Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 197

Tue, 18 Sep 2007

• 1. I am looking for a book - Torah and Math (Galsaba@aol.com)
• 2. Re: I am looking for a book - Torah and Math (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 3. Re: Selichos - Especially before Midnight (Michael Poppers)
• 4. Re: Selichos - Especially before Midnight (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: Selichos - Especially before Midnight (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: Shehecheyanu for shmitta (Marty Bluke)
• 7. Two Days of YK - a Question from my son (Richard Wolpoe)
• 8. Re: Shehecheyanu for shmitta (Michael Poppers)
• 9. Shmittah (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 10. slichos hayom (Saul.Z.Newman@kp.org)
• 11. Re: Shehecheyanu for shmitta (Richard Wolpoe)
• 12. Re: ha-sameach be-chelko (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 13. Re: Trying to understand the rationale for Pas Yisroel when e ating an Oreo (kennethgmiller@juno.com)

I am looking for a book written by HaRav Menachem Meshiv Nefesh.
The name of the book is:
"Merkevet Hamishnah , Contras Breichot BeCheshbon".
 
I learned about this book when I read Masechet Pesachim Daf 89 Amud 2.
"Artscroll" bring there a beatiful peirush to the story of Rav Huna that 
share his Pesach with Rav Papa, and then with Rabina. Rav Huna said then: "A 
hundred Papas rather than one Rabina".
 
I liked the peirush of Harav Menachem Meshiv Nefesh, and I would like to read 
more.
Anyone knows how I can get the book?
 
Thanks,
 
galsaba



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R' galsaba:
I am looking for a book written by HaRav Menachem Meshiv Nefesh.
The name of the book is:
"Merkevet Hamishnah , Contras Breichot BeCheshbon".
?
I learned about this book when I read Masechet Pesachim Daf 89 Amud 2.
"Artscroll" bring there a beatiful peirush to the story of Rav Huna that
share his Pesach with Rav Papa, and then with Rabina. Rav Huna said then: "A
hundred Papas rather than one Rabina".
?
I liked the peirush of Harav Menachem Meshiv Nefesh, and I would like to
read more.
Anyone knows how I can get the book?




It looks like the citation was a bit confusing. I didn't see the Artscroll,
but the _sefer_ Menachem Meishiv Nefesh (written by R' Menachem Manish
Halperin) cites a different sefer, Mirkeves Hamishneh (written by R' Shlomo
ben Moshe Machlama), which has in it a section titled Kuntres Breichos
B'cheshbon. That section is about fifteen pages long, towards the end of the
second volume of Mirkeves Hamishnah. It looks like this Kuntres is about
various mathematically-inclined Sugyos. BTW, I am not sure which Pshat the
Artscroll, quotes, but it seems that the Menachem Meishiv Nefesh's Pirush is
not the same as the Mirkeves Hamishnah's. 

KT,
MYG

In Avodah Digest V23#196, RAF replied to RRW:
>> As we know, the first night MIGHT be a valid exception in that pizmon -
even for yekkes - starts "Bemotzo'ei Menuchei" - suggesting ?A Saturday
Night start. ?[nevertheless as noted - Yekkes do it before dawn even on the
first Sunday...] <<
> Yes, it says bemotzaei menuchah, but it also mentions: "retzeh 'atiratam
be'amedam baleilot". Clearly this stuff was composed for early mornings. <
Perhaps that "amidah" refers to a Tiqqun Chatzos type (and timing)?

That pizmon is labeled Daled in my Roedelheim-print "haS'lichos l'Chol
haShanah" book (living in a minhag-Lita community, I haven't opened it in
some time :-)).  The previous s'lichah, labeled Gimel, is "Tavo L'fanecha
Shav'as Chinun" (I don't recall whether or when it's said in minhag Lita)
has phraseology which might be a stronger proof for its (and all s'lichos
l'Yom Rishon) being said closer to morning than to chatzos halaylah: "hayom
k'meiaz b'li sibbah/hin'nu l'fanecha b'ashmah rabbah."

G'mar tov and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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On 9/17/07, Michael Poppers <MPoppers@kayescholer.com> wrote:
>
> In Avodah Digest V23#196, RAF replied to RRW:
> >> As we know, the first night MIGHT be a valid exception in that pizmon -
> even for yekkes - starts "Bemotzo'ei Menuchei" - suggesting ?A Saturday
> Night start. ?[nevertheless as noted - Yekkes do it before dawn even on the
> first Sunday...] <<
> > Yes, it says bemotzaei menuchah, but it also mentions: "retzeh 'atiratam
> be'amedam baleilot". Clearly this stuff was composed for early mornings. <
> Perhaps that "amidah" refers to a Tiqqun Chatzos type (and timing)?
>
> G'mar tov and all the best from
> --Michael Poppers via RIM pager
>
NO Real S'tira - AISI:

""Bemotzo'ei Menuchei" - suggesting ?A Saturday Night start." right
kidmanuch
"retzeh 'atiratam be'amedam baleilot" Leilot refers to the FOLLOWING nights
NOT the first

So this pizmon suggests BOTH starting Sat. Night and continuing in the end
of the night before morning
-- 
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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>From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
>
>However, I see no point in this analysis. Selichot were developed for being
>recited in the morning. I am utterly unaware of a minhag to say selichot,
>which does not also care about when it is recited.
>
>AFAIK, never before the 19th/20th century did people say selichot at 10pm.


So very possibly a new minhag is being established as we speak, one 
in which there is some disconnection between the words and when they 
are being said. Is this such a new idea, ie that the words that we 
recite are not in tune with our reality?

Ben 

On 9/18/07, Michael Poppers <MPoppers@kayescholer.com> wrote:
>
>
>  What about shmittas k'safim -- isn't it a "mitzvah related to shemitta"?

According to most Rishonim Shemitas Kesafim is only at the end of the
shmitta year, to make a beracha now on shemittas kesafim would not
really make sense.

My son Zvi asked me tonight the following question:

IF the orignal Minhag had been to keep  2 days of YK when  kevius was still
> by witnesses
> THEN would Hazal have subsequently exempted  a 2-day YK  when the calendar
> became fixed by Hillel II?
> OR would they have perpetuated the "minhag avoseinu b'yadeinu" for YK ,
> too and required 2 days?"
>

Seconds later a follow-up, corollary question occurred to me:

> Given that there were  Amora'im in the G'mara who DID observe 2 days of YK
> -
> Q:  Were those Amorai'm ONLY before Hillel II? IOW did that "humra"
> disappear with the advent of a fixed calendar?
>

If anyone can point me to that sugya I can check it out myself.

-- 
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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RMarBl replied to me:
>>  What about shmittas k'safim -- isn't it a "mitzvah related to
shemitta"? <<
> According to most Rishonim Shemitas Kesafim is only at the end of the
shmitta year, ... <
Granted.
> ...to make a beracha now on shemittas kesafim would not
really make sense. <
Not granted ;-).  As you just wrote, "shmittah" is applicable over the
entire *year* -- that is its "z'man."  The b'rachah of "shehecheyanu,"
needless to say, relates to "z'man hazeh."  If one argues, and you're
quoting RSZA as having thus argued, that we should have in mind the mitzvos
related to "shmittah," shouldn't we (at least possibly) have in mind any
and all such mitzvos, whenever during the "z'man" they 'activate,' such
that a chutznik should have in mind shmittas k'safim?  All this aside,
perhaps it's appropriate (again, just arguing l'shitas RSZA for now) for a
chutznik to have in mind all the mitzvos that *any member of K'lal Yisrael*
may be able to fulfill during the above-mentioned "z'man," regardless of
whether he personally will fulfill them b'yadayim?  Thanks.

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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Zev Sero writes (in Areivim) about the heter mechirah: "And one test [as to whether it was a real sale] is how the sellers would react if at the end of the year the Arab showed up with a bank cheque for 71.5 billion shekel, drawn on the central bank of Saudi Arabia, and refused to sell the land back." While this sounds reasonable as a test, is there any source that says that this is a test to determine if a sale is real or a sham according to halacha?

Joseph Kaplan
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someone in shul worried that we are saying the wrong day slichos [ ie 
today yom shlishi shel 10 yemei tshuva], since tzom gdalia was nidche.  i 
have never heard of flipping the order for this reason [as opposed to 
rvii/chmishi which flip in some minhagim to coincide 13 middos with 
mon/thurs.   on the other hand, hoshanos order depends on  the start day 
of yom tov.   anyone aware of a minhag of this sort?

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On 9/17/07, Michael Poppers <MPoppers@kayescholer.com> wrote:
>
>
> What about shmittas k'safim -- isn't it a "mitzvah related to shemitta"?
> Thanks.
>
> G'mar chasimah tovah and all the best from
> --Michael Poppers via RIM pager
>
>
> Great Point I was mulling over this myself
Given: Shmittas kesafim takes place at the END of the Shmittah year
Q1: WHEN we would say this shehecheyanu?    Would we say the shehecheyanu at
the beginning of the year or at the end?
Q2: Would the shehecheyanu said on RH suffice for BOTH?


-- 
Kesiva vaChasima Tova
Best Wishes for 5768,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
Please Visit:
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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R' Eli Turkel asked:
> 2. In spiritual matters ha-sameach be-chelko seems even less
> appropriate. It seems to be the opposite of teshuva which says
> that one should never be happy with ones status and always
> work on getting better.

Yes, I totally agree.

My understanding is that "hasameach bechelko" applies primarily to one's material possessions, and not at all to one's spiritual accomplishments.

One piece of evidence is that "kin'as sofrim" is commendable. As RET wrote, one should indeed always try to accomplish more in ruchnius.

The second proof is that "hakol bi'ydei Shamayim chutz mi'yiras Shamayim":

1) "Hakol bi'ydei Shamayim" teaches us about the "chelek" that one should be sameach about. Namely, that I got my chelek, I got what is proper for me. This includes (according to Rashi, Brachos 33b) my mental abilities (in Rashi's words, "chacham/shoteh"). Therefore, even in matters of learning Torah, I am not overly jealous of those who are able to learn better than me.

2) "Chutz mi'yiras Shamayim", it seems to me, teaches about spiritual accomplishments. I need to improve myself. I am not impressed by how many blatt gemara a person has mastered, but I *AM* impressed by how hard he worked at mastering them. Similarly, I am impressed by the self-control a person had when he restrained himself in a difficult situation.

These ideas can be illustrated by a comment my wife made a number of years ago, when she heard about the New York City Marathon -- a 26-mile race on foot. She said that she had some admiration for the winners of the race, but not a whole lot. On the one hand, yes they did train long and hard to accomplish those goals, but on the other hand they (or most of them) were blessed with strong bodies to begin with. The people she REALLY admires are the ones who finish the race LAST - sometimes a good 24 hours or more after the race began. Those people could very easily have dropped out, and many of them did. But the ones who stuck to it and kept going all the way to the finish line, those are the people to admire.

So too, b'nidon didan. "Hasameach bechelko" teaches that it is unproductive to wish for things that are not already in my chelek. But in Ruchniyus, where no one is assigned any particular amount, more is certainly better.

Akiva Miller

R' Avroham Yakov asked:
> The main point of Pas Yisroel is because of chasunos.
> Obviously, if I cook my cholent and other food in for example
> Mrs. O’Leary’s house, I will become quite friendly with them.
> But when eating an Oreo, or any other commercial type of
> product, what is the rationale that it should be Pas Yisroel?

(Minor point: Cholent is a cooked food, and would not be subject to the laws of Pas Yisroel. But it *would* be subject to the laws of Bishul Yisroel (a/k/a Bishul Akum), which is also because of chasunos, and so the question is still a good one.)

First, I have heard that there are indeed some poskim who exempt commercially manufactured items from the laws of Bishul Yisroel, for exactly the logic that RAY suggests. Romance is a more likely problem in a private kitchen than in a factory.

Unfortunately, I do not know which poskim say that. I presume that the argument of the other poskim (the ones who do NOT exempt commercial items) is that "lo plug" -- a general law was made, and exemptions are not granted for special cases.

However, isn't it true that this is precisely the distinction between Pas Akum and Pas Palter? Pas Akum - the bread that a non-Jew made at home - is always assur. But Pas Palter - bread made by a non-Jewish commercial bakery - is allowed by most poskim most of the year (Aseres Ymei Teshuva being different).

AIUI, Pas Palter was allowed for two reasons: Because chasunos is less likely to be a problem with a commercial bakery, and because bread is such an important food that restricting our ability to buy it was too difficult for most people. Thus, although Chazal initially tried to forbid all non-Jewish bread, the people ratified this law only for private bread, and not for commercial bread.

This leads me to a question that has bothered me for a long time, and which is hinted at in RAY's question: Why are Oreos exempted from being Pas Akum?

This time of year, various publications remind us to eat only Pas Yisroel. Many of them point of that these halachos apply to both Pas Lechem and also to Pas Habaa Bkisnin. The would indicate that the original gezera of Pas Yisroel applied to both categories. But it seems to me that cake and cookies are not an essential food the way bread is. And I can't imagine that they were *ever* such an essential food. So when the people put their foot down, and said, "No! This is going too far! We can't do it!", did they really reject this halacha for cookies too?

Akiva Miller



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