Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 157

Sat, 21 Jul 2007

• 1. Re: kosher watermelons (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: First class and second class (economy) travel - in theMidbar (Micha Berger)
• 3. mashiach (Newman,Saul Z)
• 4. Ploughing HHB (Yisrael Medad)
• 5. kesuvah (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: First class and second class (economy) travel - in theMidbar (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: kesuvah (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: When was the last korban? (Arie Folger)
• 9. Re: mashiach (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: When was the last korban? (Richard Wolpoe)
• 11. Re: Ploughing HHB (Richard Wolpoe)
• 12. Re: tisha ba-av (Richard Wolpoe)

On Thu, July 19, 2007 8:22 pm, R Aryeh Stein quoted kosherblog.net
giving R' Heineman's opinion:
: Fish, too, may be considered similarly. If, for example, a whole,
: kosher fish has had its head and tail removed in a non-kosher fish
: market, we may trim away the cut edges with a kosher a knife and use
: the fish. (Since scalers can only be used on fish with scales, i.e.
: kosher fish, there are no kashrut concerns about the scaler's use on
: non-kosher fish.)

Swordfish?

Not every fish with scales has qasqeses.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

On Thu, July 19, 2007 6:11 pm, Rich, R Joel wrote:
: [RJR earlier post:]
::> This is meant: For the upright [tzaddikim], the manna came down
::> at the door of their tents;

:: For just them or for their families and dependents as well?

[Me:]
:: Is there any reason not to assume the location of the mon depended on
:: the zekhus of whomever went to collect it (rather than the consumer)?

RJR new:
: Is it clear that an unmarried son couldn't get it for his dad?

I didn't mean to imply he couldn't. Here's where my head was:

Ease of collecting was a reward. Alternatively (same idea, different
perspective): Hashem saved the time for those who would otherwise use
the time more profitably.

Therefore, regardless of who is collecting for who, I would think that
it is simply a manner of who is benefiting from the lesser effort. If
a man sends his son the tzadiq, why shouldn't the tzadiq have less
work? If a tzadiq sends his son the mainstream guy (and doesn't need
him for other work, as that would complicate the equation), why should
the son get reward?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

in case the geula comes this week, see the halacha column in yated. here is
his take on birchos mashiach----
In conclusion, we may recite a total of eight special brachos when Moshiach
arrives, in the following order:
1. When we first hear from a reliable source the good news of Moshiach's
arrival, we will recite Baruch Atah Hashem Elokeinu Melech Ha'olam hatov
vehameiteiv. 
2. When we see the huge throngs of Jews assembled to greet him, which will
no doubt number at least 600,000 people, one recites, "Baruch Atah
Hashem
Elokeinu Melech Ha'olam chacham ha'razim."
3. When one sees the rebuilt Beis Hamikdash or rebuilt shuls or batei
medrash, one recites, "Baruch Atah Hashem Elokeinu Melech Ha'olam
matziv
gevul almana." Theoretically, one might recite this bracha before the
bracha
Chacham ha'razim, if one sees the rebuilt Beis Hamikdash before one sees the
huge throngs.
4. When we actually see Moshiach, we will recite, "Baruch Atah Hashem
Elokeinu Melech Ha'olam shechalak mikevodo lirei'av." 
5. Immediately after reciting this bracha, we will recite the bracha,
"Baruch Atah Hashem Elokeinu Melech Ha'olam shechalak mei'chachmaso
lirei'av." According to some poskim, one may recite these last two
brachos
when aware that Moshiach is nearby, even if one cannot see him.
6. When one actually sees Moshiach, one should recite Shehechiyanu. 
7-8. According to the Lev Chaim, on the anniversary of Moshiach's arrival,
we will again recite Shehechiyanu to commemorate the date, and we will
recite a long bracha mentioning some of the details of the miraculous events
of his arrival. This bracha will close with the words, Baruch Atah Hashem
Go'al Yisroel.
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If I am not mistaken, the old Jewish Encyclopedia surmises that the
ploughing was in prepartion for a new Temple but then things went awry with
the Romans.

-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
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<<Our financial negotiations make the divorce close somewhat supefluous, but
the other elements are still necessary, and nowadays, they gain in
importance,
esp. the part about working, etc.
By the way, the divorce element of the ketubah is still a moral message, and
among Sefardim it is brought up to current standards of living, so that it
loses none of its potency.>>

First - the fact that sefardim put in large amounts in the kesuvah doesn't
mean that it is ever collected. Secular courts dont base their decisions on
the kesuvah.

Second - does anyone base their husband-wife relationship today on the
kesuvah in terms of a wife's earnings? I assume that no one has ransomed his
wife in many years.

In a slightly different area I still hear from rabbis about problems with
women donating to Charity. In most familties I know the woman decides on the
budget rather than the husband. Major purchases are probably mutual. Very
few families have the husband as the sole decisor on major purchases.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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 Here's where my head was:

Ease of collecting was a reward. Alternatively (same idea, different
perspective): Hashem saved the time for those who would otherwise use
the time more profitably.

Therefore, regardless of who is collecting for who, I would think that
it is simply a manner of who is benefiting from the lesser effort. If a
man sends his son the tzadiq, why shouldn't the tzadiq have less work?
If a tzadiq sends his son the mainstream guy (and doesn't need him for
other work, as that would complicate the equation), why should the son
get reward?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

===========================================================

Except that assumedly the Mon landed before the decision as to who would
pick it up needed to be made.  The reason for my interest is lo
bashamayim he - so for example if 2 sets of parents argued over who a
baby belonged to (like by shlomo) would where his piece of mon landed
inform on the beit din's resolution (parallel that eliyahu will be
mgaleh facts according to the maharatz chiyut but not halachot -  even
though the facts will inform on the resolution of the matter by beit
din)

KT
Joel RIch
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On Friday, 20. July 2007 17.08:21 Eli Turkel wrote:
> <<Our financial negotiations make the divorce close somewhat supefluous,
> but the other elements are still necessary, and nowadays, they gain in
> importance,
> esp. the part about working, etc.
> By the way, the divorce element of the ketubah is still a moral message,
> and among Sefardim it is brought up to current standards of living, so that
> it loses none of its potency.>>
>
> Second - does anyone base their husband-wife relationship today on the
> kesuvah in terms of a wife's earnings? I assume that no one has ransomed
> his wife in many years.

As I posted a while ago, it is implicit, in that women earn far more than the 
expected ma'aseh yadayim in the days of Chazal, and thus, many batei din hold 
that the excess over a relatively modest sum is hers to keep anyway.

> In a slightly different area I still hear from rabbis about problems with
> women donating to Charity. In most familties I know the woman decides on
> the budget rather than the husband. Major purchases are probably mutual.
> Very few families have the husband as the sole decisor on major purchases.

Interesting comment, but not germane to this discussion.

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

RRW wrote:
> I think the tragedy is self-explanatory. ?At one time - for a period of 65
> years - the ruins of the Temple still stood. It was STILL a common focal
> point for all Jews - ?and ?one could view the dimensions etc [a limited
> masechss Middos of sort.] ?Plus it functioned asa matzeiva or a Tziyyun for
> the former Mikdsah that stood there

This theory was suggested in a Jewish Action article a number of years ago.

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

3. When one sees the rebuilt Beis Hamikdash or rebuilt shuls or batei 
medrash,  
 
I think I understand the first entry but what exactly does  "rebuilt
shuls or batei 
medrash,  " mean? (IIRC they are rebuilding the churva?)

KT
Joel Rich
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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
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Great Minds think alike!

Let's say derech mashal that we are 1,000 years from now. And let's say "has
v'shalom" that 65 years after the Holocaust the Arabs destroyed Yad Vashem,
too, as part of a ongoing Holocaust denial movement.

You COULD say in 1,000 year why mourn only   bricks and stones, but you
could also realize that it was rubbing salt into a still sore wound.

KT,
RRW




On 7/20/07, Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> RRW wrote:
> > I think the tragedy is self-explanatory. At one time - for a period of
> 65
> > years - the ruins of the Temple still stood. It was STILL a common focal
> > point for all Jews - and one could view the dimensions etc [a limited
> > masechss Middos of sort.] Plus it functioned asa matzeiva or a Tziyyun
> for
> > the former Mikdsah that stood there
>
> This theory was suggested in a Jewish Action article a number of years
> ago.
>
> --
> Arie Folger
> http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
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Could be.  There is a source somewhere that Hadrian was originally friendly
to the Jews and considered re-buidling the Temple at  first but turned  on
the Jews.

The fact ahat something began as one intention and morphed into something
other is not unusual.

KT
RRW

On 7/20/07, Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If I am not mistaken, the old Jewish Encyclopedia surmises that the
> ploughing was in prepartion for a new Temple but then things went awry with
> the Romans.
>
> --
> Yisrael Medad
> Shiloh
> Mobile Post Efraim 44830
> Israel
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>


-- 
Kol Tuv- Best Regards,
Rabbi Richard Wolpoe
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
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Tangential to this see my blog
Blog: Rabbi*Wolpoe*Comment
Post: Why is there no Aveinu Malkeinu on Tisha B'av?
Link:

http://rabbiwolpoecomment.blogspot.com/2007/07/fwd-utj-l-aveinu-malkeinu-on-tisha-bav.html

Also see Avodah archives becasue i posted on this idea about 10 years ago

KT
RRW

On 7/20/07, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some thoughts on tisha ba-av from the book
> "The Lord is Rightwous in All his Ways" (RYBS)
> The introduction is over 100 pages and so I will give a VERY
> short synopsis (with my own additions)
>
> Questions:
> Many things are missing from the Tisha Ba'ac tefila:
> Tachanun, Avinu Malkenu, Titkabel (in the morning), Neilah
> (unlike a taanit tzibur over rain)
> We dont sit on chairs only until noon unlike other dinei aveilut
> that apply the whole day. Nahem only in the afternoon.
> A mourner is prohibited in all work while on Tisha Ba'av only
> work that disturbs ones concentration. One should cry on
> tisha ba'av but there is nothing equivalent for a mourner.
> The kinot do not stress the absence of korbanot and other
> avodah in the Temple unlike musaf of Yom Kippur.
> "Moed" in the Eichah has nothing to do with happiness. How
> can Tisha Ba'av be considered a happy day.
>
> Answer: The essence of Tisha Ba'av is "Sattom Tefillati"
> On Tisha Ba'av we mourn not the destruction of the Temple but rather
> the result that we are distant from Hashem. While between Rosh Hashana
> and Yom Kippur we are close to Hashem on Tisha Ba'av we are at the
> other extreme. Hence, it is not appropriate to add requests like
> Neilah, Tachanun, Avinu Malkenu or Titkabal. RYBS refused to
> say a request for a sick person on Tisha Ba'av. As opposed to RDE
> it is a day far away from approaching G-d with Teshuva. RYBS interpreted
> Moed in the original sense. Tisha Ba'av is an appointed time - for
> destruction and removal from this time. Thus we dont say Tachanun because
> it is a holiday but rather because of our distance from Hashem.
> We mention other tragedies like the crusades since the essence is
> not the Temple but what can happen when G-d is distant.
>
> A mourner is not required from the din to not sit on chairs. Hence the
> requirement on Tisha Ba'av is not because of aveilut which in fact would
> last the whole day and similarly for work. Rather we dont sit on chairs
> because we are banned from Hashem and working would disturb are
> kinot. A mourner's main obligation is "aveilut be-lev". Inward and not
> crying. On Tisha Ba'av the mourning is not natural and so we force
> ourselves
> to cry. Similarly the 3 weeks build up to the highest level slowly as we
> learn intellectually about our distance from G-d. A mourner is emotional
> and begins with the worst and slowly acclimates to the world. Kinot and
> Eichah are central to Tisha Ba'av but not to a mourner because
> we must cause ourselves to feel the loss of the Templw while for a mourner
> it is natural.
>
> After Mincha we begin Nechama. Paradoxically this occurs when the
> fire was set to the Temple. Hence we are comforted that G-d chose
> to destroy wood and stone rather than the nation. In the morning it
> was not clear what the punishment would be. So the afternoon changes
> from stressing our distance from G-d to a more "normal" aveiult of
> other fast days though the 5 "iyunim"  of a taanit tzibur continue
> but not sitting on the floor or titkabel and now we can say nachem.
>
> --
> Eli Turkel
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>


-- 
Kol Tuv- Best Regards,
Rabbi Richard Wolpoe
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
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