Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 206

Wed, 26 Sep 2007

• 1. Re: rationalism and mysticism (david guttmann)
• 2. Re: lifnei iver/kanaus (Doron Beckerman)
• 3. Re: Ledovid in German Siddurim (Arie Folger)
• 4. Re: Berich Shemei (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: rationalism and mysticism (Richard Wolpoe)
• 6. Re: Ledovid in German Siddurim (Richard Wolpoe)
• 7. Shomer Aveidah (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 8. Re: Ledovid in German Siddurim (Arie Folger)
• 9. Lament, Repent and Cement (R Wolberg)
• 10. Arba Minim (R Wolberg)

I have been following the discussions between RAF, RYG, RRW and others on
Rambam's purported mysticism. Let me put my two senses in. Prof David
Blumenthal wrote a very good book "Philosophic Mysticism" on the subject as
did R. Jose Faur - "Homo Mysticus" which touches on the issue. Blumenthal
defines spirituality as awareness of the presence of an entity we call God
and mysticism as a subset of spirituality where the mystic navigates a
prescribed hierarchy to acquire this awareness. Magic is when the mystic can
affect that power he perceives and make it do his wish. I think these
definitions are quite good and if we follow them , Rambam in MN 3:51 clearly
accepts this spiritual awareness. It is what he sees in shir hasirim any
Yesheina Velibi Eir. We also see it in Hilchot Teshuvah last Perek, in the
4th Perek of Yesodei Hatorah and the 7th of the same legabei nevuah. He also
talks in that chapter 51 about an Avodah post apprehension. Here is where
there is room for different understandings. Blumenthal sees it as a mystical
experience, knowledge being the 10 tzurot all the way to the Sechel Hapoel,
and when the person grasps them and becomes aware through them it is
hierarchical and mystical. Rav Kafih as we can glean from his notes is
careful to translate in a way that this is not read into it. I believe that
what Rambam refers to as the Avodah after knowledge is what he describes at
the end of MN3:54 where one does Chesed Mishpat and Tzedakah to emulate
HKBH. 

Magic of course does not exist. There is a basic difference between Rambam
and Ramban on this issue. Ramban sees a non physical influence by stars and
spheres on this world. They control the future and even according to ravad
(and I think Ramban is explicit too) people's destiny. That is the basis for
astrology. It is therefore to be expected that a "knowledgeable" person may
find the key to change the mind or deflect this non physical influence -
that is magic.( See Ramban in Parshat shofetim 18:9 where he gives the
example of a mirror deflecting rays.) Rambam accepts the stars influence the
earth but only physically through gravity (unknown to him but some similar
force) thus causing movement, mixture of the 4 elements and tides. To Rambam
therefore magic cannot be possible because the only thing it could try to
affect is HKBH and Ani hashem lo shiniti! In fact one cannot change Minhago
shel olam except know the time to take advantage of abnormalities put into
teva at creation bein Hashemashot (ktav michtav etc) or before (Kryat yam
Suf). Therefore the issur can only apply to sleight of hand. 

I am currently writing a series of posts on this on my blog and will expand
more there.

Chag Sameach to all.

David Guttmann
 
If you agree that Believing is Knowing, join me in the search for Knowledge
at http://yediah.blogspot.com/ 
 
Ve'izen vechiker (Kohelet 12:9) subscribe to Hakirah at www.hakirah.org 

<<But even if the Rav is not negligent, if the item is lost or stolen, then
he has been put in the position of having to swear that he was not
negligent.  Why should he be put in this position if what he did was not
only mutar but a mitzvah?>>

<You could ask the same question on a Shomer Aveida, who is also involved in
a Mitzvah and yet he is either a Shomer Chinam or a Shomer Sachar. (BK 56).>

    No comparison. In the case of aveida, the shmira is itself part of the
mitzva.

This just reinforces the point. Why does the Torah not impose a Chiyuv
Shmirah K'lapei Shmaya, where there is no monetary claim on the side of the
loser in case of Geneiva/ Aveida (if Shomer Sachar) or suspected P'shia?
There is no contradiction between being involved in a Mitzvah and the Torah
imposing attendant Chiyuvim upon you.

(Even a Zaken V'Ainah L'fi Kevodo who volunteers to do the Hashava would
have either a Shomer Chinam or Shomer Sachar status - L'chorah depending on
the two explanations in the Gemara there for why he is a Shomer Sachar).
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RDBloom wrote:
> > > I may add that Baer and Heidenheim also don't print Thilim 27 LeDavid,
> > > H Ori VeYishi, which Litvaks say from RH Elul thru Sukkot.

I replied:
> > They do.

RJB expressed his astonishment:
> ??
>
> What's the antecedent to "They"?

The R?delheim siddur, and IIRC, Baer, as well, have Ps. XXVII for Elul-> 
8 'Atzeret.

You say that your edition of either don't have it. I don't have an old edition 
at hand, and am very interested in seeing them. However, the currently used 
R?delheim definitely has Ps. XXVII (we use that edition of R?d. every day), 
and I seem to recall that the edition that is "parked" accross from my seat 
in shul has it, too. But BN, I'll check that one, too, tomorrow.
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

On 9/25/07, Danny Schoemann <doniels@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > We know the "yekkim" coined the phrase "minhag avoteinu Torah Hi".
>
> Now have a source for KSA 199:10 which says: "... The minhag is to be
> careful not to go into a house before washing hands when returning
> from the cemetery, Uminhag avoteinu Torah."
>
> :-)
>
> - Danny
> _______________________________________________
>

AIUI the Kitzur in Ungvar  must have been an "Oberlander" because they tend
to follow minhaggim in a VERY similar fashion as do Yekkes. I have no idea
if Ungvar IS actually in Oberland - just that the KSA has that  kind of
outlook in several cases.


-- 
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On 9/25/07, david guttmann <david.guttman@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> I have been following the discussions between RAF, RYG, RRW and others on
> Rambam's purported mysticism. Let me put my two senses in. Prof David
> Blumenthal wrote a very good book "Philosophic Mysticism" on the subject
> as
> did R. Jose Faur - "Homo Mysticus" which touches on the issue. Blumenthal
> defines spirituality as awareness of the presence of an entity we call God
> and mysticism as a subset of spirituality where the mystic navigates a
> prescribed hierarchy to acquire this awareness. Magic is when the mystic
> can
> affect that power he perceives and make it do his wish. I think these
> definitions are quite good and if we follow them , Rambam in MN 3:51
> clearly
> accepts this spiritual awareness. It is what he sees in shir hasirim any
> Yesheina Velibi Eir. We also see it in Hilchot Teshuvah last Perek, in the
> 4th Perek of Yesodei Hatorah and the 7th of the same legabei nevuah. He
> also
> talks in that chapter 51 about an Avodah post apprehension. Here is where
> there is room for different understandings. Blumenthal sees it as a
> mystical
> experience, knowledge being the 10 tzurot all the way to the Sechel
> Hapoel,
> and when the person grasps them and becomes aware through them it is
> hierarchical and mystical. Rav Kafih as we can glean from his notes is
> careful to translate in a way that this is not read into it. I believe
> that
> what Rambam refers to as the Avodah after knowledge is what he describes
> at
> the end of MN3:54 where one does Chesed Mishpat and Tzedakah to emulate
> HKBH.
>
> Magic of course does not exist. <snip>
>
> I am currently writing a series of posts on this on my blog and will
> expand
> more there.
>
> Chag Sameach to all.
>
> David Guttmann
>
> If you agree that Believing is Knowing, join me in the search for
> Knowledge
> at http://yediah.blogspot.com/
>
> Ve'izen vechiker (Kohelet 12:9) subscribe to Hakirah at www.hakirah.org


Yishar Kochehca or Hazak uvaruch -as the case may be.

Background: I personally don't define mysticism as including a particular
path to God.  My broad defintion of general mysticism is "Seeking to Bridge
the Gap between the Human and the Divine."  [i.e. Devikus or Gnosis].  This
is when we transcend the materail barriers in attemp to commune with God on
a higher plane.

While Rambam's higher metaphysical plane is - aiui - essentially
intellectual over emotional, he nevertheless DOES advocate a bridging of
that gap by demanding that we KNOW God - which is after all the Kafich
emendation to the earlier translation of BELIEVING in God.  Knowing God is
of course not Carnal - it is spirital/intellecutal and is  equivalent- aisi
- to Gnosis.

While the Rambam may have rejected most mystical schools, and he certainly
rejected the magical aspects of mystical schools, I think the Rambam
exhibited a strong Mystical bent - just not one that fits the conventional
mold of what WE term msyticism. His mysticim or GNOSIS was probably  the
traditional mysticism of Shir Hashirim and the Nevi'im to commune with God
through self-elevation, and mastery of Wisdom, Love of God, etc.

-- 
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On 9/25/07, Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>
> You say that your edition of either don't have it. I don't have an old
> edition
> at hand, and am very interested in seeing them. However, the currently
> used
> R?delheim definitely has Ps. XXVII (we use that edition of R?d. every
> day),
> and I seem to recall that the edition that is "parked" accross from my
> seat
> in shul has it, too. But BN, I'll check that one, too, tomorrow.
> --
> Arie Folger
> http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com
> _______________________________________________
>


Re: Pslam 27;  Newer Roedelheims DO have it, older ones do not.
I have not seen it in Baer.


Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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On Tue, 25 Sep 2007 03:42:16 -0700 RDB wrote:

> You could ask the same question on a Shomer Aveida, who is also involved in
> a Mitzvah and yet he is either a Shomer Chinam or a Shomer Sachar. (BK 56).
> L'Halachah, he is a Shomer Sachar.

Actually, while Maran rules that way, the Rema, Shach and Nesivos rule
that it's a Se'feika De'dina, and the Maharshal (cited by Shach) rules
that he's definitely only a Shomer Hinam; see SA HM 267:16.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - bdl.freehostia.com
An advanced discussion of Hoshen Mishpat

Rabbotai,

I have to issue a clarification: As RRW pointed out, Ps. XXVII is only in the 
newer R?delheim. This morning, I checked the Avodat Yisrael (Baer) and 
indeed, no such thing there, I happily stand corrected.

Interestingly, this morning I heard for the first time how late the inclusion 
of Ps.XXVII in Basel was. It happened merely a few decades ago. Some wanted 
to say it and others rightly said it wasn't our minhag. A compromise was 
reached (one I never understood 'till today): Ps.XXVII is said on weekdays, 
but Shabbat & Yom Tov.

Now another data point: I checked the Ashkenaz version of Rav Ya'aqov Emden's 
siddur, and it has Ps. XXVII, too. However, that is *not* the first edition. 
Does anone have access to the first edition to check?
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

Many of us at one time or other have thought that after a while, the idea of
teshuva loses its value since every year it?s the same thing. In other
words, if I did teshuva last year and was sincere and vowed never to repeat
my transgressions, then why in the world must I start over every year. What
value was my teshuva originally if I have to keep repeating it.
 
The answer is instructive.  Teshuva is a life long process. As an old
commercial read: ?You never outgrow your need for milk? ? likewise, you
never outgrow your need for teshuvah. In fact, the wiser you become, the
more you realize the greater the need for teshuva. As we once may have
thought that doing teshuva is an exercise in futility ? even if we keep
repeating our transgressions, the mere sincere attempt at teshuvah is
praiseworthy!
 
Hopefully, we all lamented, repented and cemented...
 
Isaiah 1:18   ???-??????? ?????????? ??????????? ?????????? ???????????
 
Richard Wolberg
 
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In doing research on the arba minim, I've come up with the following: 
ESROG  The citron fruit is slow-growing and tends to be short-lived...
The fruit has a very thick skin. It is very
<http://www.answers.com/topic/fragrant> fragrant and was valued in ancient
times for its  <http://www.answers.com/topic/aroma> aroma and its fragrant
peel oil, used in perfumes and as a  <http://www.answers.com/topic/moth>
moth repellent. If citrons are allowed to fully ripen on the tree they will
be very aromatic. The citron tree is highly sensitive to frost; does not
enter winter dormancy as early as other Citrus species.
Application: We Jews have developed a very thick skin over the years. In
spite of that, we can be fragrant, and if need be, we can repel our
adversaries. We are also a warm people and very sensitive to cold
personalities.
LULAV     Palm leaves are prominent and have a characteristic shape. Palms
are a  <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monophyly> monophyletic group of
plants, meaning that the group consists of a common ancestor.
 
Application: Jews have made their mark on humanity and have been quite
prominent with unique characteristics. Of course, Abraham is our common
ancestor.
 
HADASSIM    Myrtle leaves exude an aromatic and refreshing smell somewhat
reminiscent to myrrh or eucalypt; the taste is very intensive, quite
disagreeable and strongly bitter.
 
Application: We certainly have permeated civilization with an aromatic and
refreshing scent. However, as a means of protection and self-preservation,
we've distanced ourselves from those who were out to harm us by employing a
strongly bitter taste. 
 
ARAVOS   The Willows are a family of trees and shrubs which differ greatly
in size and habit of growth but are very much alike in other respects.
Their roots are remarkable for their toughness, size, and tenacity of life.
 
Application: Although we are not monolithic and differ greatly in many
areas, we are nevertheless much alike in other respects. Our foundation is
also remarkable for its toughness and tenacity of life. I am reminded about
the tefillin. The Shel Yad has one piece of parchment with the four
different Torah passages, but the shel rosh has four separate parchment
compartments. What it teaches is that when it comes to thinking, we can
think independently and disagree with one another. However, when it comes to
action, we are unified (or at least, should be). So though we differ in
ideas we are very much alike in our ultimate goals.
 
Richard Wolberg
 
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