Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 10

Wed, 17 Oct 2007

• 1. Re: When was the Torah given to Moshe? [was: Resh Lakish] (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 2. Re: tower of bavel (Lisa Liel)
• 3. Re: tower of bavel (Zev Sero)
• 4. Shmittah (JRich@Sibson.com)
• 5. yissoschur zevulin and tzedoko (A & C Walters)
• 6. Re: mitzvat aseh (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Hebrews/Israelites/Bnei Yisroel - Jews (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Mitsvat Sukkah is almost unique (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: yissoschur zevulin and tzedoko (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: plants after the flood (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: yissoschur zevulin and tzedoko (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: mitzvat aseh (Richard Wolpoe)
• 13. Re: Hebrews/Israelites/Bnei Yisroel - Jews (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Mitsvat Sukkah is almost unique (Richard Wolpoe)

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:23:06 -0400
Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:

> AFAIK there is no question that the Torah was not written down until
> the day before Moshe's death.  Nor AFAIK does anyone hold that the
> actual text of the Torah as we have it was given earlier than that
> date.  The question is only when he was taught the laws that are in

Gittin 60a: "le'man de'amar torah megillah megillah nitnah"

Rashi (DH megillah megillah nitnah): "ke'she'nemra parshah le'mosheh
hayah kosvah u'le'be'sof mem shanah ke'she'nigmeru kol ha'parshiyos
hibrun be'giddin ve'tafran"

Tosfas (DH Torah): teimah de'chsiv va'yikach sefer ha'bris va'yikra
be'aznei ha'am ... ve'nirah le'fareish de'lo ka'amar hasumah nitnah
shelo nichtivah ad le'be'sof ela she'al ha'seder nichtivah ...


> Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
> zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:35:20 +0200, "Eli Turkel"
<eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> According to simple pshat all mankind lived in Bavel until the tower
> of Bavel and following dispersion. According to the standard 
> chronology this occurred shortly before the year 2000 from creation 
> i.e. some 3800 years ago.
> 
> 1. Noach, Shem, Ever, Abraham were all alive no one seemed to have 
> any influence especially since everyone there was a descendent of 
> Noach (and Shem?)

Ten generations?  I would imagine that most people alive at the time
weren't even aware that Noach was still alive.  Shem and Ever had a
school, but they weren't necessarily public figures.  Can you imagine
if your 10x great-grandfather were still alive?  Over the course of
centuries, surely he wouldn't be hanging around bouncing his
grandchildren on his knee.

> 2. Avraham goes to Canaan some 25 years later. At that time Ur, and 
> most of mesoptamia and Caanan and Eygpt is well populated with 
> kings and major governments etc. According to the parsha this all 
> occurred within an exceeding short time.

How so?  I don't get why you say that simple pshat says all of
mankind was resident in Mesopotamia.  Simple pshat always includes
context.  And it's clear from the context that there were people
living in Eretz Yisrael (the cities of the plain) and Egypt, at the
very least.  Simple pshat might be that Shinar was the world capitol,
but that's about all.

> In general were there any people in EY before the dispersion?

If Arei Hakikar were in Eretz Yisrael, then yes.  Presumably the
Philistines were in Philistia as well, and depending on where you
consider Seir to have been, there were probably Horites there.

> 3. The usual question of secular records that indicate dynasties 
> older than 3800 years old some in the middle east and some far away.

I'm not convinced that this is the case.  At one point, the First
Dynasty in Egypt was dated 6000 BCE.  Since then, it's been brought
down by millenia.  That story isn't over yet.

I noticed that this was a condensation of something you posted back
in 1999:

http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol03/v03n151.shtml#04

Did you not get any answers at the time?

Lisa

--
The Book of Esther in the Light of History, now available at:
http://www.lulu.com/starways/

Images from a Twisted Mind at http://www.cafepress.com/starways/

Lisa Liel wrote:

>> In general were there any people in EY before the dispersion?
> 
> If Arei Hakikar were in Eretz Yisrael, then yes.  Presumably the
> Philistines were in Philistia as well, and depending on where you
> consider Seir to have been, there were probably Horites there.

Rashi says that four of the Arei Hakikar were settled immediately
after the Dispersion, and Tzoar one year later.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

I've seen some flyers for purchasing a piece of eretz yisrael to allow you to be makayem mitzvat shmittah.Is there a similar kiyum to loan money without a pruzbul?  Any movement to do this as well?KTJoel Rich 

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Is there a makhlokos if a shtar is needed to establish a Y/Z relationship? I remember seeing either a CI or RMF about it, but I can't find where.

Is there a kium of ztedoko? What about mayse gelt?

Kol tuv

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally - A spam blocker that actually works.
http://www.bluebottle.com/tag/4

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On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 10:44:03AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: RMF claims that the mitzvah of yishuv EY is a mitzvat Aseh kiyumit like
: Tzizit where one is not required to do it but one gets a mitzva if one does.

: R. Shapira (Ztl) disagreed and pointed out that if one wears a cloth
: with 4 corners then one is required to put on tzizit...
...
: I once heard a defense of RMF comparing it to eating matzah on the
: later days of Pesach according to the Gra where there is a mitzvah if
: one eats matzah.

: Does anyone know of other mtzvot Aseh which are completely voluntary?

Women have many.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 12:23:50PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: The gemara in Megillah explains that Mordechai was a "Yehudi" because
: it means anyone who is "modeh baHashem vekofer baavodah zarah".  On
: that basis not only can all Bnei Yisrael be called Yehudim, but so
: can any Ben Noach who accepts the truth of the Torah and keeps the 7
: mitzvot.

The gemara gives a beautiful derashah for the word. THat's not the same
as finding it origin.

IOW, the qestion of what we can learn from Hashem working it out that we
are called "Yehudim", or even (if you wish) a reason we can find for
*why* He chose to, is disconnected to the question of *how* the name
came to be.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 11:41:31AM -0400, Elliott Shevin wrote:
: ... As an aside, tumah is not intrinsically a bad thing....

I think that's a difference between nigleh and nistar.

According to the gemara, you have to wash neigl vasser before tefilah.
According to the Zohar, and this made it into halakhah pesuqah (outside
of Teiman), one is supposed to wash as soon as possible. Tum'ah is
transformed from something that contradicts certain mitzvos to something
inherently wrong and to be minimized.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A sick person never rejects a healing procedure
micha@aishdas.org        as "unbefitting." Why, then, do we care what
http://www.aishdas.org   other people think when dealing with spiritual
Fax: (270) 514-1507      matters?              - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 11:22:39PM +0200, A & C Walters wrote:
: Is there a makhlokos if a shtar is needed to establish a Y/Z
: relationship? I remember seeing either a CI or RMF about it, but I can't
: find where.

Shtar needed for fulfil what? You're giving someone money, and you're
enabling talmud Torah. I can see there being greater value in guaranteeing
the parnasah, so as to lift the worry from the lomeid, and to make the
commitment more real for the mefarneis.

But what chalos do you think is enhanced by having a shetar?

: Is there a kium of ztedoko? What about mayse gelt?

Back a step. Is maaser kesafim deOraisa, deRabbanan or minhag chassidus.
That's a pretty broad machloqes rishonim, with very different implication
about how to decide further questions.

But why wouldn't this be maaser? Does maaser require one not expect a
special kind of sechar for who one chose to support?

Or are you asking whether this financial arrangement works as a paycheck,
not tzedaqah. It would then have to be sechar bitul, since he can't take
pay for actual learning. And what would thaty say about the mefarneis's
contribution.

In short, I think you make too many assumptions about the "reality"
of the concepts involved that I am not as sure of.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is harder to eat the day before Yom Kippur
micha@aishdas.org        with the proper intent than to fast on Yom
http://www.aishdas.org   Kippur with that intent.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Wed, Oct 17, 2007 at 10:08:49AM -0600, Daniel Israel wrote:
: Why is this any more or less of a kasha then the animal species 
: that only appear in the same places?

BTW, R' Hirsch associates the uniqueness of flora and fauna of each
location to be part of the creation of language of the dor hahaflagah.
I believe he intends to say that the differences in ecologies was
produced in order to make each nation unique, and thereby destroy the
possibility of "devarim achadim". RnCL thought I was reading in
something that's not there.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow
micha@aishdas.org        man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries
http://www.aishdas.org   about his own soul and his fellow man's stomach.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rabbi Israel Salanter

 



Is there a makhlokos if a shtar is needed to establish a Y/Z
relationship? I remember seeing either a CI or RMF about it, but I can't
find where.
 
Is there a kium of ztedoko? What about mayse gelt?
 
 ======================
For R' MF take see Iggrot Moshe Y"D 4:37 (No,No)
KT
Joel Rich  <http://www.bluebottle.com/tag/4> 
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
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On 10/17/07, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> .
>
> Does anyone know of other mtzvot Aseh which are completely voluntary?
>
> kol tuv
>
> --
> Eli Turkel
>

Shechitas Hullin [yo udont' have to eat meat].
KorBan Nedavos
There are probably a lot of them


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 12:23:50PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : The gemara in Megillah explains that Mordechai was a "Yehudi" because
> : it means anyone who is "modeh baHashem vekofer baavodah zarah".  On
> : that basis not only can all Bnei Yisrael be called Yehudim, but so
> : can any Ben Noach who accepts the truth of the Torah and keeps the 7
> : mitzvot.
> 
> The gemara gives a beautiful derashah for the word. THat's not the same
> as finding it origin.
> 
> IOW, the qestion of what we can learn from Hashem working it out that we
> are called "Yehudim", or even (if you wish) a reason we can find for
> *why* He chose to, is disconnected to the question of *how* the name
> came to be.

Nice, but that's not what the gemara says.  It's Megilla 13a, at the top
of the page.  The gemara is discussing the apparent contradiction between
"ish Yehudi" and "ish Yemini", and various answers are suggested, e..g
that he came from both tribes, or that Yehuda gets a share in his credit
because David didn't kill Shim'i.  Then R Yochanan says: "le'olam
mibinyamin ka'ati", he came only from Binyamin and not from Yehuda.
"So why was he called Yehudi?  Because he denied AZ, for anyone who
denies AZ is called Yehudi, as it says 'There are Jewish men [...who
don't serve your gods]' (Daniel 3:12)."

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On 10/17/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 11:41:31AM -0400, Elliott Shevin wrote:
> : ... As an aside, tumah is not intrinsically a bad thing....
>
> I think that's a difference between nigleh and nistar.
>
> According to the gemara, you have to wash neigl vasser before tefilah.
> According to the Zohar, and this made it into halakhah pesuqah (outside
> of Teiman), one is supposed to wash as soon as possible. Tum'ah is
> transformed from something that contradicts certain mitzvos to something
> inherently wrong and to be minimized.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger


Questions:

   1. How did the Gra restore the use of 2 matzos at the Seder based upon
   the peshat of  Gmara when the Halachic trend  as to use 3?  Certainly Rema
   would follow Tosafos and Rosh but even  the Beis Yosef rejects Rambam and
   Rif because the world Minhag in his day was to use 3 as per Tso. and Rosh
   2. Bottom line: Isn't the Gra positing that we may ALWAYS go back to
   the Gmara and current  Halchic norms even if based upon Tradition or poskim?

.[FWIW Kaf hachayyim mentions this GRA and reports it as "dimissed" by
"acharonim"]

-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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