Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 216

Sun, 07 Oct 2007

• 1. Re: Shmini Atzeret - why Sukkah YES and Lulav NO? (T613K@aol.com)
• 2. mechitza [was: heter mechira produce] (Gershon Dubin)
• 3. Re: mechitza [was: heter mechira produce] (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: How much Conformity to local Nusach/Mihag is required for Shatz and for the (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. Re: How much Conformity to local Nusach/Mihag is required for Shatz and for the (Ken Bloom)
• 6. Re: How much Conformity to local Nusach/Mihag is required for Shatz and for the (Ken Bloom)
• 7. Re: How much Conformity to local Nusach/Mihag is required for Shatz and for the Private Worshiper? (Michael Poppers)
• 8. Bereshis "Begin With A Blessing" (R Wolberg)

 
 

R' Richard Wolpoe asked:
> Why do we sit in the Sukkah in the  Golah on Sukkot but do
> not take the Lulav etc. on Shmini Atzeret? This  question
> has bothered me since I was a kid


 
R' Akiva Miller replied:




>>Shmini Atzeres in chu"l is safek Chol Hamoed. Sukkah is  d'Oraisa on Chol 
HaMoed, so we go safek l'chumra on Shmini Atzeres. Keep in mind  that on Shmini 
Ateres, we only go to the Sukkah for things which are chiyuvim on  Chol 
Hamoed, i.e., seudas keva (which includes large mezonos  snacks).<<


>>>>>
My husband has a simpler answer.  We don't do last-day-chol-hamoed  things 
that would openly contradict Shmini Atzeres -- e.g., lulav and  esrog.  But 
sitting in the sukka is OK because people might go outside to  eat in a in a shady 
booth even if it wasn't any kind of holiday.
 


--Toby  Katz
=============



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071006/0caf3389/attachment-0001.htm 

From: T613K@aol.com

<<Mechitza is only a "minhag"?  In Europe they didn't have mechitzos in 
shul?  
Men and women sat together?  Or they sat separately but with no  physical

separation?>>

Much more likely that women never even showed up in shul;  those few who
did
were probably in a separate room.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071006/c65f2840/attachment-0001.html 

 
 
In a message dated 10/7/2007 12:40:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
gershon.dubin@juno.com writes:

From: _T613K@aol.com_ (mailto:T613K@aol.com)  
<<<Mechitza is only a  "minhag"?  In  Europe they didn't have mechitzos in  
shul?   
Men and women sat  together?  Or they sat separately  but with no  physical   
separation?>>> 
>>Much more likely that  women never even showed up in shul....<< 

Gershon
_gershon.dubin@juno.com_ (mailto:gershon.dubin@juno.com) 



>>>>>
If so, then you can hardly call mechitzos a "new minhag" as if we have  
become so much more fanatic and farfrumt than we were in the good old  days in der 
alter heim.  Building shuls with mechitzos so as to accomodate  female 
worshippers seems, if anything, pretty liberal and relaxed compared to  the option of 
not letting them in the building.
 

--Toby  Katz
=============



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071007/041ca467/attachment-0001.htm 

 
 
Re: How much Conformity to local Nusach/Mihag is required for Shatz and for  
the Private Worshiper?



From: R' Ken Bloom:

>>R' Ovadia does not allow a sepharadi  to serve as the shaliach tzibbur
at an ashkenazi shul, because l'chatchilah a  sepharadi should not daven
nusach ashkenaz because the sepharadi nusach is  kabbalistically
superior. <<
 
>>>>>
This reminds me of a similar shailah I've heard asked on more than one  
occasion:  Is a person allowed to change his nusach from Nusach Ashkenaz to  Nusach 
Sefard (chassidish) or vice versa?
 
Lubavitchers posken that you can change from Nusach Ashkenaz to Nusach Ari  
(but not vice versa) because Nusach Ari is kabbalistically superior.  You  can 
go up in nusach but not go down.
 
Litvaks posken that you can change from Nusach Sfard to Nusach Ashkenaz  (but 
not vice versa) because Nusach Ashkenaz was the original, true nusach from  
which the chassidim deviated, so you would just be going back to the nusach of  
your greatgrandfather, which is always preferable.




--Toby  Katz
=============



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071007/59afa9e1/attachment-0001.html 

On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 02:38:34 EDT
T613K@aol.com wrote:

> From: R' Ken Bloom:
> 
> >>R' Ovadia does not allow a sepharadi  to serve as the shaliach
> >>tzibbur
> at an ashkenazi shul, because l'chatchilah a  sepharadi should not
> daven nusach ashkenaz because the sepharadi nusach is  kabbalistically
> superior. <<
>  
> >>>>>
> This reminds me of a similar shailah I've heard asked on more than
> one occasion:  Is a person allowed to change his nusach from Nusach
> Ashkenaz to  Nusach Sefard (chassidish) or vice versa?
>  
> Lubavitchers posken that you can change from Nusach Ashkenaz to
> Nusach Ari (but not vice versa) because Nusach Ari is kabbalistically
> superior.  You  can go up in nusach but not go down.

And ROY (YY 101 -- sounds like I should just post the whole chapter)
says the same thing about the nusach of the spharadim, basing himself
on the HIDA.

> Litvaks posken that you can change from Nusach Sfard to Nusach
> Ashkenaz  (but not vice versa) because Nusach Ashkenaz was the
> original, true nusach from which the chassidim deviated, so you would
> just be going back to the nusach of your greatgrandfather, which is
> always preferable.

Presumably, one cannot do this if they are actually sepharadi, davening
in the nusach of the sepharadim.

--Ken


-- 
Ken Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071007/0f0c1884/attachment-0002.pgp 

On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 02:38:34 EDT
T613K@aol.com wrote:

> From: R' Ken Bloom:
> 
> >>R' Ovadia does not allow a sepharadi  to serve as the shaliach
> >>tzibbur
> at an ashkenazi shul, because l'chatchilah a  sepharadi should not
> daven nusach ashkenaz because the sepharadi nusach is  kabbalistically
> superior. <<
>  
> >>>>>
> This reminds me of a similar shailah I've heard asked on more than
> one occasion:  Is a person allowed to change his nusach from Nusach
> Ashkenaz to  Nusach Sefard (chassidish) or vice versa?
>  
> Lubavitchers posken that you can change from Nusach Ashkenaz to
> Nusach Ari (but not vice versa) because Nusach Ari is kabbalistically
> superior.  You  can go up in nusach but not go down.

And ROY (YY 101 -- sounds like I should just post the whole chapter)
says the same thing about the nusach of the spharadim, basing himself
on the HIDA.

> Litvaks posken that you can change from Nusach Sfard to Nusach
> Ashkenaz  (but not vice versa) because Nusach Ashkenaz was the
> original, true nusach from which the chassidim deviated, so you would
> just be going back to the nusach of your greatgrandfather, which is
> always preferable.

Presumably, one cannot do this if they are actually sepharadi, davening
in the nusach of the sepharadim.

--Ken


-- 
Ken Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071007/0f0c1884/attachment-0003.pgp 

In Avodah Digest V23#215, RRW responded to RSHM:
> how LITERALLY do we take this prvaite preparation?  If none of the above
4 added  what's the harm doing one's Minhag Avos instead of Minhag hamakom
[since after all he is not literally prepdaring himself word for
word anyway? <
To answer RRW generally, there is a difference between changing nusach (not
permitted according to RMF, and my personal position re the parameters of
shlichus during our private dialogue) and adding to the nusach (e.g.
prayers for someone's r'fuah shleimah in "Shma koleinu").  To use me as an
example: I grew up w/ different girsaos w/in "Atah chonein" and
"V'lamalshinim" (weekday)/"v'yanuchu" vs. "v'yism'chu" (Shabbos/YT) -- if
I'm the SHaTZ, my private Amidah should reflect the nusach of the tzibbur
for whom I'm the shaliach to ensure that I properly represent the tzibbur
during the public Amidah. (Tangentially, I feel that the shaliach should
faithfully represent the tzibbur and its nusach even during non-public
aspects of the nusach -- as an example, RRW and I were privately discussing
whether a SHaTZ should say all of "Brich Shmei," not just the last line(s)
that is/are sung aloud, when the shaliach for a tzibbur which has BSh as
part of its minhag regardless of his personal belief that BSh shouldn't be
said in a public venue -- but I have no sources for such a feeling other
than those which discuss the parameters of shlichus rather than minhag
hamaqom/"lo sisgod'du.")

(Re this thread, I would like to explore ROY's apparent position [if I
understood RKB correctly and he quoted ROY fully] that a "superior nusach"
overrides the established nusach/minhag of a maqom.  Was he assuming a shul
which didn't have a minhag hamaqom; does he discount or not agree that "lo
sisgod'du" mandates against creating agudos by publicly splitting from
minhag hamaqom; or is something else going on?  Thanks.)

Shavua Tov/Gut Voch and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071007/cd6cfa06/attachment-0001.htm 

The Midrash relates that the Torah begins with the letter bet, rather than
with the letter alef, because bet connotes beracha, blessing, while alef
connotes arirah, curse.  The HaKodosh, Baruch Hu, said, "I will begin with a
bet, with an expression of blessing.  May it be that the creation will be
able to endure."  Another Kabbalistic Midrash says that the Torah begins
with the letter Bet because it looks like a box open only towards the front,
teaching us to not ask about what comes before, or beyond, or beneath this
creation.

 

Alternatively: The bet refers to the two [divisions of the] Torah, the
Written Torah and the Oral Torah, to teach you that the world was created in
the merit of the Torah and those who study it.

 

The gematria of bereishit (913) is equal to that of batorah yatzar, "He
formed [it] with the Torah."  It was for the sake of the Torah, which is
called the beginning (Mishlei 8:22), that the world was created.

 

Alternatively: The gematria of bereishit (913) is equal to that of yisrael
bachar baamim, "He chose Yisrael among the nations" and to that of taryag
yatzar, "He formed 613," indicating that He created the world for the sake
of Yisrael, that they be enabled to observe the 613 Mitzvot.  It is because
of those who observe the Torah that the world stands.  

 

In the first verse of Bereishit there are seven words, corresponding to the
seven days of the week, the seven years of the a shemittah cycle, the seven
shemittah cycles of a yovel cycle, the seven heavens, the seven lands, the
seven seas , the seven servants.  Corresponding to these, King David said,
"Seven times a day I have praised you" (Tehillim 119:164)

 

And because of this correspondence, the Sages ordained that the refrain in
the Kaddish - Y'hei shmei rabba m'vorach l'olam ul'almei almaya.  May His
great Name be blessed forever and ever - contains seven words, and be
recited seven times each day.  Moreover, in this first verse of the Torah
there are twenty-eight letters, as there are in the refrain "May His great
Name..." 

 

As a parallel, King Shlomo composed seven verses - beginning with "a time to
be born" and ending with "a time for peace" (Kohelet 3:2-8) - that speak of
twenty-eight "times" [which correspond to the twenty-eight different time
periods each week].  For there are four "times" in each full day-night
period: From dawn to noon is one time; from noon to dusk is a second time;
from dusk to midnight is a third time; and from midnight to dawn is a fourth
time. And so in seven days there are twenty-eight time periods.  (I'm also
reminded of many medicines that one is supposed to take four times a day).

 

Remarkably also, seven words and twenty-eight letters are also contained in
the verse "G-d spoke all these statements, saying" (Shemot 20:1), which
introduces the Ten Commandments.  This [correspondence of letters and words
between the refrain of the Kaddish and the verse that introduce Creation and
the Ten Commandments] alludes to our Sages' statement, "Whoever answers with
all of his strength (koach)...Amen. Y'hei shmei rabba m'vorach l'olam
ul'almei almaya.  May His great Name be blessed forever and ever... becomes
a partner with the Holy One, Blessed be He, in the work of Creation."  -Baal
HaTurim

 

 Richard Wolberg

 

 

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071007/c14306a1/attachment.html 

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 23, Issue 216
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."