Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 210

Mon, 01 Oct 2007

• 1. Re: Kevius Seudah on PHBK for Sukkah (Richard Wolpoe)
• 2. COMPLETION (R Wolberg)
• 3. Re: Rav Yaakov Emden & Christianity (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 4. Re: Shir HaMaalos, Maaseh Elokaynu/Enosh, L'Dovid Mizmor, Tekios B'Emtzo Kaddish (Zev Sero)
• 5. Tea before Shacharis (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 6. Re: Ledovid in German Siddurim (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 7. Re: heter mechira produce (Goldmeier)
• 8. Re: Shir HaMaalos, Maaseh Elokaynu/Enosh, L'Dovid Mizmor, Tekios B'Emtzo Kaddish (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 9. Re: lifnei iver/kanaus (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 10. Re: Shir HaMaalos, Maaseh Elokaynu/Enosh, L'Dovid Mizmor, Tekios B'Emtzo Kaddish (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 11. Re: Shir HaMaalos, Maaseh Elokaynu/Enosh, L'Dovid (D&E-H Bannett)
• 12. Re: heter mechira produce (Richard Wolpoe)
• 13. Re: Shir HaMaalos, Maaseh Elokaynu/Enosh, L'Dovid Mizmor, Tekios B'Emtzo Kaddish (Richard Wolpoe)

On 9/30/07, kennethgmiller@juno.com <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
> Regarding Pas Habaah B'Kisnin (PHBK) in the sukkah, Mishneh Brurah 639:16
> says: "... If he was not kovea seudah, but merely ate more than a kebeitzah,
> there are varying opinions among the acharonim whether he needs to say
> Leshev Basukkah... In order to avoid this safek bracha l'vatalah, he should
> see to it that he doesn't leave immediately after eating, but rather
> sit/stay [lasheves] there for some time [zman mah], and when he says the
> Leshev Basukkah, he should have in mind to cover both the eating and the
> sitting [yeshiva] after it."
..
> So here's my question: Suppose someone would want to grab a quick sandwich
> made of more than a kebaytza of pas, and some sort of filling. His plan is
> to wash netilas yadayim in the house, enter the sukkah, say the proper
> bracho(s), eat the sandwich, say birkas hamazon, and leave immediately. It
> seems to me that there is no more kevius here than in the MB's case. Do any
> poskim discuss whether or not to say Leshev Basukkah in such a case?

I have been bothered my this  2 standards of PHBK for several years
1 for Sukkah and 1 for Hamotzi. I have found it to be inconsistent. I
believed I even blogged on this.

I spoke to Rav Yaakov Posen [Author Kitzur Hilchos Shabbos] and he agreed
with the proposition that there are 2 criteria

I spoke to Rabbi Chait [sp?] of Far Rockaway during sahbbos Shuva on
this very matter. he gave me an in-depth explanation that finally made
sense to me

I also spoke to Rabbi Dr. E. kanarfogel the other day on this. He also
made a Chilkuk somewhat like Rav Posen but actualyl elaborated on waht
the chiluk was.

I am planning to post this in a series on intriguing MB's on the Nishma
blog. I actually spoke on thisduring the summer but I am stil researching
the matter.

My big ta'anah on the MB is that he did nto spell this out befeirush
that there are TWO criteria nd the dynamics and parameters of how/why
they differ. Aftera ll if you are "berura" you don't leave this to
lamdus of rabbanim, you spell it out for the average ba'al habayis so
that it is really a clear distincion.

I do not have the time right now to go into detail about Rabbi Chait's
answer, but it involves several sources I have not seen - viz a Rambam
and a Tosafos

Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/

Though we have four species, we have seven elements: Lulav, esrog, three
hadassim, and two aravos, making a grand total of seven items.  

Seven are the days of Succos (d'oraiso) and also seven is the number of
completion. Thus, we have total completion through the seven items and the
waving in all directions.

 

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There is a major difference. Rambam holds that Christianity is idolatry

*Rambam(Commentary to Avoda Zara 1:3):* Know that this Christian nation, 
which advocates the messianic claim in all their various sects, all of 
them are idolaters. On all their various festivals it is forbidden for 
us to deal with them. And all Torah restrictions pertaining to idolaters 
pertain to them. . . . We deal with them as we would deal with any 
idolaters on their festival. (commentary on Mishnah, Avodah Zarah 1.3)

*Rambam (Hilchos  Avoda  Zara 9:4): *Christians are idolators and Sunday 
is their religious day. Therefore it is prohibited to do business with 
them in Israel on Thursday and Firday every single week of the year and 
it is not necessary to even mention that it is prohibited on Sunday 
itself everywhere. And thus we conduct ouselves with them on every one 
of their holy days.


 while Rav Yaakov Emden says they have no prohibition of shituf except 
in Israel.

R' Emden seems more  the view of Kuzari:  

*Kuzari(4:23):? *The law of Moses changes all religions that come after 
it to be closer to the truth even though outwardly it might appear as if 
these religions are distancing themselves from Judaism. These derivative 
religions are in fact merely preparations and introductions to the 
expected Moshiach. Moshiach is the fruition of the process. At the end  
of time with their acknowledgment of G?d they too will become His fruit 
and all of mankind will constitute one tree. At that time they will 
revere the source religion which they had previously despised as we have 
discussed concerning Yeshaya (52:13), ?Behold My servant prospers.?


Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2007 at 01:26:13AM -0400, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
> : I just came across an interesting article written 30 years ago by Blu 
> : Greenberg - Judaism 27:3 1978 p351-363...
> : page 358 "In his commentary Eitz Avos (40b-41a) on Pirkei Avot (4:11), 
> : Emden describes Christianity as a "religion in the service of God," a 
> : religion which God sees as good and, therefore, He sustains it..."
> :         Emden continues: these two families, Christianity and 
> : Mohammedanism, which God selected as vehicles to bring faith into the 
> : world, were never brought under the yoke of mitzvot of the Torah...
>
> Shitas haRambam, no?
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -mi
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>   

RallisW@aol.com wrote:

> 2) Where did the paragraphs of Maaseh Enosh enter into the Piyut of 
> Maaseh Elokaynu? In the Roedelheim Machzor they don't appear.

The original piyut has a verse of "maaseh enosh" after *each* verse
of "maaseh Elokenu", just like the piyut "asher ematecha/veratzita
shevach".


> 4) Isn't blowing Tekios during the Kaddish Sholeim following Musaf RH a 
> hefsek? Couldn't they be blown afterwards?

Kaddish itself is already over by that point; where do we see that
there's a problem with interrupting between it and the customary
additions?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

In the thread titled "Shofar and guf naki", R' Micha Berger listed the tefilos which he says at home before minyan, and added:
> At this point I have my cup of tea and head off to shul.

I'd like to note what I saw in the Halichos Shlomo (psakim of RSZAuerbach) Chelek "Tefilah" 2:2:

"One who feels a need to drink before davening may drink coffee with milk and sugar, but it is probably best [ach yitachen shenachon] to say a Davar Bakasha beforehand, such as Shema Hashem V'Chaneni etc."

The notes there add that when RSZA personally did this, his choice was to say the psukim from "Aylecha Hashem Ekra..." to "...Hashem Heyeh Ozer Li." (Tehillim 30:9-11)

I found it very curious that this section does NOT specify what brachos, if any, he would recommend prior to the coffee (though I presume one would have to say Birkas Hatorah in order to say those psukim). I would imagine that the long Yehi Ratzon which is connected to Hamaavir Sheina would satisfy RSZA's requirement to say a Bakasha, which leads me to conclude that he said these brachos at shul, *after* his coffee.

Akiva Miller

R' Rich Wolpoe wrote:
> When I did shul calendars, I would use an OLD calendar as
> a template and then update it with the new dates. Almost
> invariably, I would leave ONE old piece of info that was
> in error

Ditto. I currently do my shul's yearly calendar. I was very careful and successfully labeled Nov 4 of this year as "Eastern Standard Time", but I goofed on the zmanim for the Shabbos of Nov 2-3. This year that Shabbos is still on Daylight Time, but I had copied it from another year, in which it was already Standard Time.

And he concluded:
> Printers of Siddurim make simliar mistakes.

I have a "First Edition, First Impression, June 1991" of ArtScroll's "Complete Tishah B'Av Service", Nusach Ashkenaz. When I got it, I phoned its editor, Rabbi Avie Gold to ask why he omitted Mizmor L'Sodah. He apologized, explaining that they simply copied Psukei D'Zimrah from the machzor for Chol Hamoed Pesach, and didn't notice the error until it was too late. Exactly like RRW is saying.

Akiva Miller

while it keeps getting mentioned in the discussion that shmitta is only 
d'rabanan anyway (and therefore there is room to be meikil), I have not 
heard any Rav use that as a reason to be meikil. I have heard many 
shiurim on shmitta issues leading up to shmitta and asked a number of 
shailos and read books, yet that "svara" has never been mentioned by a 
Rav. I only hear it from laymen (no insult intended - I have said it 
myself in discussion as well and am more of a layman than anyone else on 
Avodah!).

Does anyone know if that svara really applies and is used in piskei 
halacha on shmitta issues? And if not (as I think is the case), why not? 
The fact is it is d'rabbanan, so why do we treat it so seriously?

Kol tuv
Rafi

---------
Goldmeier
goldmeier@012.net.il

http://torahthoughts.blogspot.com
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com
http://parshaquestions.blogspot.com
http://yomtovthoughts.blogspot.com

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:51:22 EDT
RallisW@aol.com wrote:

> Shalom All,

> 2) Where did the paragraphs of Maaseh Enosh enter into the Piyut of Maaseh  
> Elokaynu? In the Roedelheim Machzor they don't appear.

Apparently [0] , the original version contrasted each Ma'aseh Elokeinu
paragraph with a Ma'aseh Enosh paragraph.  Most of the Ma'ase Enosh's
were subsequently removed; the standard Mahazorim contain only one.  I
assume the Roedelheim simply omitted all of them.

> 3) The recital of L'Dovid Mizmor posuk by posuk on the evening of RH and  YK, 
> how come?

See Mateh Efraim 619:18 and Elef La'magen there.

[0] See Weingarten's Mahazor Ha'meforush

> Thank you in advance!

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007 01:10:22 -0400
"Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com> wrote:

> Captains that were heavy-handed with whipping could trigger a mutiny, e.g.
> Bligh.

Brittania ruled the waves for centuries, during which time her officers
were quite liberal with the lash [0]; whether her success was due to or
in spite of its application is an interesting question.

[0] http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=112
(about the misattributed quote about the three elements of British
naval tradition)

> RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

R' RallisW:
>Just some issues that have bothered me for the past few Yomim Noroim.
?
>1) Isn't saying Shir HaMaalos MiMamakim a hefsek between Yishtabach and
Borchu?

Minhag Lakewood (or at least BMG) is to say Shir HaMaalos later on.
?
<SNIP>
>4) Isn't blowing Tekios during the Kaddish Sholeim following Musaf RH a
hefsek? Couldn't they be blown afterwards?
?
In general, something that is supposed to be somewhere is not a Hefsek in
that context (for example, Hashem Sefasai Tiftach is not a Hefsek between
Ge'ulah and Tefillah). Thus, since there are supposed to be Tekios during
that Kaddish Shaleim they are not a Hefsek. In a different Kaddish, they may
well be. 

However, I am not sure your premise is correct. Is there a concept of Hefsek
where there are no Berachos involved? I can't think of any offhand. The
singing during Duchening is not a Hefsek in the Pasuk, because there is no
Din of Hefsek. (It is not a Hefsek in the berachah because the Mitzvah was
already started - similar to Shama Teisha Kolos B'yom.) The singing in
Kedusha of Shacharis and Mussaf is not a Hefsek in the Kedushah (even though
it often more than K'dei Ligmor Es Kulah) because there is no Din Hefsek,
and it isn't a Hefsek in the Chazaras Hashatz (where there _is_ a Din of
Hefsek) because it is not K'dei Ligmor the whole Chazaras Hashatz. And so on
and so forth...

KT and GYT,
MYG 

Re:  1) Isn't saying Shir HaMaalos MiMamakim a hefsek 
between Yishtabach and
Borchu?

And the Rambam and other oldies mention saying Az Yashir or 
ha'azinu between yishtabach and bar'khu.  After we 
volunteered to say the sh'vachim of p'sukei d'zimra as 
preparation for prayer, anything after them that disturbed 
the mood we just attempted to build up becomes a 
non-permitted hefsek.  Does mima'amakim disturb? If so, 
don't say it. Does it improve the mood build-up? Say it.

2) Where did the paragraphs of Maaseh Enosh enter into the 
Piyut of Maaseh
Elokaynu? In the Roedelheim Machzor they don't appear.

Originally, a ma'aseh enosh stanza followed every ma'aseh 
Elokenu stanza. Later on they were omitted except for a 
single one before the end. See R' D. Goldschmidt machzorim 
for the complete piyyut.

4) Isn't blowing Tekios during the Kaddish Sholeim following 
Musaf RH a
hefsek? Couldn't they be blown afterwards?

No reason why they can't be blown afterwards. The extra 
tekiyot added to make a total of 100 are added at the end of 
davening. The kaddish after musaf was the end of davening. 
D'amiran b'alma was the end of kaddish.  The additions made 
after kaddish, requests for acceptance of our prayers and 
twice for peace, once in Aramaic and once in Hebrew, later 
became so usual that they are now considered as part of 
kaddish. So one gets a feeling that it is not the end. So 
what?
In my shul, where we don't blow in silent amida, we blow 30 
at titkabal and 10 after aleinu. And at the end of Y"K we 
blow before titkabal and even sing before saying titkabal. 
Again, so what?


Hag Sameach and k"t,

David

On 10/1/07, Goldmeier <goldmeier@012.net.il> wrote:
>
> while it keeps getting mentioned in the discussion that shmitta is only
> d'rabanan anyway (and therefore there is room to be meikil), I have not
> heard any Rav use that as a reason to be meikil. I have heard many
> shiurim on shmitta issues leading up to shmitta and asked a number of
> shailos and read books, yet that "svara" has never been mentioned by a
> Rav. I only hear it from laymen (no insult intended - I have said it
> myself in discussion as well and am more of a layman than anyone else on
> Avodah!).
>
> Does anyone know if that svara really applies and is used in piskei
> halacha on shmitta issues? And if not (as I think is the case), why not?
> The fact is it is d'rabbanan, so why do we treat it so seriously?
>
> Kol tuv
> Rafi
>

See The Gmara in Shabbos at the end of the 2nd  perek re: t2 kinds of Eruvin
Techumin and hatzeiros are qualitatively different
Techumin has a semach mi'doraisso
Hatzeiros does not.

Extrapolate to the following 'derabbnanans"

   1. Marror bizman hazeh
   2. Sefiras Ha'omer according to many poskim
   3. shmitta bizmahn hazeh

What have they in common?  They are essential d'orrasio's that have been
reduced to derbannan's


   1. Marror - lack of Korban Pesach
   2. Sefiras Ha'omer - lack of ketziras ha-omer
   3. Shmitta - lack of criteria for yoveil

I would posit the hypothesis that an essential d'orraiso that has been
reduced to Derabbana status is stronger than a simple  "pure" Derabbanan.

Other "strong" derabbanans include:

   1. YT sheini shel galiyus
   2. According to some the gzeiros on Bishul - shehiya, hazarr, and
   Hatmanas -s s'feikam lechumra for that reason.   The g'zeriso are  construed
   as  d'orraisso derivitaves. [See S. Edier's  book on Hilchos Shabbas]

I am not sure if the poskim are consious of this conecton, or just aware
that the trend with shmitta has been to be machmir so they are perpetuating
a pre-existing approach.  THAT approach might have been due to these
reasons.

Since I know extremly little re: Shemitta itself, I am only guessing.  OTOH,
regarding the aforementioned inyanim there is a lot of material
demonstrating this  phenomenon.


-- 
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On 9/30/07, RallisW@aol.com <RallisW@aol.com> wrote:
>
>  Shalom All,
>
> Just some issues that have bothered me for the past few Yomim Noroim.
>
> 1) Isn't saying Shir HaMaalos MiMamakim a hefsek between Yishtabach and
> Borchu?
>

YES. But a hefsek is OK to anounce a request for a Beis Din to convene.
IOW, that is the time used to plead one's case for justice in front of the
congregation. That is porbably the opening [pesach] used to permit this.
Personally, the Yekkes don't do it and I feel better about skipping them
myself.

2) Where did the paragraphs of Maaseh Enosh enter into the Piyut of Maaseh
> Elokaynu? In the Roedelheim Machzor they don't appear.
>

The original piyyut alternated between Ma'aseh Elokeinu and Mas'seh Enosh
and was cut down.  Roedelheim omitted "enosh" 100% and other minhaggim kept
2 strophes before the last Ma'aseh Elokeinu   I thnk Birnbaum discusses this
a bit, maybe Artscroll,  too.

3) The recital of L'Dovid Mizmor posuk by posuk on the evening of RH and YK,
> how come?
>
> 4) Isn't blowing Tekios during the Kaddish Sholeim following Musaf RH a
> hefsek? Couldn't they be blown afterwards?
>
> Thank you in advance!
>
> The last 2 area alein to the German Minhag. I don't know how they started.
FWIW #3 is according to [ at least 1 opninion in] Artrscroll a prayer for
parnassah.



-- 
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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