Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 164

Mon, 06 Aug 2007

• 1. Re: What was actually written on the luchos, zachor (Saul Guberman)
• 2. Re: What was actually written on the luchos, zachor or shamor? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Jerusalem get-together (Danny Schoemann)
• 4. standing for a chasan (areivim@sba2.com)
• 5. Re: standing for a chasan (areivim@sba2.com)
• 6. Re: standing for a chasan (Gershon Dubin)
• 7. Re: standing for a chasan (Gershon Dubin)
• 8. Re: Charedim and the army? (Doron Beckerman)
• 9. Re: R' Ovadiah Yosef re candle-lighting (T613K@aol.com)
• 10. Re: R' Ovadiah Yosef re candle-lighting (Chana Luntz)
• 11. Sinas Chinam - Netziv's understanding (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 12. what is sinat chinam (Newman,Saul Z)
• 13. standing for a chasan (SBA)
• 14. Public school or non-Orthodox day school? (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 15. Hee-ne-ni--"Tefilla Acheret Lechazanim" query (Noah Witty)
• 16. Mesorah at End of Chumash/Parashah (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 17. Re: [Areivim] Accompanying someone to the hospital (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 18. shemitta (Eli Turkel)
• 19. Re: Accompanying someone to the hospital (Micha Berger)
• 20. choson domeh le-melech (SBA)
• 21. Re: [Areivim] Accompanying someone to the hospital (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 22. Re: What was actually written on the luchos, zachor (Marty Bluke)
• 23. Sinas Chinam - Netziv's understanding (Marty Bluke)
• 24. Re: R' Ovadiah Yosef re candle-lighting (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 25. Re: Public school or non-Orthodox day school? (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 26. Re: Charedim and the army (Ben Waxman)
• 27. R' Ovadiah Yosef re candle-lighting (Prof. Levine)
• 28. Re: Tagum Yonatan ben Uziel (saul mashbaum)
• 29. Re: Sinas Chinam - Netziv's understanding (Ken Bloom)

On 7/31/07, Marty Bluke <marty.bluke@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <It seems that Rashi holds that it is a miracle, just like the other
> things.
>
> Interestingly enough R' Yaakov quotes that Rashi and brings it as a
> proof that the 2 sets of luchos were exactly the same, meaning that
> the 2 luchos were identical. He maintains however, that only 1 set of
> text was written on the luchos.



I was just listening to a parsha shiur at  http://www.rabbisitorsky.com , a
Rabbi in Bayswater, NY.  He says that the midrashim state that the first
luchot were written as recorded in Yitro & the second as recorded in
V'Etchanan.  There are 17 more words & letter the  "tet" is in V'Etchanan &
not in Yitro.
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Regarding this question, I just happened to notice a relevant comment 
in Ohr Somayach's "Torah Weekly" e-mail on this week's parsha, from 
two years ago. The author there writes:

"The first Tablets did not contain words, they contained speech."

(I beleive that what he means is that the first luchos did not 
contain *written* words, spelled with specific letters.) The author 
does not give any source for this, but does elaborate on what he 
means. The full article can be read at 
http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/2293

The relevance for this thread is that this is another way that the 
first luchos could have both zachor *and* shamor. (The second set 
would need other solutions, such as those already posted.)

Akiva Miller

All chaveirim (and their significant others) are invited to a get
together in our home, in Jerusalem, in honour of R' Micha Berger and
his family.

Motzai Shabbos Shoftim - 18th August - from 21:30 until midnight.

RSVP for details and directions,

- Danny & Naomi Schoemann
  doniels@gmail.com

From: "Gershon Dubin" <>
<<A  talmid of R' HS pointed me to Mpninei Harav (p217) where he states
the reason for standing given by R' YBS is the on the way to do a
mitzvah (bikkurim) reason.>>

Which of course would make standing for the kallah meaningless, since
she's not doing a mitzva.
======

What about the chasan?

>>wonder how many other osei mitzva we stand for.


IIRC one should stand for a tzadaka collector. (I have seen it happen but
not too often)

SBA

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I am away from home for a few days and don't have the opportunity to check
up the seforim, but today I did see  KSA 147:5 that  ''shoshvinim
ve'anoshim chashuvim holchim likras hakallah"

Presumably 'anoshim chasuvim' includes rabbonim and TCs. - and as we are
supposed to stand for them, maybe that is the souce of standing for the
kallah...?

SBA

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-- "areivim@sba2.com" <areivim@sba2.com> wrote:
<<>>wonder how many other osei mitzva we stand for.

IIRC one should stand for a tzadaka collector. (I have seen it happen
but not too often)>>

Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky, in the piece quoted originally, traces the
minhag to stand by "vayevarech Dovid" to the gaba'ei tzedaka making
their rounds then (al pi "veha'osher vehakavod milfanecha etc.)

When they come into our shul, everyone stays seated and averts their
gaze :-|.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

-- "areivim@sba2.com" <areivim@sba2.com> wrote:

<<I am away from home for a few days and don't have the opportunity to
check
up the seforim, but today I did see  KSA 147:5 that  ''shoshvinim
ve'anoshim chashuvim holchim likras hakallah"

Presumably 'anoshim chasuvim' includes rabbonim and TCs. - and as we
are supposed to stand for them, maybe that is the souce of standing for
thekallah...?>>

I still find it hard to accept that we stand for the TC and rabbonim
who are NOT going likras hakalla!

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

JR -Interesting that this type of supposition/argument in other cases is
dismissed by a simple, they were at that level, we're not.

DB - Of course Kodesh Kodoshim should be assumed to be judged subjectively
by the times. Otherwise the Rambam may as well be completely obsolete,
beacuse there is no way to judge it. RMF may have counted as a Poshut Yid
back then, but that doesn't mean he isn't Kodesh Kodoshim now. And the least
of Leviim back then might be the greatest Gadol HaDor 500 years ago, but it
is hard to think that he would look himself in the mirror, compare himself
to everyone else, and say, 'I am sanctum sanctorum' as RAL proposes the bar
ought to be.

JR -  In any event the shevet based exemption could be simply understood as
a practical and role model approach ( do we really need as many kohanim
as the descendants of Aaron?)
DB - The point is not need for a particular job, the point is the
correctness of application of an exemption which in theory is based on
achievement.



JR - what does the netziv understand as to their activities in non-wartime?
Were they all absentee landlords? Does anyone else take this approach?

DB - What's the difference? You haven't addressed the main point which is
that the Netziv is an open contradiction to the need of every single
exemption being based on looking oneself in the mirror and having some
over-inflated ego.

 JR -" with no concern for the Cheshbonos of Bnei Adam " When I originally
learned this Rambam I was taught this meant that they did not do so because
they got stipends or were even aware of them.

DB - These people aren't learning so they can get stipends, they are getting
stipends so  they can learn. (Any reference to Shitas HaRambam vis-a-vis
getting money while learning is, according to RMF, Atzas Yetzer Hara, and
has no place in this discussion. One simply cannot hope to be Muchtar
B'Kesser Torah and hold like that Rambam today, as per RMF, and to say that
one loses Kodesh Kodoshim status today because he receives money to subsist
on while learning, is, IMHO, vaiter Atzas Yetzer Hara.)

 JR -imho this is apples and oranges - would you group someone who never
married with someone who deferred pirya vrivya due to learning or other
extenuating circumstances?

DB - First of all, well over 50 percent of Charedim do eventully do some
kind of army service. Secondly, what does that have to do with the exemption
of Shevet Levi? If it applies to Mercaz HaRav at age 18, then it applies to
a Charedi at age 35. And, BTW,  if someone is deferring Pirya VRivya for
learning, i.e. relying on Ben Azzai, then of course  the same Ain Yityzro
Misgaber Alav and Nafsho Chashkah BaTorah would apply to a 45 year old just
as it did to Ben Azzai who never married.
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(re-directed from Areivim at the request of the moderators)
 
   
 

article in J-m Post today:
 
==begin quote== 
Rabbi Ovadia: 'Women should stick to cooking,  sewing' 
by Aaron Magid 
July 30, 2007  
____________________________________
        
____________________________________
 
"Women should make hamin and not deal with matters of Torah," the  spiritual 
leader of Shas, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, said in a speech to supporters on  
Saturday night.  
Yosef made the statement in the context of a major Halachic campaign he is  
currently engaged in as to when women should recite the blessing over the  
Shabbat candles.  
Many prominent Ashkenazi rabbis, along with a few Sephardic sources, have  
ruled that women should say the blessing after lighting the candles. However,  
according to Yosef, the blessings should be said before the candles have been  
kindled, similar to other blessings.  
Yosef blasted the opposing view, saying it was based on the opinion of "a few 
 stupid women. A woman's knowledge is only in sewing," he ridiculed. "Women  
should find other jobs and make hamin (cholent) but not deal with  matters of 
Torah."  
In addition, he admonished women for following in the steps of their mothers  
in the order of the recitation of the blessing instead of adhering to his  
opinion.  
"It has to be announced that women should not listen to the voice of their  
mothers or grandmothers not to continue with this mistake," he warned.  
==end quote==
 

for the whole article, see
 
<_http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1185789791242&;pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull_ 
(http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1185789791242&;pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull) >
 
Of course one never knows whether the J-Post is reporting anything  
accurately or fairly, but if ROY really has embarked on this campaign, and if  the 
quotes are accurate, this is very strange.  
 
Women make a bracha /after/ lighting because by making the bracha, they  have 
brought in Shabbos, and now cannot kindle a candle. (On yom tov  they light a 
match, then recite the bracha and then light the candles from  the match.)   
In order to maintain the usual order of bracha first,  mitzva after, they 
close their eyes while reciting the bracha, then open their  eyes and look at the 
candles after saying the bracha.  (They also welcome  the Shabbos queen with a 
sweeping-in gesture of their arms, three times.)
 
I know that I have just said something absolutely elementary and basic to  
everyone on arvm.  But to ROY, all the above is the product of a mistake  
introduced by some woman -- when exactly?  
 
Actually he seems to be saying two different things that are prima facie  
contradictory:  1. we light before the bracha because we are blindly  following 
mistakes made by our grandmothers and
2. we light before the bracha because women have been trying to learn  Torah, 
for which they are totally unsuited, and have misunderstood what they  
learned.  Had women not tried to learn Torah, they never would have made  such a 
mistake!
 
(Is he saying that our GRANDMOTHERS tried to learn Torah and misunderstood  
what they learned?)
 
Anyway, I would be very interested in hearing how all this is going over in  
Israel, in charedi and in Sefardi circles.



--Toby  Katz
=============




************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at 
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
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RTK brings a quote from the Jerusalem post saying:

> Yosef blasted the opposing view, saying it was based on the 
> opinion of "a few stupid women. A woman's knowledge is only 
> in sewing,"

This, by the way, is almost certainly a quote from Rabbi Eliezer in the
Talmud Yerushalmi Sotah perek 3 halacha 4 in the context of answering a
question of a woman on the chet haegel (ie why was it that there was
only on chet, but three types of deaths) - ie really a Torah shebichtav
question, where he refused to answer what appears to be quite a lomdishe
question and rather responded ain chachma shel isha ela b'pilcha and as
a proof text quoted Shmos 35:25.  The quote (ie ain chachma) however is
further brought in our context, ie regarding making brochas over the
shabbas candles, inter alia by the Magen Avraham in Orech Chaim siman
263 si'if 12 (more on this below).  I thought usual translation was of
as spinning/ weaving, rather than sewing, but no matter - the reference
is pretty clear if you know it exists.

 he ridiculed. "Women should find other jobs and 
> make hamin (cholent) but not deal with matters of Torah." 
> In addition, he admonished women for following in the steps 
> of their mothers in the order of the recitation of the 
> blessing instead of adhering to his opinion. 
> "It has to be announced that women should not listen to the 
> voice of their mothers or grandmothers not to continue with 
> this mistake," he warned. 

RTK then writes:

>Women make a bracha /after/ lighting because by making the bracha, they
have brought in Shabbos, and now cannot kindle a candle. (On yom tov
they light a >match, then recite the bracha and then light the candles
from the match.)   In order to maintain the usual order of bracha first,
mitzva after, they close >their eyes while reciting the bracha, then
open their eyes and look at the candles after saying the bracha.  (They
also welcome the Shabbos queen with a >>sweeping-in gesture of their
arms, three times.)

>I know that I have just said something absolutely elementary and basic
to everyone on arvm.  But to ROY, all the above is the product of a
mistake 
>introduced by some woman -- when exactly?  

He is talking about the mother and/or wife of the Drisha (the Magen
Avraham says the mother, but the reference in the introduction to the
Drisha's commentary on Yoreh Deah, talks mostly about Beila, who seems
to be the wife of the Drisha - historians out there anyone?, she seems
to have been a remarkable woman, whoever she was, you should read what
is written in the introduction to the Drisha's commentary on Yoreh Deah
about her).  In any event, what appears to be not disputed is that what
you have described is precisely what this woman held, and which is
quoting approvingly by the Drisha, and appears to be the dominant
halachic position in Ashkenaz and what women (including many Sephardi
women, which is what is irritating ROY) have been doing.

The Magen Avraham after bringing exactly what you said (ie about a
difference in the way you light shabbas and yom tov candles) adds, and
so brings the Drisha in the name of his mother but ain chachma l'isha
etc and the chachamim did not distinguish".  That is, it seems that the
Magen Avraham's problem is with the difference between lighting on
shabbas and yom tov.

However, the idea that you make the bracha after you light on shabbas is
brought by the Rema as the minhag in Ashkenaz in Orech Chaim siman 263
s'if 5 - ie it is an Ashkenazi minhag, and it would seem that the
Mechaber held differently, ie you should make the bracha and then light.
So if you are a pure Mechaber (ie Maran) man, as ROY is, then you would
regard this whole idea of lighting first then making the bracha as
wrong, at least for Sephardim.  However, as RSB has written on this list
before, there is sometimes a significant divergence between the minhagim
as they actually were for the various different Sephardi groupings, and
as the Maran specifies.  This may well have been one of them -
particularly given that it is buttressed by the authority of the Drisha
(and his mother/wife) and the practice in Ashkenaz. 

In general by the way, there is a whole series of problems with making
the bracha after you have completed the act over which the brocha is
made.  The only exception that is categorically agreed to is that of a
ger making his brocha over his tevila, and that is because before he
does the tevila he is not Jewish and hence cannot make the brocha, so
perforce he has to do it after the tevila.  So it is not that surprising
that a view can be held quite strongly that the Ashkenazi order is
wrong, and in fact you can see from the Rema that there is an issue that
he tries to deal with by not getting hana'a from the candles before the
brocha is made.  The only problem with that is this - is the brocha over
the creating of lit candles, or is it over the act of lighting the
candles.  If over the lit candles, then what the Rema says is fine, but
we say "l'chadlik ner shel shabbas" - which might suggest that the key
act is the lighting, not the production of the lit candles, which would
then mean that the act over which the brocha is made (ie the lighting)
has already been completed by the time the brocha is made.  

>Actually he seems to be saying two different things that are prima
facie contradictory:  1. we light before the bracha because we are
blindly following 
>mistakes made by our grandmothers and 2. we light before the bracha
because women have been trying to learn Torah, for which they are
totally unsuited, 
>and have misunderstood what they learned.  Had women not tried to learn
Torah, they never would have made such a mistake!

>(Is he saying that our GRANDMOTHERS tried to learn Torah and
misunderstood what they learned?)

Yup.  At least if you are related the the Falks of Prisha U'Drisha fame,
I would guess (dates anyone?).

>Anyway, I would be very interested in hearing how all this is going
over in Israel, in charedi and in Sefardi circles.

I don't think it is anything new, I think he has been saying the same
thing for years.  Basically it depends on whether you follow ROY on
these kind of issues or not (ie do you follow Maran over minhag or not).
If yes, then you will light the way he says.  If not, and unquestionably
in Ashkenaz they follow the Rema, then it is a non issue.  How one
relates to the Drisha and his family is a different question, but most
women, I would guess, don't have any idea that ROY is lambasting
Ashkenaz and Sephardi minhag for following the psak of a woman. 

>--Toby Katz

Regards

Chana

The Netziv has a well known position that the sinas chinom of the Second 
Temple was the assumption that anybody who either sinned or had a 
different understanding of halacha/hashgofa was labeled as a tzadoki and 
sentenced to death. Thus this intolerance was  religiously motivated and 
difficult to combat. He states this several places in his commentary to 
chumash as well in a teshuva.

My problem is I have not found anybody else who has such an 
understanding. Would appreciate any citations expressing a similar view 
or anyone who expresses approval of this interpretation. I was told that 
R' Moshe Shmuel Shapiro expressed agreement with the view but I have 
nothing in writing.

Daniel Eidensohn

http://www.yctorah.org/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,361
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From: "Eli Turkel" <>
REMT wrote<< (I also contend that the new "halacha" of standing for the
chasan at a wedding -- which is about thirty years old --had its
origin when some adam gadol stood up for a better look, and his
motive was misinterpreted. I don't stand, just to have the pleasure
of responding, when asked why, that chodosh asur min haTorah.  >>

Actually the Kuntres Achron in Taamei Haminhagim (p. 409)
uses that expression (chodosh asur min haTorah) when
viciously attacking the smorgasboard - which he calls 'salvirter tish'.
(Seems it was introduced in Poland in his days - 'chadoshos mikorov ba'u').

I am surprised that in addition to 'Chadash assur' he doesn't mention it
being some sort of minhag akum as well.
(OTOH, that may indeed be what the 'chadash assur' is all about.)

On the topic of 'smorgasboards" (which BH hasn't reached Oz - even,
AFAIK, by the non-frum crowd), I really can't understand how American
frum Jews, who are makpid on separation of the sexes during the chasene,
have no qualms at all about the total mayhem and pushing and shoving of
 men and women to get to that smorgasboard.

I also can make no sense of the fact that the food at the smorgasboard is
far better and definitely more plentiful than what is served at the chasene.

[Maybe the knowledge about a meagre chasene meal is takeh the reason
for 'chotfim vedorsim ve'ochlim kechayos hasodeh, vechol hakodem zachah,
 ad shebizman ma hashulchan ponui mikol. ve'ochlim me'umad - heipach
mima she'omru Chazal...  Veharbeh mehem...belo brocho,
ki harega yakar etzlam, ki betoch kach yachol lachtof vele'echol.
Vegam mibracha achrona yimona atzmoy - ki im lo beirach batechila, heich
yevarech achrov?..."  - lashon haTaamei Haminhagim shom]

>>RYBS was very insistent on standing because a chassan (and kallah) are
similar to a king (queen?). I believe his psak was more than 30 years ago.
R. Zilberstein says to stand based on kabbalistic grounds.
>>

The Be'er Heitev in 62 writes beshem Knesses Hagedola that people
SHOULD stand during the brachos at the chupa, (thus removing any
'chadash' concerns...)

SBA

Is it was preferable to encourage a person to stay in a non-Orthodox day 
school or let them go to public school.

Daniel Eidensohn

With minor changes for transliteration and typos, I received the 
following inquiry:

"A matter of curiosity regarding the 'tefilla shel shaliach tzibur' 
before Musaf on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur:

"In the older machzorim printed in Europe and the US, there is an 
additional tefilla after 'Hee-nneni he'ani me-ma'as.'  In the Machzor 
Rabba that I have, it is titled: 'Tefilla acheret lechazan' and is in 
small letters. This 'tefilla acheret' does not appear in the Rinat 
Yisrael Machzor at all. Perhaps you can find out something about the 
tefilla. When was it written?  By whom? And when?  And why was it 
included/excluded from the machzorim??

Do any lurkers or chaveirim have any pertinent, relevant or real 
information and/or sources?
Thanks in advance.
Noach Witty

A bit of a while ago, I posted about inconsistencies and contradictions
posed by the count of Pesukim at the end of Parashos Yisro and Va'eschanan,
as well as the puzzling nature of Mosad Harav Kook's splitting up the first
Pesukim of the Aseres Hadibros - in both Taam Elyon and Tachton -
differently than the standard texts. Also, recently, there was some
discussion on-list regarding the Mesorah count at the end of Chumashim. A
fellow listmember (I'm not sure if he wants his name googleable) posted a
comment on my blogpost about this a Mareh Makom and summary of a fascinating
(if you're interested in this kind of stuff) HaKsav V'Hakabbalah that deals
with all these issues. It is the last piece in the Sefer, before the
afterword. Pdfs available on request. For more details, see
http://esefer.blogspot.com/2007/05/aseres-hadibros.html and the comments
there.

KT,
MYG

R' Ben Waxman on Areivim (referring to escorting a very pregnant woman to
the hospital on Shabbos):
> This happened to me while I was living in Quiryat Arba. I ran to ask
> Rav Lior and he told me that I have to be actively doing something.
> Since at the time I was in the army, I was able to be the "shomer".


A rav I know is of the opinion that anyone in a hospital unaccompanied by
someone to watch them is in a Safek Sakana, and that one is may (and should)
accompany them.

KT,
MYG 

On the kulot of CI and chumrot of Rav Kook see
http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/shavuot/got.html    (Hebrew)
by R. Neriah Gutal

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Fri, Aug 03, 2007 at 01:19:41AM -0400, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: A rav I know is of the opinion that anyone in a hospital unaccompanied by
: someone to watch them is in a Safek Sakana, and that one is may (and should)
: accompany them.

I think it would depend on the hospital and its nursing staff. Perhaps as
a default position, when you don't know the hospital, you should assume
the worst. But I would not assume every hospital in every country requires
the patient have an advocate in order for things to get done. Personally,
I have had some positive experiences. If ch"v someone needed one of
those hospitals, would he hold that it is assur to accompany them?

The gemara is so maqpid on making sure the patient is psychologically
reassured, I am surprised that alone is insufficient reason to accompany
them.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             "I hear, then I forget; I see, then I remember;
micha@aishdas.org        I do, then I understand." - Confucius
http://www.aishdas.org   "Hearing doesn't compare to seeing." - Mechilta
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "We will do and we will listen." - Israelites

From: "Eli Turkel" <>
What is the origin of the concept that a choson is like a king?
>>

I did a search and found that this is mentioned in Pirkei
deReb Eliezer 16.

SBA

R' Ben Waxman on Areivim (referring to escorting a very pregnant woman 
tothe hospital on Shabbos):
>> This happened to me while I was living in Quiryat Arba. I ran to ask
>> Rav Lior and he told me that I have to be actively doing something.
>> Since at the time I was in the army, I was able to be the "shomer".
>>     
>
>   
See Igros  Moshe OH I #132 page 225

"Nevertheless the halacha is that when we find a woman about to give 
birth who is in danger because she is afraid...If she says that she is 
afraid to go alone even after it has been explained to her that there is 
no reason to be afraid - that makes it a question of pikuach nefesh and 
therefore her hsuband or mother should travel with her. Furthermore if 
it a distant hospital that she is traveling to even if she is not crying 
from the birth pains she can still be accompanied. Because even though 
she is not now in danger  it is possible that on the way there the pain 
will increase until she cries out and then she might be in danger from 
her fear....Furthermore because the issur of riding in the car where it 
is not clear anything extra is done because of the one who accompanies 
her - therefore it should be permitted if she is upset about having to 
go to the hospital even though it won't become a case of danger.



see also  YD IV #45.2 page 266

Daniel Eidensohn

R' Saul Guberman wrote:
<... He says that the midrashim state that the first luchot were
written as recorded in Yitro & the <second as recorded in V'Etchanan.

R' YK brings this down as maybe the Ibn Ezra. He pints out that Rashi
clearly disagrees as Rashi says that the 2 were exactly the same.

R' Nosson Kamenetsky in Making of a Gadol writes that the Chafetz
Chaim very much disagreed with this Netziv and this is one of the
reasons why he didn't send his son to Volohzin.

> "Women should make hamin and not deal with matters of Torah,"
> the spiritual leader of Shas, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, said in a
> speech to supporters on Saturday night. ... In addition, he
> admonished women for following in the steps of their mothers
> in the order of the recitation of the blessing instead of
> adhering to his opinion.

Sounds like a contradiction to me.

If they are to "not deal with matters of Torah," that means they 
should not pay attention to rabbis such as himself. Rather, it would 
be better for them to continue following in the steps of their 
mothers.

Did I miss something? Should they listen to shiurim or to their 
mothers? He can't have it both ways!

Akiva Miller

R' Daniel Eidensohn:
> Is it was preferable to encourage a person to stay in a non-Orthodox
> day
> school or let them go to public school.


I heard in the name of a prominent Rosh Yeshiva that he advised people (who
were involved with Kiruv) that it is better for students to go to public
school than to a certain anti-religious non-orthodox day school. Details
available off-list.

KT,
MYG

Rb TK wrote:

> >>>>>
>Your reasoning is impeccable and your sources unimpeachable.  I wonder  if
>Rav Elyashiv knows about this.

And as someone else pointed out, most of the Gedolim support the 
deferment. Which brings me back to my original question.  How is it 
that there is no tshevua on the subject from one of the acknowledged 
Gedolim? Someone (I'm sorry I can't find the post) pointed out that 
one of the Chief Rabbis of Tel Aviv (?) wrote about the subject. With 
all due respect, why was this subject dealt with someone who, while 
he is certainly a Talmid Hakhaham, is not thought of a being a Gadol Hador?

Ben Waxman 

At 02:25 AM 08/05/2007, you wrote:
>Anyway, I would be very interested in hearing how all this is going over in
>Israel, in charedi and in Sefardi circles.

I asked a friend of mine who lives in EY what is going there about 
this. He wrote:

"I did not hear anything here.  It's "known" that non-friendly people 
listen to his shiur. They then transfer their impressions and 
interpretations to the media. I have heard similar statements, thier 
meaning is more like "do not forget that your primary task is to be a 
mother and housewife. Alas, today it is common that the lady is the 
primary breadwinner ... leaving the house early in the morning.

Also going to too many Shiurim is not always the best for one's family.

I would accept what he said along this line and not getting excited.

BTW His daughter is the dean of one of the frum technological 
colleges for ladies .... ."

I find this last sentence "marvelous" in light of what some have 
asserted ROY said about women! >:-}


Yitzchok Levine 
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I'm catching up on Avodah.
There is a five volume chumash called Keter Yonatan which includes the Targum Yonatan ben Uziel in its entirety,as it appears in Mikraot G'dolot, translated into Hebrew, by R. Yaakov M. Vertheimer. This work was published by the author in 1997.  I've seen it in many shuls here in Israel.
Saul Mashbaum
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On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 23:20:22 -0400
Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il> wrote:

> The Netziv has a well known position that the sinas chinom of the
> Second Temple was the assumption that anybody who either sinned or
> had a different understanding of halacha/hashgofa was labeled as a
> tzadoki and sentenced to death.

The Vilna Gaon in Sefer Even Shlomo (Emunah v'hashgacha) says the same
thing. R' Dovid Castle discusses these sources and other forms of hatred
in his sefer "To Live Among Friends: Laws and Ethics of Everyday
Interactions" (in English).

--Ken

-- 
Ken Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/
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