drive every Wednesday,
and accepted it on themselves and their descendants as a neder, then
it would be binding.  And if all Jews agreed to accept RYSE or ROY
as their rav and posek acharon, then his views would be binding on
everybody.


> Anbd who is the Rambam to ictate Halachah!

He's not.  He's giving the history of how Talmud Bavli came to be
the last source that is binding on everybody.



>>>    3. Zohar  acquire legitimacy?

>> Why would it need to "acquire" it?  It is what it is, and carries
>> its own legitimacy.  What would be a Sanhedrin's role here - to give
>> it some kind of "haskama"?

> So it has zero halachic significance then?  We certainly do not acrod 
> Halachic signifcance to Aggadic passages in Talmud [se Rambam] so why 
> Zohar?  it's jsut another book - or is it more? And if is more why? And 
> why not put on TEfilin on Hulo Shel Moed base dupon Zohar. Ois this 
> based upno neder?

Because it has halachic passages.  And its authority is that of its
authors, and that of the strength of its own content, which.  Assuming
that we are convinced by the reasons it gives not to put tefillin on
ch"m, we conclude that those in earlier generations who ruled to put
it on were mistaken, and wouldn't have said so had they known what we
know.   I'm not aware of anywhere in the gemara where it says to put
them on then.

What to do when there is an actual machlokes between the gemara and
the Zohar, is itself a machlokes.



> So the Shulchan Aruch is NOT the book of Halachah. I can show you dozens 
> of books taht state it IS the book of Halachah. { e.g. See heshy Zelcers 
> Mihna companion on Niddah for example]  Are they all mistaken?

If they say that it is the definitive halachic authority then they
are obviously mistaken.  It's trivial to find cases in which we don't
follow the ShA, even if by that term we mean to include the Rema.


>>>    6. Polygamy get banned?

>> Originally a cherem accepted by particular communities, and continued
>> as a minhag.  It's only binding on those communities that accepted it.

> Why should a community bind me? is a community a Sanhedrin? Can 
> acommunioty BIND me to do 5th of Iyyar as a day of Yom Tov ceasing from 
> Melacha? If not why not? If it can ban me from a2nd wife, why can't a 
> community ban melacha?

If they accepted it on themselves as their binding minhag, and you are
a member of that community, then I suppose they could.  The rules for
defining communities, and joining and leaving them, got fuzzy during
the great migrations of the 19th and early 20th century.  And some
minhagim were accepted not by communities but by each individual, so
they're binding on all their descendants even if they switch communities
(I've seen it suggested somewhere that kitniyot may be such a case,
but many others say the opposite).



>>> 7. Mechiras Hametz emerge?

>> What's the problem with it?  Why would you need a Sanhedrin for it?
>> It doesn't involve any change in halacha at all.  I guess I just
>> don't understand the question.

> I suggest you research the matter further as to how we seel hametz an 
> dhow the Talmud construes such a sale wand why the GRA objected to OUR 
> Sale as it exists now.

If you think there are grounds for objection to our sale as it exists
now, please mention them.  I'm not aware of any such grounds, or of
anybody who objects.



>>> 8. Aveilus during Sefira become instituted?

>> Minhag.  Which is why there's so much variation in the details,
>> including on which days it applies.

> So how does Minahg have authority?

It does.  "A minhag brecht a din".  But by definition its authority
is fuzzier than that of a din, because it emerges from the bottom up,
rather than being imposed by a specific authority.


> And how does lag BA'omer get exmpted it is not in Talmud AFAIK .

How could the Talmud mention an exemption to a minhag that it
doesn't mention in the first place, and that for all I know may not
even have existed in its day?


> At any rate it has not been rule dupno by a Sanhdrin.

No, it hasn't.  And therefore it isn't halacha, it's minhag.
Minhag is *not* halacha, it's a separate layer.  Had the Sanhedrin
enacted it it wouldn't be minhag.


> But if Minahg can establish Aveilus during sefira why not a 
> holiday on 5 iyyar?
> Mah nafshach!

Perhaps because those who started celebrating 5 Iyyar were already
bound by the minhag to mourn during sefirah, so it's arguable that
they had no authority to make a new exception to it.  Whereas Lag
B'omer may have been an exception from the beginning of the minhag
to mourn.  Especially if it comes from RSBY's instruction to rejoice
on the day of his "hilula", which was before any mention of the minhag
to mourn.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

RDR said:

>If I can translate, RMB says it would make him question, not the Torah, but
how we implement it today. 

 

Not necessarily. See the introduction to pirush Hamishna of the Rambam (page
23 in the Kapach edition) where he already asked the question (my
paraphrase) - Being HKBH did not create anything in vain and being that
under the moon man is the most prominent, and being that the goal of
humankind is to understand Muskalot why then did HKBH  create all these
people that do not understand a Muskal? We see that most people are without
knowledge pursuing bodily satisfaction and the perfect individual is rare? 

His famous twofold answer follows :All people exist to prepare the
environment and serve the few Ovdei Hashem and second to keep company to the
few savants. ( I interpret the second as a population that will
statistically provide  the few intelligent people - but that is my forced
interpretation in that Rambam).

If not for the Yeshivot and their followers there would not be the few Bnei
Aliyah that are out there. Elef nichnessu lebeit hamidrash ve'echad yatza
lehora'a.

 Could it be  better? Was it better at other times? Yes and probably. Lately
I have been reading about the Kehilot in Provence in the 13th and 14th
centuries and they seemed to have  had a quite sophisticated community with
the simple people much more advanced and serious. Read Meiri, Ralbag, Malmad
Hatalmidim, Livyat chen etc... The Kehilot were destroyed by Machloket and
Galut. (see Teshuvat Harashba and the response of r. Yedayah HaPenini and
Minchat Kenaot by R. Aba Mari at the end of the SHUT Harashba Dimitrovsky
edition).


David Guttmann
 
If you agree that Believing is Knowing, join me in the search for Knowledge
at http://yediah.blogspot.com/ 
 
Ve'izen vechiker (Kohelet 12:9) subscribe to Hakirah at www.hakirah.org 



------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 24, Issue 25
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."