Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 172

Mon, 20 Aug 2007

• 1. Re: Luchos (Micha Berger)
• 2. Testing God (Jonathan Baker)
• 3. Re: Standing for the Chasan and Kalah (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: Why is Milchemes Reshus allowed? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. Standing for the Chasan and Kalah (Prof. Levine)
• 6. standing for chasan and kallah (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 7. Ben Pekuah (Meir Rabi)
• 8. Intuition - sources (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 9. Re: Why is Milchemes Reshus allowed? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Kapparos Report - JP Machberes (Yitzchok Levine)
• 11. The Custom of Reciting l'Dovid HaShem Ori (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Testing God (Zev Sero)
• 13. ROSH HASHANA and YK: Hee-ne-ni--"Tefilla Acheret Lechazanim" query (2nd attempt) (Noah Witty)
• 14. Variable standards (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Re: standing for chasan and kallah (Moshe Y. Gluck)

On Wed, Aug 15, 2007 at 08:02:17PM -0400, hankman wrote:
: The point you (RLT) make in your previous response is precisely the point
: RYH builds his
: thesis upon. The parallelism that exists between dibros 1-5 and dibros 6-10,
: the first set of 5 in a context of bein odom lamokom and the last 5 in the
: context of bein odomo lachaveiro...

I would have proposed a reverse parallelism, a symmetry, a-t ba-sh
style. Note that the first diberah is an avodah shebeleiv BAlM, whereas
the 10th is an avodah shebeleiw BAlC.

BTW, in case no one posted it already, the division of 5 and 5 is in
Mekhilta, besheim Rabbi Chanina b Gamliel. The chakhamim hold it was
two copies of all 10. Not that "yachid verabim" applies to this kind of
question, but it does mean the 5+5 idea is far from a given.

:-)BBii!
-mi

RMKopinsky:

> I remembering seeing a Teshuva once (maybe Shu"t haRashb"a - I saw it on the
> Bar Ilan CD, so I don't remember what it was) asking about a person who
> said, "I will give tzedaka if my son gets well, and I won't give tzedaka if
> my son doesn't get well."  The question was, can you force him to give the
> tzedaka in any case, enforcing the Mishna in Pirkei Avos, "Al Tihyu
> ka'avadim."  The answer was that no he doesn't have to give the tzedaka.

So I've heard informally in other places: "tzedaka is the one thing you can
do to test Hashem; anything else, e.g. 'if X doesn't happen, I'll eat a ham
sandwich', is right out."

Tangentially - I wonder if we point that mishnah correctly?  Maybe it should
be "al tihyu k'OVDIM"?  The slave doesn't work to get a reward, he works
to avoid punishment.  The employee works to get his wage.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

     By right, the kinyan should be made and the kesuba signed at the
point where now we read it.  In EY, many do just that: the k'suba is
read until "v'kanina," at which time the kinyan is made and the eidim
sign, and then the last part is read.



EMT


==============================
So why don't "we" do this?
KT
Joel Rich
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R' Richard Wolpoe suggested:
> Maybe a milchmes mitzva is one that is required immediately
> while a milchemes reshus is simply one that is like a
> pre-emptive siirke - iow if you don't fight NOW sooner or
> later you may have to anyway. ... It is a Reshus NOW becasue
> the enemies are dormant, but it is not simply an exercise in
> wasting human life

The problem with this theory is that I see no evidence for it. On the contrary, a couple of posters referred to cases where a milchemes reshus was based purely on economic reasons, which I *would* consider to be "an exercise in wasting human life".

Even in a case where, Rachmana Litzlan, our countrymen are dying of starvation, and that could be remedied by attacking another country, I can't see any justification in killing those foreigners unless they are actually responsible for our starvation. Pikuach nefesh can justify stealing their food, but not killing their people.

Akiva Miller

At 03:02 AM 08/17/2007, R. EMT wrote:

>      (I once argued this point with a rosh yeshiva at a yeshivishe 
> chasuna, where the chasan would be in a kollel and the kallah would 
> earn the parnasa. On the way home, my wife asked what it was about, 
> and when I told her, she said, "And when it says that he promised 
> 'va'ana eflach v'okir v'eizon va'afarnes yasichi,' isn't that 
> mechezi k'shikra?")
>
>EMT

Many years ago a friend of mine who is, unfortunately, no longer in 
this world, told me the following story. His son had a chavrusa who 
had connections with KAJ, the German community in Washington Heights. 
Shortly before this fellow's Chasuna he went to Rav Dr. Yosef Breuer, 
ZT"L, for a brocha. In the course of their meeting, Rav Breuer asked 
this fellow what he planned to do after he married. He replied that 
he was going to learn full-time in Kollel. Rav Breuer asked him how 
he was going to support himself and his wife. The fellow replied that 
his wife was going to work and support both of them.

Rav Breuer asked this young man if he had the kesuva that was going 
to be used at the Chasuna with him. Bewildered, the fellow replied 
that he did not. Rav Breuer asked him to return with it the next day.

The Chosson to be returned the next day with the kesuva, still not 
comprehending what was going on.  Rav Breuer looked at the Kesuva and 
said,"Here it says you are going to support her! Auf a falshe zach, 
kein brocha!" >:-}


Yitzchok Levine 
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<Can I presume that according to that sefer, since the groom is not yet a chasan until the chupah, there is no reason to skip Tachanun if Mincha is said prior to said chupah?>

     No, because the gathering is one of simcha shel mitzva, even if it has not yet taken place. The day is yom chasunaso v'yom simchas libo. In fact, minhag Yerushalayim is that if a wedding is taking place later in the day -- even after tzeis, IIANM -- the chasan's presence at a minyan results in tachanun not being said.  After all, on the day of a bris we skip tachanun in the presence of father, sandak or mohel, even though the bris may be taking place much later in the day.

EMT

I have been learning for a while the sugya of Ben Pekuah. I am interested
primarily in the lomdus but also in the practical considerations.

I would appreciate any thoughts on or off the list.

I will offer this as a starting point: the Mishnah Chulin 74, says that if a
pregnant beast is killed the foetus is prohibited since the mother was not
shechted. The problem is: what is the HaVa AmiNa, would we ever have
considered that such a foetus is kosher without Shechitah?

From a practical perspective we should ponder the following: since it is
relatively easy to procure and then breed BP with one another and this
provides a herd of BP [YD 13] why is this not pursued as a method for having
animals that are all kosher as BP are not Treifos in spite of any blemishes
they may have. 

 

 

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I am interested in sources which say to rely on intution to know answers 
for spiritual and existential issues.

Have the following so far:
The Seridei Aish says that faith is intuitive rather than rational
Chovas HaLevavos (4:3) says that one knows which is the correct job 
because it is enjoyable.
Avoda Zara (19a) One should learn that which the heart desires
Gra in Mishlei says theortically we know intitutively what our avodas 
Hashem is but since we are not spiritual refined enough we can't rely on it.

Any source that  "G-d wants the heart" that one should do that which  
seems intutively correct?


Daniel Eidensohn

On Fri, Aug 17, 2007 at 12:12:16PM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: Even in a case where, Rachmana Litzlan, our countrymen are dying of
: starvation, and that could be remedied by attacking another country,
: I can't see any justification in killing those foreigners unless they
: are actually responsible for our starvation. Pikuach nefesh can justify
: stealing their food, but not killing their people.

Is this so? Even an ubar can be a rodeif.

I also don't know if the country needs to be at the point of having many
people starving to death before the economy costs more lives than would
war.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

See http://www.jewishpress.com/page.do/23267/My_Machberes.html for 
more on the problems with doing kapporos with chickens.

The next to the last sentence in the article is, "Reviewing the 
entire current kapparos situation, using alternatives to chickens 
such as money to tzedakah, might be a desirable option."

Gut Voch,

Yitzchok Levine 
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 From 
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2006/09/custom-of-reciting-ldovid-hashem-ori.html


<http://seforim.blogspot.com/2006/09/custom-of-reciting-ldovid-hashem-ori.html>The 
Custom of Reciting l'Dovid HaShem Ori

A fairly universal custom is to recite the passage from Psalms 
l'Dovid Hashem Ori twice a day during the month of Elul. A question 
which has received renewed scrutiny recently is where this custom 
came from. The most obvious answer is the work Hemdat Yamim. This 
work, however, is rather controversial. Many claim this book (which 
has many other well-accepted customs) was written by Nathan of Gaza, 
the prophet of the infamous false-Messiah Shabbetai Zevi. Thus, if 
the Hemdat Yamim is in fact the source, that would not be a good thing.

So, some have claimed that in fact there is another source for the 
recitation of l'Dovid HaShem during Elul. They point to the book Shem 
Tov Kotton. In this book, which is a collection of additionally 
kabbalistic prayers, there is a mention to say l'Dovid HaShem during 
Elul. The problem, however, is that a) Shem Tov Kotton only says to 
do so on Monday and Thursday and the 10 days of repentance but not 
everyday in Elul; (b) he also says that not only one should say 
l'Dovid but also additionally prayers some of his own compilation and 
others such as the 13 middot haRachmim and the Psalm Rananu Tzadikim; 
(c) finally, he says to say l'dovid HaShem immediately after Shmonei 
Esreh. So it would seem that in all likelihood the Shem Tov Katton is 
not the source of our custom to say l'Dovid daily, at the end of 
prayers, without any additional prayers.

So we are back to square one.

See the above URL for more.
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Jonathan Baker wrote:

> So I've heard informally in other places: "tzedaka is the one thing you can
> do to test Hashem

It comes from the pasuk which says openly "uvchanuni na bazot".
Technically this isn't so 100%, since the pasuk is about maaser d'oraita,
not tzedaka in general, but minhag yisrael is to extend it to all forms
of donations (including those that aren't technically tzedaka either,
such as money for yeshivot).

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

With minor changes for transliteration and typos, I received the 
following inquiry:

"A matter of curiosity regarding the 'tefilla shel shaliach tzibur' 
before Musaf on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur:

"In the older machzorim printed in Europe and the US, there is an 
additional tefilla after 'Hee-nneni he'ani me-ma'as.'  In the Machzor 
Rabba that I have, it is titled: 'Tefilla acheret lechazan' and is in 
small letters. This 'tefilla acheret' does not appear in the Rinat 
Yisrael Machzor at all. Perhaps you can find out something about the 
tefilla. When was it written?  By whom? And when?  And why was it 
included/excluded from the machzorim??"

Thanks in advance.
Noach Witty

I know of 2 mishnayot where the mishneh allows the possibility of  a
variable standard

1.Pesachim 48 b by chamatz not all women, wood and ovens are the same

2.Yevamot 120 a by how quickly a body decomposes

I was wondering why these 2 and not other possible cases (e.g. how
quickly food decomposes in the body)

KT
Joel Rich
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REMT:
>      No, because the gathering is one of simcha shel mitzva, even if it
> has not yet taken place. The day is yom chasunaso v'yom simchas libo.
> In fact, minhag Yerushalayim is that if a wedding is taking place later
> in the day -- even after tzeis, IIANM -- the chasan's presence at a
> minyan results in tachanun not being said

I don't recall _ever_ being at a Chasunah Minyan that said Tachanun, even
when the Chasan was _not_ Davening then.

KT,
MYG



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