Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 8

Tue, 16 Oct 2007

• 1. Hebrews/Israelites/Bnei Yisroel - Jews (RallisW@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Hebrews/Israelites/Bnei Yisroel - Jews (Micha Berger)
• 3. growing grapes (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: Mitsvat Sukkah is almost unique (Daniel Israel)
• 5. Re: Moshiach-tzeiten (Michael Poppers)
• 6. Re: growing grapes (yzkd@aol.com)
• 7. Re: Mitsvat Sukkah is almost unique (Elliott Shevin)
• 8. Re: Hebrews/Israelites/Bnei Yisroel - Jews (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: growing grapes (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: How Bitter Can A Month Be? Bittersweet. (Lisa Liel)
• 11. Re: "Es Yom HaShmini Ho'Atzeres Hazeh" (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: tower of bavel (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: tower of bavel (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: THE I.R.S.O. AUDIT (Micha Berger)

A very common misnomer used by both clergy and lay  people, is to refer to 
the Bnei Yisroel in the Torah as  Jews. 
 
For example; when the Jews left Egypt. Forgetting that 11 other tribes also  
left Egypt?
 
Let's keep in mind Moshe Rabbeinu was not a Jew. 
 
The first person in Tanach that I am aware of, that was called a Jew, was  
Mordechai.



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On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 07:46:40PM -0400, RallisW@aol.com wrote:
: A very common misnomer used by both clergy and lay  people, is to refer to 
: the Bnei Yisroel in the Torah as  Jews. 

I thinnk there is a solid reason for it. Although I agree that it's a
misnomer.

In some circles, the people of the Bible are called by a different name
so as to (1) let them neglect the fact that the people they hate is the
same nation as that of their holy book; and/or (2) play down the value
of Judaism by claiming a disconnect between that religion and outs. E.g.
claiming Chazal invented Judaism.

: For example; when the Jews left Egypt. Forgetting that 11 other tribes also  
: left Egypt?
: Let's keep in mind Moshe Rabbeinu was not a Jew. 
: The first person in Tanach that I am aware of, that was called a Jew, was  
: Mordechai.

"Jew" doesn't refer to sheivet Yehudah. Mordechai, for example, was from
Binyamin. To be a Jew means to be a survivor of Mamlekhes Yehudah. Which
would include Yehudah, Binyamin, Shim'on, those from Levi stationed in
MY, and refugees from Mamlekhes Yisrael.

Mikhah, of Pesel Mikhah infamy, lived in Dan. I do not know if that is
typical of Mosheh's descendents; just to answer the curious question if
most of Moshe's descendents are Jews.

Jew also refers to the fact that we are a nation built on hakaras hatov
(from Leah's "hapa'am oseh es H') -- and in that sense, Moshe certainly
qualified. That allows us to emphasize continuity, to teach our children
in a language which reminds us of the unbroken chain and the unity
of family from the Yotz'ei Mitzrayim to our children, grandchildren
and beyond.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
micha@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

<<> In the days of cheap grapes, it used to be considered 3 years to the
> first commercial crop.  That is to say, you'd plant a dormant bench
> graft in the winter, it would bud and grow up a line the first year,
> during which you would top>>

This assumes that the vineyard starts with a graft. Is there any
discussion of how
plants grew again after the flood? Did Noah take seeds on board or
grafts or something else?
Chumash only discusses animal life and not plant life

-- 
Eli Turkel

Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> Now back to my hobby horse. The better parellel to Sukkah imho is not to 
> yishuv EY but to  entry to the Beis haMIkdash where one is immersed in 
> kedusha.  This  goes along with the term "Sukkas David", that each 
> Sukkah is reminiscent not so much of anenei hakavod but rather of the 
> Sanctuary -  hence the name Tabernacles.

Maybe I missed something, but being in E"Y is not being immersed in kedusha?

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

In Avodah Digest V24#2, RJJB asked:
> Whose opinion is it that death will cease when Moshiach comes? <
Y'sha'yahu's (25:8, referring to what will occur "bayom hahu...ki malach H'
Tzvaos b'har Tziyon uviYrushalayim..." [24:21ff.])? :-)

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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This assumes that the vineyard starts with a graft. Is there any
discussion of how
plants grew again after the flood? Did Noah take seeds on board or
grafts or something else?
Chumash only discusses animal life and not plant life

See Rashi Breishis 9:20 and Sisei Chacomim and Maskil L'dovid among other Mforshei Rashi.

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
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Rn. Toby Katz writes: > To me the difference is so intuitively obvious that I am having trouble even > putting it into words. There is one kind of mitzva that you are lechatchila > obligated to do -- like sukka, matza, shofar and a whole bunch more -- but > if something goes wrong, then you are patur (if you get sick, for example). > Then there is a whole nother kind of mitzva that only kicks in in the first > place if something goes wrong, if something needs to be corrected -- e.g., > going to the mikva if you became nidah (which status -- nidus -- would 
> not even exist but for Chava's sin). > > In the first set of mitzvos, you seem to be saying something like, "There is > no chiyuv to make sure you are not exempt from these mitzvos." But > actually, there /is/ such a chiyuv. That is, you are not allowed to do something > deliberately that will cause you to be exempt from these mitzvos. Like, you > can't make yourself sick on purpose so that you won't have to eat in the sukka.>  It seems to me you've named an issur, not a chiyuv: AVOID becoming patur. There are cases where we take positive steps to make sure we're chayav (arba kanfos comes to mind), but I don't think you're speaking of that. I question the idea that niddah is a case of something going wrong. Adaraba: if you're not menstruating, you're not ovulating; becoming niddah indicates that your body is functioning properly. (My daughter was having trouble with the frequency of her periods, and mentioned that if it weren't corrected, it could lead to cancer!) The physiology being thus, I don't see a reason to think of niddah as the result of Chava's sin. The pasuk only mentions pain of childbirth. You could add cramps to that, I suppose, but menses are normal and probably would have been, chet or no. As an aside, tumah is not intrinsically a bad thing. It's a barrier to, say, entering the Beis Hamikdash, in order to emphasize the kedusha of that place; and in the case of niddah, marital relations. But you become tamei 
through tending to the dead, giving birth, and other aspects of normal living we 
consider to be desirable within Torah. > You can't seriously be claiming that being in good health is just a > "situational" grounds for keeping the mitzva of Sukkos the way "getting divorced" > is a situational grounds for giving a get or becoming nidah is a situational > grounds for going to the mikva. No, I'm not. I didn't offer any examples of situational mitzvos, and didn't intend to imply that sukkah is one. Please forgive the confusion. I think Michael Kopinsky's reply better expresses what I was trying to say 
when I suggest that mikvah is every bit as much a mitzvah as sukkah, 
and therefore every bit as much a mitzvah performed with the entire 
body: > I agree with your distinction between mitzvos for which the chiyuv is only> generated by the circumstances (like tevillas nidah) and mitzvos where the> chiyuv exists l'chatchila, even if the circumstances sometimes create a> p'tur. However, I don't know to what extent that is relevant. Birchas> hamazon is a mitzvah that is only generated by the circumstances, but it is> certainly a full mitzvah, and is counted in the various minyanei hamitzvos. Elly
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The gemara in Megillah explains that Mordechai was a "Yehudi" because
it means anyone who is "modeh baHashem vekofer baavodah zarah".  On
that basis not only can all Bnei Yisrael be called Yehudim, but so
can any Ben Noach who accepts the truth of the Torah and keeps the 7
mitzvot.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Eli Turkel wrote:
> <<> In the days of cheap grapes, it used to be considered 3 years to the
>> first commercial crop.  That is to say, you'd plant a dormant bench
>> graft in the winter, it would bud and grow up a line the first year,
>> during which you would top>>

> This assumes that the vineyard starts with a graft. Is there any
> discussion of how
> plants grew again after the flood? Did Noah take seeds on board or
> grafts or something else?
> Chumash only discusses animal life and not plant life


IIRC it says that he took "yichurim", which I take to mean cuttings.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:57:02 EDT, T613K@aol.com wrote:
>Also, all the other months seem to be named after Babylonian gods,  
>powers, forces or whatever -- why would this month alone have a name 
>that is only a number?  Of course in the Torah ALL the months are 
>identified only  by number (plus sometimes an additional identifying 
>season, e.g., chodesh he'aviv.)  But if we are borrowing names from 
>other cultures, why would we  take just this one month from the 
>Akkadians and give it a number instead of a name?

It's a reasonable question: why did the Babylonians do it that way? 
But it's a fact.  The names of the months in Babylonia were:

Nisanu
Ayaru
Simanu
Du'uzu
Abu
Ululu
Tashritu
Arahsamna
Kislimu
Tebetu
Shabatu
Adaru

Some of these names are Akkadian, but some are Hurrian, and some may
be partially Sumerian.  Simanu is Sivan and Kislimu is Kislev.  Those
are other examples of the m/w metathesis in the late dialect of
Akkadian they spoke in Babylon in the time of Nebuchadnezzar.

In fact, we don't really know for sure that they pronounced the names
that way.  It may be that they said Marahsawna.  But it's transcribed
as Arahsamna because that's how it would have been read in older
times.

We know that Babylonian inscriptions name the son of Nebuchadnezzar
who succeeded him Amel Marduk.  We have it as Ewil-Merodach.  To me,
that indicates that the name was actually pronounced Awel Marduk, and
not Amel, despite the way in which it was written in Babylonian
inscriptions.

But asking why the 8th month is the only one called by its number is
like asking why September, October, November and December weren't
changed when the two months preceding them were (to July and August,
after Julius and Augustus Caesar).  Maybe if the Babylonians had
lasted longer, they would have gotten around to renaming the month.

This page has listings of month names found in various periods and
places in the ancient world:

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/tintirbabylon/caledarintro.html

Lisa
--
The Book of Esther in the Light of History, now available at:
http://www.lulu.com/starways/

Images from a Twisted Mind at http://www.cafepress.com/starways/

Look at Yaaleh veYavo. We use chag hamatzos, yom teru'ah, biblical names
for the Yamim Tovim.

And so, I would think the proper precedent for Shemini Atzeres is from
the end of Parashas Pinachas: Uvayom hashemini, atzeres tihyeh lakhem.
(Comma is representing a zaqeif.) And that would argue for not lumping
"shemini" and "atzeres" into the same phrase.

But the whole question of why Sepharadim don't use Pesach and RH still
intrigues me. As I said, it sheds light on the whole issue of davening
in leshon chazal - because here we clearly are speaking in leshon
Tanakh.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
micha@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 01:35:20PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: In general were there any people in EY before the dispersion?

Avraham got there 23 years later, and Malkitzedeq had already set up
shop, and the land was divided into competing kingdoms.

Ashur (the person) didn't participate in the migdal. Neither did
Sheim/Malkitzedeq nor Eiver. Nor, presumably, their students. It
would seem not every human being went to Shinar. Perhaps nations sent
representatives, in which case we are assuming nations already existed,
perhaps we need to invoke rubo kekulo to understand the pasuq. But given
that there is a known list of non-participants, there is no reason to
assert EY was empty at the time.

: 3. The usual question of secular records that indicate dynasties older
: than 3800 years old some in the middle east and some far away.

I'm loathe to go back to science-n-Torah. I don't know what I haven't
written on this numerous times before. However, those same records
also record a flood. So, there is /something/ up...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
micha@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 01:35:20PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: In general were there any people in EY before the dispersion?

Avraham got there 23 years later, and Malkitzedeq had already set up
shop, and the land was divided into competing kingdoms.

Ashur (the person) didn't participate in the migdal. Neither did
Sheim/Malkitzedeq nor Eiver. Nor, presumably, their students. It
would seem not every human being went to Shinar. Perhaps nations sent
representatives, in which case we are assuming nations already existed,
perhaps we need to invoke rubo kekulo to understand the pasuq. But given
that there is a known list of non-participants, there is no reason to
assert EY was empty at the time.

: 3. The usual question of secular records that indicate dynasties older
: than 3800 years old some in the middle east and some far away.

I'm loathe to go back to science-n-Torah. I don't know what I haven't
written on this numerous times before. However, those same records
also record a flood. So, there is /something/ up...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
micha@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 04:51:20PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: > Except that it's difficult to remember every one of the month's
: > transactions. I find it more useful to maintain a cheshbon nightly.
: > It provides good excercise in learning how to watch myself, seeing
: > how I actually respond and make decisions rather than how I like
: > to think I do. Which in turn makes more "room" between stimulous and
: > response besha'as ma'aseh to think about what I'm doing and make better
: > decisions. (Not that I necessarily /use/ that opportunity.)
: >
: > OTOH, I find the idea of spending time on YKQ reviewing it to be
: > compelling. Thanks.
: 
: Maybe this is a a parrellel to sarei alafim, sarie meei'os, sarei Hamishim,
: sarei assoros in taht there is a hierarchy... IOW we can audit ourselves
: nightly, weekly, monthly, and annually.   They all have their places and
: levels...

More people would have to actually try keeping a nightly cheshbon hanefesh
before we could turn that "maybe" into a known.

Given how powerful of a tool it is to know where you really stand
and which way you're going, I find it frustrating that ChN lacks the
popularity of other spiritual practices popularized by even later
acharonim. E.g. saying Nishmas outside the context of Shacharis, Pereq
Shirah, roite bindelakh (which requires relying on a significant kulah
in safeiq AZ), etc... No mysticism required -- it works for pretty
self-evident reasons.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
micha@aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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