Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 207

Sun, 30 Sep 2007

• 1. heter mechira produce (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 2. Re: Ledovid in German Siddurim (Michael Poppers)
• 3. Re: Ledovid in German Siddurim (Richard Wolpoe)
• 4. Lulov Pockets (RallisW@aol.com)
• 5. Re: Lulov Pockets (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: heter mechira produce (Goldmeier)
• 7. Shemini Atzeres and Simchas Torah (R Wolberg)
• 8. Ko Kayli, Hoshanos, and HaShem HaShem on Yom Kippur (RallisW@aol.com)
• 9. Re: Ko Kayli, Hoshanos, and HaShem HaShem on Yom Kippur (Saul Guberman)
• 10. Fascinating Gematria (R Wolberg)
• 11. Re: heter mechira produce (Russell Levy)
• 12. Re: Ko Kayli, Hoshanos, and HaShem HaShem on Yom Kippur (Richard Wolpoe)
• 13. Re: Lulov Pockets (Richard Wolpoe)

During a discussion on another list, someone raised the opinion that 
(according to him) Chareidim consider eating "Heter Mechira" produce like 
eating Tereifot and Neveilot.

I can't figure this one out.

When I asked a Rabbi from Machon HaTorah VeHaretz, he gave me source from 
Chazon Ish and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach that say that Heter Mechira 
produce BeDi'avad are mutar.

I also recall a lecture many years ago, in which the basic issue with regard 
to Heter Mechira was whether or not Shmitta was D'Oraita or DeRabanan in our 
times.  Besides the question of Yovel, the issue was whether the Medina is a 
Malchut, in a halachic sense, which would, if the answer was positive, 
influence the balance of matter so that shmitta would be D'Oraita.

And yet, AFAIK, the majority consider Shmitta in our time D'Rabbanan.

I realize that politics influences things -- but I want to know from a 
straight halachic view.

Comments?

Shoshana L. Boublil

In Avodah Digest V23#206, RAF wrote:
> The [newer] R?delheim siddur... [has] Ps. XXVII for Elul->8 'Atzeret. <
Ad v'lo ad bichlal: the instructions are clear that "in some
congregations," the kapitel is said through Hosha'na Rabba (Shmini Chag
haAtzeres isn't Sukkos, so the asmachta of "ki yitzp'neini b'sukkoh"
doesn't apply to it).

A guten Yuntef/Chag Sameach and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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Ledovid 27 AIUI is only about 250-300 years old as an addition anyway

FWIW Mizomr Shir #30  before Baruch She'amar dates from the time of Arizal
circa 1560 and was meant to start with  Aromimcha.  The first passuk was
intended by the Arizal to be omitted. It's use on hanukkah is probably older
- maybe he era of the Tur or earlier.

and FWIW Shri Mizmor L'asaf 83 is in older editions of the Koren Siddur,
probably because D. Goldshmidt was a yekke

-- 
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/




On 9/26/07, Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> Rabbotai,
>
> I have to issue a clarification: As RRW pointed out, Ps. XXVII is only in
> the
> newer R?delheim. This morning, I checked the Avodat Yisrael (Baer) and
> indeed, no such thing there, I happily stand corrected.
>
> Interestingly, this morning I heard for the first time how late the
> inclusion
> of Ps.XXVII in Basel was. It happened merely a few decades ago. Some
> wanted
> to say it and others rightly said it wasn't our minhag. A compromise was
> reached (one I never understood 'till today): Ps.XXVII is said on
> weekdays,
> but Shabbat & Yom Tov.
>
> Now another data point: I checked the Ashkenaz version of Rav Ya'aqov
> Emden's
> siddur, and it has Ps. XXVII, too. However, that is *not* the first
> edition.
> Does anone have access to the first edition to check?
> --
> Arie Folger
> http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com
>
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Do most people on this board use the palm pockets to hold the Haddasim and  
Arovos? Do that constitute a chatzitzoh between the Arbo Minim being that the  
palm leaves used in those pockets are dried up? I understand these pockets 
have  only been used in practice for a very short time, maybe to give people 
something  to do with last years lulovim. Or maybe should one bind them like the  
Lubavitchers do, with just a couple palm leaves to keep the parts  together?
 
 



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On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 06:39:28PM -0400, RallisW@aol.com wrote:
: Do most people on this board use the palm pockets to hold the
: Haddasim and Arovos? Do that constitute a chatzitzoh ...

Min bemino eino chotzeitz.

:                                                 I understand these pockets 
: have  only been used in practice for a very short time...

See the picture at <http://tinyurl.com/2o59l4>. Even in Bar Kochva's day,
hadasim and aravos were held with the lulav by a woven basket.

Gut Voch!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced, with a decision, ask yourself,
micha@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

I asked my Rav whether b'shaas ha'dchak one could rely on heter mechora. 
I based my question on the psak from Rav Shlomo zalman that it is mittar 
b'achila, with kedushas shviis.

His response was that even if we hold shamur v'neevad is muttar (which 
is the basis for Rav Shlomo Zalman's psak), there is still a problem of 
sefichim and sefichim is assur comlpetely.

So I guess if you know the hetter mechira produce is not sefichin, maybe 
it would be ok...

Kol tuv
Rafi

---------
Goldmeier
goldmeier@012.net.il

http://torahthoughts.blogspot.com
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com
http://parshaquestions.blogspot.com
http://yomtovthoughts.blogspot.com




Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
> During a discussion on another list, someone raised the opinion that 
> (according to him) Chareidim consider eating "Heter Mechira" produce like 
> eating Tereifot and Neveilot.
>
> I can't figure this one out.
>
> When I asked a Rabbi from Machon HaTorah VeHaretz, he gave me source from 
> Chazon Ish and Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach that say that Heter Mechira 
> produce BeDi'avad are mutar.
>
> I also recall a lecture many years ago, in which the basic issue with regard 
> to Heter Mechira was whether or not Shmitta was D'Oraita or DeRabanan in our 
> times.  Besides the question of Yovel, the issue was whether the Medina is a 
> Malchut, in a halachic sense, which would, if the answer was positive, 
> influence the balance of matter so that shmitta would be D'Oraita.
>
> And yet, AFAIK, the majority consider Shmitta in our time D'Rabbanan.
>
> I realize that politics influences things -- but I want to know from a 
> straight halachic view.
>
> Comments?
>
> Shoshana L. Boublil
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
>   

I excerpted the following from Perceptions by Rabbi Pinchas Winston...

As most people know, the holidays of Shemini Atzeres and Simchas Torah are
on the same day in Eretz Yisroel. Now, normally we say, "One should not
combine joyous events" (Moed Katan 8b), but in this case the reason is
simple: it is all ONE simchah! 

For, Shemini Atzeres celebrates the special relationship the Jewish people
have with God (see Rashi on Vayikra 23:36); Simchas Torah celebrates the
special relationship the Jewish people have with Torah. And, the Zohar ties
it all up rather nicely by stating: The Holy One, Blessed is He, and Torah
are one; one who merits a portion of Torah merits the Name of The Holy One,
Blessed is He (Zohar 90b). Elsewhere, the Zohar says, "there is no Torah
except for The Holy One, Blessed is He." 

Thus, the day on which both Shemini Atzeres and Simchas Torah are celebrated
is the time that both relationships ought to dovetail into one, where the
grasping and cherishing of Torah is also the cherishing of one's
relationship with God. The feeling of love of God is the fulfillment of the
holiday of Shemini Atzeres; the feeling of love of Torah is the fulfillment
of the holiday of Simchas Torah. The feeling of both at the same time is the
fulfillment of what it means to be part of the Jewish people in totality. 

Richard Wolberg 

 

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Where did the minhog of reciting Ko Kayli come from? Why is it not said on  
Shabbos which occurs on Yom Tov? Why is it not recited when on says Yizkor (if  
one should say Yizkor on Yom Tov is another issue)? How come this is the  
only Piyut that is commoly recited?
 
In regard to Hoshanos, I use a Roedelheim Machzor. How come the  Hoshanos 
that I say differ from the usual ones said by my shul, except for  Shabbos? 
 
Why didn't shuls say HaShem HaShem this Yom Kippur before Krias HaTorah  even 
though it is said or should be said numerous times during  davening/orenen?



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On 9/29/07, RallisW@aol.com <RallisW@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Why didn't shuls say HaShem HaShem this Yom Kippur before Krias HaTorah
> even though it is said or should be said numerous times during
> davening/orenen?
>

According to the Rinat Yisrael machzor, this is said on Shabboos YK.
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The gematria for Rosh Chodesh is 813. 

In the whole of tanach there is only one verse with the gematria of 813.
It is B'reishis, Chapter 1, verse 3.  
"Vayomer Elohim ohr, vay'hi ohr"  "And God said: Let there be light and
there was light." 

 

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On 9/27/07, Goldmeier <goldmeier@012.net.il> wrote:
> I asked my Rav whether b'shaas ha'dchak one could rely on heter mechora.
> I based my question on the psak from Rav Shlomo zalman that it is mittar
> b'achila, with kedushas shviis.
>
> His response was that even if we hold shamur v'neevad is muttar (which
> is the basis for Rav Shlomo Zalman's psak), there is still a problem of
> sefichim and sefichim is assur comlpetely.
>
> So I guess if you know the hetter mechira produce is not sefichin, maybe
> it would be ok...

I received basically the same psak; they said for the first few weeks
of the year, we can assume there is no issue of sefichin, but any
other time during the year, we will by definition have the problem of
sefichin if the vegetables are being sold in mass quantities through
heter mechira.

On 9/29/07, RallisW@aol.com <RallisW@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Why didn't shuls say HaShem HaShem this Yom Kippur before Krias HaTorah
> even though it is said or should be said numerous times during
> davening/orenen?
>

Many DO say hashem Hashem on Shabbos YK whilst taking out the Torah
There are even SOME who say it on RH whilst taking out the Torah

-- 
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On 9/26/07, RallisW@aol.com <RallisW@aol.com> wrote:
>
>   Do that constitute a chatzitzoh between the Arbo Minim being that the
> palm leaves used in those pockets are dried up?
>

I thought we pasken Like R. Meir  that any binding is kosher.




-- 
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 23, Issue 207
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