Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 209

Mon, 01 Oct 2007

• 1. Re: Shofar and guf naki (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Selichos - Especially before Midnight (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Lulov Pockets (Micha Berger)
• 4. Shir HaMaalos, Maaseh Elokaynu/Enosh, L'Dovid Mizmor, Tekios B'Emtzo Kaddish (RallisW@aol.com)
• 5. Ko Kayli, Hoshanos, and HaShem HaShem on Yom Kippur (Gershon Dubin)
• 6. Re: [Areivim] alternative therapies (Zev Sero)
• 7. heter mechira produce (SBA)
• 8. Re: Lulov Pockets (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Lulov Pockets (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Lulov Pockets (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Shofar and guf naki (Richard Wolpoe)
• 12. Re: lifnei iver/kanaus (Richard Wolpoe)
• 13. Ledovid in German Siddurim (Minden)
• 14. Re: Kevius Seudah on PHBK for Sukkah (Harry Maryles)

There is a question of how many birkhos haTorah one makes in the
morning. Is veHaarev Na the start of a new berakhah, one that lacks a
pesikhah because it's semuchh lechaverta? Or is it the body of "la'asoq
bedivrei Torah", which in turn would be a berakhah arukhah.

There seems to be a leshitasam between this and the role of the learning
done immediately after. The Baal haMaor and Rabbeinu Yonah hold three
berakhos and therefore point to three kinds of learning that follow it:
the miqra, mishnah and gemara (the beraisa of R Yishmael's 13 middos).

See the RI ben Yaqar, who discusses both sides. His argument in favor of
veHaarev being its one berakhah is the change in tense from avar to
aside and thus from shevach/hodaah to baqashah.

Rabbeinu Tam, OTOH, understands Berakhos 11b as saying that R' Yehudah
spells out "la'asoq bedivrei Torah" and when it says "R' Yochanan mesayeim
bah hakhi" is means a siyum to that very berakhah. he holds that there
is no berakhah hasemukhah lechaverta when the first berakhah is short.
Therefore, veHaarev can't be a new berakhah.

And according to Rabbeinu Tam, after the two berakhos we learn two kinds
of Torah -- TSBK and TSBP -- no need to be careful to have separate
mishnah and gemara.

Birkhos Kohanim and Eilu devarim serve the same role(s), and thus allow
for placing birkhos hashachar before qorbanos.

Since I personally can't keep up with the minyan, I skip the newer
addition and begin at home with:

Asher Yatzar, E-lokai Netzor, Birkhos haTorah - body, soul and mind --
which some rishonim make a point of making a triad. Others see Asher
Yatzar as a necessary prelude, E-lokai Netzor as semukhah to haMapil
the night before, and Birkhos haTorah as standing by itself.

For Qorbanos, I make sure to say the following:
Tamid -- since that ties my tefillah not only to Anshei Kenesses
haGedolah, but puts it in a mesorah that dates back to the Yemei Milu'im
and the first qorban Tamid.
Qetores -- someone convinced me to say this as a segulah when I was
laid off. Now that I have a job, how can I stop?
The pesuqim after Qetores make a good hispa'alus for bitachon
Abayei hava mesadeir -- covers all my bases in case I never get to the
rest of qorbanos
Techinas Rabbi Nechaniah ben haKaneh - "Ana Bekoach", just because its
beauty is obvious enough for my eye

At this point I have my cup of tea and head off to shul. Insert repeated
reminders to the boys to hurry up already.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
micha@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard

On Thu, Sep 20, 2007 at 10:08:19PM -0400, Michael Poppers wrote:
: Talking about prior onlist conversation, you and I have talked about this
: subject, too.  One's personal predilections do not outweigh minhag hamaqom,
: but what one does in private, e.g. washing (however one performs that
: washing) before Qiddush, isn't a "lo sisgod'du" issue even when the vast
: majority of the community does otherwise.

The question was skipping Berikh Shemei when one is not the sha"tz and
no one else would notice.

The parallel would be something I do every Shabbos: Daven nusach Ashkenaz
when saying tefillah belachash, but answering Qedushah with the rest of
the minyan in nusach "Sfard".

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

On Sun, September 30, 2007 1:09 pm, Zev Sero wrote:
: The picture looks just as consistent with a large bundle of hadassim
: and two aravot, held together by a ring, more or less like the current
: L practise, except that the aravot are projecting above the hadassim,
: while L try to hide the aravot behind the hadassim.

Does anyone use a large bundle of hadassim and two aravos?

As noted last time we discussed this coin, Bar Kochva only needed one
hadas and one aravah -- as he would follow shitas Rabbi Aqiva.

I know there are Chernoble descended Chassidim who have fancy baskets
for holding two pairs of aravos and three groups of three hadasim.

And there are qehillos (among Sepharadim, but I do not recall which,
Chabad too, no?) that have many aravos, and lay three hadasim beneath
them -- one on the left, one on the right, and one along the shedra.

Given the lack of a source for such a custom, I still go with the take
that it's a woven basket holding one hadas and one aravah.

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

Shalom All,
 
Just some issues that have bothered me for the past few Yomim Noroim.
 
1) Isn't saying Shir HaMaalos MiMamakim a hefsek between Yishtabach and  
Borchu?
 
2) Where did the paragraphs of Maaseh Enosh enter into the Piyut of Maaseh  
Elokaynu? In the Roedelheim Machzor they don't appear.
 
3) The recital of L'Dovid Mizmor posuk by posuk on the evening of RH and  YK, 
how come?
 
4) Isn't blowing Tekios during the Kaddish Sholeim following Musaf RH a  
hefsek? Couldn't they be blown afterwards?
 
Thank you in advance!



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From: "Saul Guberman" <saulguberman@gmail.com>

<<> Why didn't shuls say HaShem HaShem this Yom Kippur before Krias
HaTorah
> even though it is said or should be said numerous times during
> davening/orenen?
>
 
According to the Rinat Yisrael machzor, this is said on Shabboos YK.>>

Rabbi Nosson Scherman told me that at the time the Artscroll machzor was
being written,
Rav Moshe Feinstein was very insistent that it NOT be said.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

In a message to Areivim, which Newman,Saul Z sent on 1-Aug-2007, but
which didn't make it from kungfu.dreamhost.com [66.33.216.126] to
mail3.zoneedit.com until 28-Sep-2007, he wrote:

> Special Note Three:  Incredibly, even in our day and age, the ugly head 
> of avodah zarah--idolatry--has infiltrated the Jewish community.  In 
> fact, we learned of one bioenergy healer who puts what are apparently 
> innocuous herbs on his patients' backs.  Prior to doing so, he offers 
> the herbs on an altar in another room.

I wonder whether there's any real problem with this  -  it's assur to
benefit from something sacrificed to avodah zarah, and it's possible
that these herbs do indeed fit within the technical definition of that,
but what benefit is the "patient" receiving from them?  It's not as if
they're actually doing him any good.  All they're really doing is
transferring money from his pocket to that of the practitioner.  True,
he *thinks* he's being helped, and therefore goes away feeling good,
and that feeling itself may have an actual healing effect, but is that
attributable to the herbs themselves, or just to the "treatment" in
general, with the herbs merely a prop that can be ignored in our
halachic evaluation?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                      	                          - Clarence Thomas

From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@bezeqint.net>
During a discussion on another list, someone raised the opinion that
(according to him) Chareidim consider eating "Heter Mechira" produce like
eating Tereifot and Neveilot. I can't figure this one out.

When I asked a Rabbi from Machon HaTorah VeHaretz, he gave me source from
Chazon Ish and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach that say that Heter Mechira
produce BeDi'avad are mutar.
>>

Others too have mentioned that RSZA Ok'd people eating HM produce when
staying with those who use it. So I was quite surprised when I recently
received  a copy of the Torah journal Mevakshei Torah which reproduced a
poster from 5760 strongly urging full compliance with the laws of Shemitta
adding:
 ".vehinei kayadua ki lifnei keme'ah shana be'es dochek gadol shel pikuach
nefesh hayu migedolei Yisroel asher hitiru, kehoroas sha'a, lismoch al
hetter mechiras hakarka.

 - ulom barur ki bizmanenu hadavar pashut ubarur shegam hamatirim lo
hischavnu lehattir le'es kazos - ve'ein shum gemiras daas bamechira zu. 

Vehanosen yad lassos "hetter mechirah" - nosen yad laakor hamitzva.

Vedaateinu, daas torah, she'ossur lehistamech al "hetter" zeh - ve'ein
hadovor nitten lechilukei de'os ukehilos, vechol bar Yisroel chayav
beshmiras shemitta kehilchoso.  

Vechol hanosen lehoros lerabbim laakor shemitta al yedei ha"hetter"- gorem
chilul Hashem.."

Amongst the 19 signatories are Rav Elyashiv, R' Steinman, R' Wosner,
RC Kanievsky and Rav Shmuel Auerbach.

A bit strange that RS Auerbach would go against his father's psak?

--
Which reminds me seeing some time ago in RD Kohn's sefer "Ha'okov Lemishor"
(and I may have posted it at the time) showing how Rav Kook's teshuva
allowing the HM was based on a censored Chazal (IIRC) and the later correct
version makes his rayeh irrelevant. (I can't find my copy of the sefer right
now.)

SBA

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, September 30, 2007 1:09 pm, Zev Sero wrote:
> : The picture looks just as consistent with a large bundle of hadassim
> : and two aravot, held together by a ring, more or less like the current
> : L practise, except that the aravot are projecting above the hadassim,
> : while L try to hide the aravot behind the hadassim.
> 
> Does anyone use a large bundle of hadassim and two aravos?

Yes.  L, at least, does.


> As noted last time we discussed this coin, Bar Kochva only needed one
> hadas and one aravah -- as he would follow shitas Rabbi Aqiva.

But that's not what the coin seems to depict.


> And there are qehillos (among Sepharadim, but I do not recall which,
> Chabad too, no?) that have many aravos, and lay three hadasim beneath
> them -- one on the left, one on the right, and one along the shedra.

Which qehillos, specifically?  Certainly not Chabad, which uses davka
two aravos, hidden behind many hadassim.



-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Mon, Oct 01, 2007 at 12:51:46AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
:> As noted last time we discussed this coin, Bar Kochva only needed one
:> hadas and one aravah -- as he would follow shitas Rabbi Aqiva.

: But that's not what the coin seems to depict.

But the idea isn't mine. I got it, complete with the Rabbi Aqiva
connection (only needing one of each) from the Biblical Archeology
Review. But, as happens in oft-repeated debates, who kept a copy of the
source around for the next iteration?

All I could find by Google were copies of a Jm Post article citing our
RAZivotofsky and R Ari Greenspan to this effect.

But it would seem that people who actually saw such coins are okay with
this interpretation of their image.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

Zev Sero wrote:
> Micha Berger wrote:

>> Does anyone use a large bundle of hadassim and two aravos?
> 
> Yes.  L, at least, does.

See, for instance, the pictures here:
http://crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=8409

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On 9/30/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> There is a question of how many birkhos haTorah one makes in the
> morning. Is veHaarev Na the start of a new berakhah, one that lacks a
> pesikhah because it's semuchh lechaverta? Or is it the body of "la'asoq
> bedivrei Torah", which in turn would be a berakhah arukhah.
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -mi


FWIW:
When it comes to an Amein, MB posits it is TWO brachos
But he counts it as 3 for the sake of making 100 brachos a day.



-
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On 9/30/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> In a culture which defines morality in terms of rights, we do not take to
> negative reinforcement the way people have for most of human history.
> We like the carrot, but chafe under the stick. Rather than Shelomo
> haMelekh's rod (as generally understood, not as RSW explains it) causing
> positive change, it sparks rebellion.
>
>
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -mi


The Talmud/SA tells us that we may not hit a child past a certain age [15
iirc] because he might hit you back and you would thereby trangress lifnei
iver...on an issur of misas beis din no less.

Granted, that there are exceptions, neverthless I would posit that corporal
punishment has not worked effectively [as a rule] for about 2,000 years or
more.  Anyone learning "Elu hein Halokin will notice that the way malkus is
practiced it is more about shaming, embarrassing, and stimgatizing, then
about inflicting physical pain.

Captains that were heavy-handed with whipping could trigger a mutiny, e.g.
Bligh.

My favorite Talmudic form of discipline is a dirty look. Apparently Rabbi
Yochanan mastered that technique --smile--

-
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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rabbirichwolpoe wrote:
> Most of the Hineni's and Hinene Muchan's etc. in the Yekkisher siddurim are about kavvanah but are devoid of Kabbalistic references.

The short version is: these innovations spread a bit in 18th-century siddurim through the influence of the Shl"o and others, and were reduced again by Heidenheim.


>  [kavvanah good, Kabbalh Bad --smile--]

Kavvone, Not Kavvones!?


LPhM
http://lipmans.blogspot.com

I asked this to a Talmid Chacham I know and he said the following: The MB 639:15 brings that although a LITTLE BIT MORE than a Kbeitza is definitely chayav in a Suka (as the gemara 26A states explicitly) and therefore certainly nec. a bracha, pas haba'a pkisnin is a dispute as to whether or not it is the same amt. or needs a larger amt, i.e. the amt. that people are usually koveia seuda on, and hence the psak of the MB in 16 to prefer staying afterwards for a little while as well.
   
  HM

"kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
  Regarding Pas Habaah B'Kisnin (PHBK) in the sukkah, Mishneh Brurah 639:16 says: "... If he was not kovea seudah, but merely ate more than a kebeitzah, there are varying opinions among the acharonim whether he needs to say Leshev Basukkah... In order to avoid this safek bracha l'vatalah, he should see to it that he doesn't leave immediately after eating, but rather sit/stay [lasheves] there for some time [zman mah], and when he says the Leshev Basukkah, he should have in mind to cover both the eating and the sitting [yeshiva] after it."

It seems clear to me that the case where this safek exists, according to the MB, is where he DOES exit the sukkah immediately after eating the PHBK. Phrased differently, it seems that if one wants to grab a quick snack of a kebaytza-plus of PHBK, then on the one hand it must be eaten in the sukkah, but on the other hand there's a safek on whether this is enough of a keviyus to justify the bracha.

I am bothered by this apparent chiluk being made between PHBK and Pas Gamur. The shiur for one is "more than a kebaytza of pas", and the shiur for the other is "more than a kebaytza of pas". Why distinguish between different types of pas?

So here's my question: Suppose someone would want to grab a quick sandwich made of more than a kebaytza of pas, and some sort of filling. His plan is to wash netilas yadayim in the house, enter the sukkah, say the proper bracho(s), eat the sandwich, say birkas hamazon, and leave immediately. It seems to me that there is no more kevius here than in the MB's case. Do any poskim discuss whether or not to say Leshev Basukkah in such a case?

Akiva Miller

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