Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 17

Mon, 22 Oct 2007

• 1. Re: May Kohanim visit the Rebbe's Ohel by means of a "box"? (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Minhag Yisroel and Gra on 2 Matzos vs.3 Matzos (Arie Folger)
• 3. Re: Minhag Yisroel and Gra on 2 Matzos vs.3 Matzos (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: What happened to the nefesh asher asu b'charan? (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: tower of Bavel (Lisa Liel)
• 6. Re: What happened to the nefesh asher asu b'charan? (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and Ever? (Zev Sero)
• 8. An-im Zemiros (RallisW@aol.com)
• 9. Re: What happened to the nefesh asher asu b'charan? (T613K@aol.com)
• 10. Re: What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and Ever? (T613K@aol.com)
• 11. Re: What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and Ever? (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 12. Re: May Kohanim visit the Rebbe's Ohel by means of a box (Harry Weiss)
• 13. May Kohanim visit the Rebbe's Ohel by means of a box (Gershon Dubin)
• 14. Re: May Kohanim visit the Rebbe's Ohel by means of a box (Moshe Y. Gluck)

T613K@aol.com wrote:
 
> My whole life I have known that kohanim don't go to cemeteries.  I've 
> been married to a kohen for 30 years, and that's just how it is -- 
> kohanim don't go to lavayos, they don't go to cemeteries, they don't 
> even go to their own parents' graves.

You lived for a while in Melbourne, where none of the above was the
case.  Cohanim *do* go to levayos, and sit in the chapel at the
cemetery, in a special "cohanim room" which doesn't share a roof
with the rest of the building, but from which they can see and hear
just like everyone else.  And they *do* visit kevarim that are in
the front row, standing in the road; no burials are done within 4 amot
of the roads, specifically for this purpose.


> In fact, kohanim are buried at 
> the edge of the cemetery so their kohen relatives can "visit" them from 
> across the way without having to actually enter the cemetery.

If they're outside the cemetery they don't need to be across the way,
they can come right up to the fence.

  
> Naturally I have to wonder if this is one of those things we have 
> "always" known and "always" done that people really only started doing 
> with the passing of the last Lubavitcher rebbe.

Cohanim have been going to the L ohel since 1950, using a human mechitza
to separate them from the graves along the path on the way.  And I'm
sure this wasn't a chidush then either.


> And is it OK for kohanim to visit other kevarim or only those of their 
> rebbe?

The same box should work to go anywhere in a cemetery, so long as the
kohen is sure that there's nobody buried underneath him.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

RJR wrote:
> As a general rule I think your description is fairly accurate but then I
> would think it is disingenuous for one (not saying this of you) to say as a
> general rule "what can I do, my hands are tied?" -i.e. under this
> understanding there is SOME truth to the statement (i.e. the R' Willig
> story) that where there is a halachik will there is a halachik way, it's a
> question of issue, ?and perception of severity ?and people involved.

What is the R' Willig story?

BTW, it is actually true that where there is aN ACCEPTABLE halakhic will BY AN 
APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY, there sometimes/oftentimes is a halakhic way.

Not only 'et la'assot laShem, mishum eivah and mishum darkhei shalom are 
relevant, but also she'at hade'haq and hefsed merubeh, for example.

However, indeed, the original author of the now mangled quote did not want to 
include the two important conditions I added to the quote.
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

 


What is the R' Willig story?


--
Arie Folger
=======================================
He got involved in the prenup issue due to a maaseh shehaya.
KT
Joel Rich
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Rashi states that Avraham and Sara were megayer many people. What
happened to these people? How come we don't hear anything about them?
_______________________________________________
I assume they "converted" to monotheism but didn't join their Rebbi for
a further trip(physical or spiritual)
Interesting question to me is could they have (byitchak yikarei...)

KT
Joel Rich

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On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:31:37 +0200, "Eli Turkel"
<eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:

>>The Gemara in Shabbos 10b says that at the time of Lot's escape, 
>>S'dom was 52 years old and Tzoar was 51. Rashi there states the 
>>following: "Sdom preceded (Tzoar) by one year), as it explains that 
>>Sdom was 52, because you must say that the builders of the tower 
>>were in Shinar, and there was no population in the world except in 
>>that Bik'ah, as it writes "And the entire Land was one language.... 
>>and it was when they travelled from the east... and from there they 
>>dispersed to other places when they were scattered and they built 
>>themselves cities; and from the time they were dispersed until Sdom 
>>was destroyed it is but 52 years, for at the end of the days of 
>>Peleg is when the dispersion happened, as it says in Seder Olam...
>>calculate the years of Peleg and it comes out that the year he died 
>>in was Avraham's 48th year, and when Sdom was destroyed that was 
>>the 99th year of Avraham...
>>
>This contradicts the various theories that only a few people were in
>Shinar at the time of the dispersion. Thus, we return to my question 
>that Ur of the Chaldees seems to be older. Furthermore it implies 
>that Charan and Egypt were just beginning when Abraham visited them
>i.e Tzohar is not just that city but all of Egypt including the 
>Pharoh dynasties were less than 51 years old. It also eliminates the 
>ancient Sumer, Akkadian etc dynasties not to speak of China.

Fair enough.  But how does Ur of the Chaldees appear to be older? 
And what is the problem with Egypt of the Pharaohs starting around
the time of Avraham?  And why do you think it eliminates the ancient
Sumer and Akkadian dynasties?  I don't know enough (hardly anything)
about China to be able to address that, but I do know that there's no
problem with Egypt, Sumer and Akkad.

If you're thinking that the Ur III dynasty is Ur Kasdim, I would have
to differ with you on that.  The Ur III dynasty, according to the
work I've done, postdates the Exodus, which occurred during the
Akkadian dynasty of Sargon and Naram-Sin.  And since we left Egypt at
the end of the Egyptian Old Kingdom, I don't see why the beginning of
the Old Kingdom couldn't have been roughly coeval with Avraham's
visit.

Lisa

--
The Book of Esther in the Light of History, now available at:
http://www.lulu.com/starways/

Images from a Twisted Mind at http://www.cafepress.com/starways/

Marty Bluke wrote:
> Rashi states that Avraham and Sara were megayer many people. What
> happened to these people? How come we don't hear anything about them?

AIUI they lived and died, but their children didn't continue in their
"strange cult", just as most new religious groups today don't last into
the next generation.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Marty Bluke wrote:
> The Gemara in Sanhedrin 59a tells us that a goy who learns Torah is
> chayav misa. If so what were they allowed to learn in Shem and Ever's
> yeshiva? What did they learn all day?

Why can't a goy learn Torah?  Because it's "morasha kehilat yaacov";
it's both our "property" and our "bride", and therefore a goy who
intrudes on our relationship with the Torah is metaphorically guilty
of both "theft" and "adultery".  Of course this *is* only metaphorical,
which is why he isn't *really* chayav mita; all that means is that it's
a really bad thing.

But before mattan torah none of this was true.  The Torah *didn't*
belong to anyone in particular.  Whatever Adam passed down to those of
his descendants interested in learning it was in the public domain.

Even nowadays, goyim are allowed to learn anything that's relevant to
them, and since they're required to believe pretty much everything that
we do, it would seem to follow that they can and should learn everything
related to theology, machshava, etc.  They're also allowed to take on
almost any mitzvah they like, so it follows that they can learn all the
details of the mitzvot, in order to know what there is to choose from.
And certainly they may and should learn all the laws of amira lenochri,
bishul akum, etc, so they know what they can and can't do for Jews,
kashrut so they know what food they can give Jews, etc.

This doesn't leave a lot of Torah that they can't learn, which leads me
to the conclusion (for which I have no explicit source, but which seems
almost muchrach to me) that "goy shelamad torah" doesn't refer to actual
study of material but to the intent of the learning.  What we have that's
special isn't the information that's in the Torah but the *mitzvah* of
Talmud Torah.  We learn Torah not just so we should know what's in it,
but because the learning itself is a mitzvah.  Even someone who is baki
in every aspect of Torah, and has a perfect memory, still has to learn
for its own sake.  It's this mitzvah that creates a special bond between
Am Yisrael and the Torah; when we learn the words we become one with
them and with their Giver, Who put Himself into them ("ana nafshi ktavit
yehavit").

And it seems to me that *that* is what's forbidden to goyim; learning
Torah for the sake of deveikus with it is like the intimacy between a
husband and wife, and therefore when a stranger attempts the same kind
of relationship it's like making a pass at someone else's wife.  But
learning Torah for the information that it contains is like having a
completely platonic conversation with a married woman, with no hint of
intimacy.  And similarly, learning Torah for the sake of uniting with
it is like breaking into someone's home, while learning it for the sake
of finding out what it says is like admiring someone's home from across
the street.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Is one permitted to recite An-im Zemiros on Shabbos or Yom Tov as a  majority 
of Ashkenazic shuls do? Is one allowed to recite it at the end of  davening? 
Should one recite the concluding section of "Lcho HaShem  HaGeduloh...." which 
is of later origin?



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From: "Marty Bluke" _marty.bluke@gmail.com_ (mailto:marty.bluke@gmail.com) 

>>Rashi  states that Avraham and Sara were megayer many people. What
happened to these  people? How come we don't hear anything about them?<<

 




>>>>>
After Avraham and Sarah died, their followers slipped away, and went back  to 
their old ways.  I don't remember where I read that, but  somewhere.
 

--Toby  Katz
=============



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From: "Marty Bluke" _marty.bluke@gmail.com_ (mailto:marty.bluke@gmail.com) 

 

>>The Gemara in Sanhedrin 59a tells us that a goy who learns  Torah is
chayav misa. If so what were they allowed to learn in Shem and  Ever's
yeshiva? What did they learn all day?<<
 
>>>>>
My husband used to teach Noahide classes and still communicates with a lot  
of Noahides on a Noahide emailing list.  He did a lot of research when he  
taught those classes and found that there is a LOT to teach, much more than  
people realize, about the Sheva Mitzvos Bnai Noach.  In reality, each  of the seven 
mitzvos is a /category/ of mitzvos with many details.  
 
To give an example:  one of the seven is gilui arayos.  This  includes -- 
among other things -- a prohibition on adultery.  So a ben  Noach is not allowed 
to take another man's wife.  But how do Noahides get  married?  What 
constitutes a wife?  Can they get divorced, and if so,  how?  (Strangely, in Torah 
sources, my husband found two opinions, one like  the Protestants -- yes, they can 
get divorced -- and one like the Catholics  -- no, they cannot get divorced)
 
So in the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever they learned all the Torah which is  
relevant to Noahides, which is actually quite a lot.



(It is also possible that before the Torah was given, it was mutar for them  
to learn the Torah, just as it was mutar for Yakov to marry two  sisters.)


--Toby  Katz
=============



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R' Zev Sero wrote:
> And it seems to me that *that* is what's forbidden to goyim; learning
> Torah for the sake of deveikus with it is like the intimacy between a
> husband and wife, and therefore when a stranger attempts the same kind
> of relationship it's like making a pass at someone else's wife. 

*Netziv[1] <#_ftn1>**(Devarim 33:4): Torah was commanded to us by 
Moshe?* Our Sages (Sanhedrin 91b) explain the implication of this verse 
by saying that any teacher who withholds halacha from his students is as 
if he stole the student?s inheritance from him since the Torah is an 
inheritance for a Israel from the six days of Creation. You should note 
that it doesn?t say if the teacher witholds a verse from his students 
but rather withholds halacha from one who is capable of understanding 
it. Our Sages also learn from this verse that an idol worshipper who 
studies Torah deserves the penalty of death from Heaven. This latter 
case is not concerned with simply learning Torah but with someone who 
investigates thoroughly the profound depths of halacha as  is stated by 
the Taz (O.H. #47:1). We also discuss this in detail in Vayikra (18:5). 
This distinction between superificial study and profound analysis seems 
inherent in the simple meaning of this verse.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


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??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????. ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? 
???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??????. ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? 
??????. ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??????. ??? ???? ?? ??"? ??"? 
???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????. ??? ?? 
????? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???"? ??"? ???"? ???? ?"?. 
????"? ??' ????? (??:?) ????? ???????.  ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????...

> From: T613K@aol.com

> And is it OK for kohanim to visit other kevarim or only those of their  rebbe?
>
Our local Chabad Shaliach is a Kohen and preforms Levayas from the box.

Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@panix.com

From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
 
<<Thanks R' ZS for explaining what this issue was all about. I'd like to
suggest that this is not much of an innovation. Doesn't the Gemara say
that
people would be lowered into the Kodesh Kadashim to do maintenance in a
similar movable box?  >>

So they would not have hana'ah from seeing the beis kodesh hakadashim.
Please explain what this has to do with tum'as kohanim?

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

> From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
> 
> <<Thanks R' ZS for explaining what this issue was all about. I'd like
> to
> suggest that this is not much of an innovation. Doesn't the Gemara say
> that
> people would be lowered into the Kodesh Kadashim to do maintenance in a
> similar movable box?  >>
R' GD: 
> So they would not have hana'ah from seeing the beis kodesh hakadashim.
> Please explain what this has to do with tum'as kohanim?

AIUI, it was so that the worker wouldn't be in the Kodesh Hakadashim - which
is assur unless one is a Kohen Gadol and is performing the Avodah of Yom
Kippur. Same thing here - the movable mechitzos make the Kohen not be in the
cemetery, but in a different structure. Perhaps my memory is faulty -
unfortunately, I also don't remember where the Gemara is, so as to look it
up. Mareh Makom, anyone?

KT,
MYG



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