Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 144

Tue, 03 Jul 2007

• 1. Re: Treifot question (JRich@Sibson.com)
• 2. Wartime orders (saulweinreb@comcast.net)
• 3. Re: Wartime Orders (Dr. Josh Backon)
• 4. Re: Treifot question (Dr. Josh Backon)
• 5. Wartime Orders (Yisrael Medad)
• 6. Wartime Orders (Dov Kay)
• 7. Re: Wartime Orders (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: Treifot question (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 9. Re: Yir'ass HaShem (Was Re: Yeshivishe Peyos) (A & C Walters)
• 10. Girsa in Avot 1:3 (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Vehoyo einecho ro'oys es Morecho (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: korbonos by mincha gedoyle (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Yir'ass HaShem (Was Re: Yeshivishe Peyos) (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: Tzvei dinim to bitel torah (Micha Berger)

Targum Yehonatan ben Uziel expands on the pasuk (B'midbar 19:3) "Veshachat ota l'fanav"  "Ubadikna btamni sari treifan", that the para aduma was checked for all 18 treifot. However, this is on the face of it against an explicit gemara (Chullin 11a), which says that the para aduma could not possibly be checked for treifot, since it was burnt whole. There is a midrash (cited by the Tosafot in Shabbat) that the ananei hakavod in the midbar had x-ray-like properties, and using them one could look into solid objects. Thus the para adumah described in the Torah could indeed be checked for treifot by means of the ananei kavod, a--------------------4


seems a bit strange unless the annanei hakavod were bderech hateva, why not jsut have navi say this is it?

Ktjoel rich

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MYG writes:

"Once someone is in the army, isn't it pretty easy to get court-martialed for
not obeying orders? And doesn't the army have the power to execute soldiers
who disobey orders? Could that be an argument that disobeying any order is
Safek Pikuach Nefesh?

(Al Achas Kama V'Kama if someone is serving in the military in some country
that is not as civilized as the USA.)"

SW:

I don't think it is a safek that if a soldier truly feels that his life is in danger that he should follow the orders.  The last time that the US military actually executed soldiers for disobedience was I think in the civil war, so I don't think that anyone is actually afraid of execution, even though the Uniformed Code of Military Justice does technically still allow for execution (I think).  However, there are other severe enough deterents nowadays.

The question that I have is where to draw the line.  For example, when I am asked to sign in to a training session on shabbos, I usually find ways to weasel out of it. I have permission from my commanders to go to minyan shabbos morning, and to generally avoid most potential chillul shabbos when I am on reserve duty.  For the most part, when I am on dut, I am treating patients which is usually not a problem, for weekends are only emergency patients anyway.  But what if a commander told me that I have to do weapons training on shabbos?  Would that be mutar because it is a wartime order like I asked before, or maybe one could say that I should try to get out of it like I do with the signing,  I am looking for some ways to categorize these things.

Shaul Weinreb
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>I have a question regarding following orders when one is a soldier 
>at war.  I think that we would all agree that in a battlefield 
>situation one is in a state of pikuash nefesh and should do what is 
>necessary as a soldier.  I doubt there would be much disagreement 
>that a soldier in Iraq is allowed to carry his weapon on shabbos and 
>do what he needs to do for his safety and the safety of the other soldiers.
>
>The question that bothers me is what about in training?  There must 
>be a point where one should not do things during training on shabbos 
>because the environment is not truly a sakkanah.  However, one can 
>also argue that training is a crucial and essential part of fighting 
>a war.  If so, if a soldier decides not to follow orders because it 
>is shabbos, and he doesn't want to carry his weapon (a probable 
>derabbanan) or use his weapon (a probable deoraysah) to what extant 
>can one argue that this endangers the mission and the other soldiers 
>and may be permitted on shabbos?

For starters (before we even discuss the nafka mina between a Jewish 
army vs. a non-Jewish one) run,
don't walk, and get a copy of: Hilchot Tzava published by the yeshiva 
at Shaalavim; the Yalkut Yosef on
Hilchot Shabbat IV [Siman 329 on din milchama b'shabbat; (and for you 
an army doc the Sefer REFUAT
haSHABBAT); and the Nishmat Avraham Orach Chayim.  I think that Rav 
Shaul Yisraeli z"l in one of his
sefarim also dealt with this issue. Even in a Jewish army there are 
halachic differences in what's
permitted in a milchemet reshut and a milchemet mitzva.

There are nuances between someone in a combat unit vs. one in a 
non-combat unit (I think there was an
article in Techumin on this a few years ago). The copious notes of 
the Yalkut Yosef are quite valuable
on the do's and dont's of a number of scenarios.

With regard to training: there would be differences between the 
situation in Israel (where people in basic
training could be suddenly sent to do guard duty in a sensitive area) 
vs. the situation in the USA where
this would never occur.

Without reading the sefarim in depth, it would be foolish to even 
begin to delineate what's muttar and what's
assur. You simply have to read the above sefarim to get a notion of 
what's involved. You also might want
to contact Orthodox military chaplains (e.g. Col. Alan Greenspan) who 
would be more attuned to the
specific problems in the US military.

KT  (or should I say "Dismissed! :-)  )

Josh (that's Major Josh who eventually rose higher in the ranks)

>RYBE did not translate the chumash.  What's published in Mikraot Gedolot
>as "Targum Yonatan" on chumash is certainly nothing to do with RYBE.
>Does anyone know who actually wrote it, or at least how old it is known
>to be?  And how reliable a source is it generally considered to be?

This is  called the Pseudo-Targum. Indeed, it was erroneously attributed to
Yonatan ben Uzziel instead of Targum Yerushalmi. (rashei teivot TAF YUD ).
A good proof that it couldn't have been written by Yonatan ben Uzziel is the
comment in Breishit 21 on the name of the wife of the Muslim prophet Muhammad!!
And on Bamidbar 24:19 where the Turkish city Constantinople is mentioned.

The Targum Yonatan on Neviim **is** considered to be by Yonatan ben Uzziel.

KT

Josh

Regarding the questions posed, I think one way of clearing things up is to
properly define the situation.

If truly the situation is "when one is a soldier at war", then all necessary
activites from active fighting, to patrolling to training for an operation
to preparing supplies for such and their transport, all should fall into the
permitted domain (at least that has been my experience both during the first
Lebanon War and subsequent regular reserve duty as well as special duty
during Operation Storm here in Hebron).

So, when you ask "The question that bothers me is what about in training?
There must be a point where one should not do things during training on
shabbos because the environment is not truly a sakkanah" I need ask: at what
time is this training taking place?  There is a difference when done during
war but not on or near an actual battlefield or whether far away from any
field of operations which, I would presume, that it should not be done on
the Shabbat.

Since I feel that you are talking about actual wartime, in a Jewish army
like in Israel, obviously there would be a dialogue between the "chaplain"
and the relevant officers to judge what is really necessary to be done even
on the Shabbat to keep troops ready or prepared for an immediate operation.
In my experience up near Tzur in 1985, we carried weapons constantly,
day/night. Shabbat/chol/, bathroom/kitchen, even when not "on duty" although
turning lights off/on, storeroom duty and other related activities were not
done on the Shabbat except for the specific units who went out on patrol.

Once you get into it, it becomes easy to understand and follow.

-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
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<<The question that bothers me is what about in training?  There must be a 
point
where one should not do things during training on shabbos because the
environment is not truly a sakkanah.  However, one can also argue that 
training
is a crucial and essential part of fighting a war.  If so, if a soldier 
decides
not to follow orders because it is shabbos, and he doesn't want to carry his
weapon (a probable derabbanan) or use his weapon (a probable deoraysah) to 
what
extant can one argue that this endangers the mission and the other soldiers 
and
may be permitted on shabbos?>>

This question is touched upon in a letter by R. Soloveitchik in "Community, 
Covenant and Commitment", in which the Rav was asked whether the Orthodox 
community should provide chaplains to serve with US forces in Korea.  He 
deals with the lomdus of putting oneself in a position of pikuach nefesh in 
the finest English prose.  It is truly Brisk meets Oxford!  He also 
discusses the risk of court martial for not following orders where pikuach 
nefesh is not applicable and the weight to be given to that risk in 
determining the permissibility of joining the Army in the first instance.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay
Manchester, UK

_________________________________________________________________
Win tickets to the sold out Live Earth concert!  http://liveearth.uk.msn.com

 wrote:
> Once someone is in the army, isn't it pretty easy to get court-martialed
> for not obeying orders? And doesn't the army have the power to execute
> soldiers who disobey orders? Could that be an argument that disobeying any
> order is Safek Pikuach Nefesh?

Is being court martialed a pikuach nefesh? Can you have a hetter for dichui 
Shabbos by getting yourself into the situation where not doing so isn't an 
option, even though pushing off the training until Sunday is theoretically 
possible (if a Shomer Shabbos training division were opened, for example) and 
won't result in any deaths on active duty?

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

On 7/2/07, Dr. Josh Backon <backon@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>
> This is  called the Pseudo-Targum. Indeed, it was erroneously attributed to
> Yonatan ben Uzziel instead of Targum Yerushalmi. (rashei teivot TAF YUD ).

Unless I am mistaken, I believe my chumash (blue Mikraot Gedolot) has both
Targum Yonasan and Targum Yerushalmi, though one of them (I think Targum
Yerushalmi) has only selected phrases.  Is this a question of different
girsa'os in one work, or are they two separate works?

KT,
Michael

It is actually a mefureshe Ramba"n al haTorah (Shemos 20:8) Zochor es yom
hashabos, that an assay is ahavah, and a lav is yirah (and since ahavah is
bigger than yirah, we say asay doyche loy saseh"

> R' Micha Berger wrote:
> > I am not sure I agree with this assumption that ahavah is
> > more associated with an assei, and yir'ah with a lav. For 
> > example, I'm more cautious with my wife's feelings than 
> > with someone I care less about. Is that ahavah or yir'ah?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally - A spam blocker that actually works.
http://www.bluebottle.com

On Areivim Micha Berger wrote:

> For the same reason, many people do not notice the problem with
> "ka'avadim  hameshamshim as haRav al menos shelo leqabeil peras"
> rather than "... lo al menas leqabeil peras". Are we to be like
> servants who serve our Master for the purpose of avoiding getting a
> reward? But that's how it reads! One would have thought the mishnah
> would ask us to serve our Master with no goal of getting a reward.
> Many derashos ensue.

I never noticed the problem because I'd never seen or heard of that
girsa until just a minute ago, when I looked it up in order to check
that I wasn't imagining things.  The girsa I'm familiar with, the
only one I can recall seeing until just now, is "...shelo al menat
lekabel peras".  This is the girsa in the BhT's siddur, Machzor
Livorno, the Vilna Shas, Kehati, and the Ahavas Avot (Breslav).

On the other hand, your girsa is in the Kafih edition of the Rambam's
PHM (with a footnote that the Vilna edition differs), and also the
versions at http://tinyurl.com/2oxn3m, http://tinyurl.com/35ytr9,
and http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/b/h/h49.htm.   And I see that Rabbenu
Yonah prefers your girsa, and refers to it as "girsat hasefarim".

Dayan LY Raskin of London, in his commentary on the BhT's siddur,
notes the existence of the other girsa, and quotes the Maharash of
Lubavitch (Hemshech "Vekacha" 5637, end of #15): "that is, it's not
enough that he works without the motive of a reward, but that he
doesn't want to be rewarded at all".  He then quotes the LR's
Biurim Lepirkei Avot (page 21) that this sort of avodah is only
applicable to special individuals, and therefore in a siddur which
is for everybody the other girsa is more appropriate.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Wed, June 27, 2007 2:22 pm, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: R' SBA wrote:
:> But learning Rashi this week on "Ko'eis ye'omar leYaakov" [23:23],
:> he quotes it (from Yeshaya 30:20) and it clearly refers to HKBH.
:> So now I ask, is it right to use this for a bosor vedam?

Given the previous pasuq talking about Y-m, the comparison may be
between the BHMQ and a picture of one's rebbe, both being a reminder
of Kavod Hashem. To my mind (even if someone hadn't already cited the
gemara) that would place it well within the realm of appropriate.

: There is a long tradition of taking Pesukim out of context to make a
: point.
: This is a good example.

And a good "game", finding intentionally misused quotes turned into
pro-Torah slogans (which is broader than just pesuqim). Here are a
couple of examples from Avodah perennials:

Daas Torah

Chadash assur min haTorah

What about TIDE? Does the chevrah think RSRH thought his take was
peshat in the mishnah, or a slogan? (I'm leaning toward "peshat".)

Anyone want to join?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, June 22, 2007 11:53 am, Zev Sero wrote:
: [RAM] kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
:> I'd think
:> this to be among the gezeros that still apply even when the reasons
:> no longer hold. I.e., that we will wait the full half-hour in 3BHMK,
:> even on EP/ES.

: Why would a future Sanhedrin, with the full power to repeal obsolete
: gezerot, refrain from doing so?

Because I think minhag avoseihem beyadeihem would mean that a future
Sanhedrin would only repeal gezeiros for which there is motivation to
repeal. A lack of motivation to persist would be insufficient.

I am saying this because to me it feels like it ties back to our
discussion of the Rambam, shemittah and minhag ta'us. A minhag whose
motivation is proven false is not a ta'us, only a minhag that is
proven to be halachically problematic.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

I wrote:
:> I am not sure I agree with this assumption that ahavah is
:> more associated with an assei, and yir'ah with a lav. For
:> example, I'm more cautious with my wife's feelings than
:> with someone I care less about. Is that ahavah or yir'ah?

On Wed, June 27, 2007 1:50 pm, RAM <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
: It seems generally accepted that to translate yir'ah as "fear" is
: simply wrong. Many prefer to translate it as "awe", but my feeling is
: that I don't use that word often enough to have a good handle on what
: it means. Some have suggested "respect", which I like.

To which, on Thu, June 28, 2007 8:12 pm, R' Zvi Lampel wrote:
: Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l advocated that "yir'eh," from the same shoresh
: that denotes "seeing," means "awareness," so that "yir'ass HaShem" is
: the intense awareness of Hashem's presence....

In Be'iqvos haYir'ah, which I already pointed everyone to, RAEK also
links yir'ah to re'iyah. First on the semantics, but also based on
"vayar Yisrael es haYad haGedolah .. varyi'ru ha'am es Hashem ..."
Re'iyah leads to yir'ah.

Based on his words and the Ramchal's (referring to my aforementioned
blog entry), I defined yir'ah as "awareness of the importance and
magnitude". Which is something that leads to fear or awe. It also
leads to respect, particularly if you think of kavod as being a from
/kbd/ (weight or mass). But all three are consequences, not yir'ah
itself.

On Mon, July 2, 2007 4:08 pm, A & C Walters commented on my email:
: It is actually a mefureshe Ramba"n al haTorah (Shemos 20:8) Zochor es
: yom hashabos, that an assay is ahavah, and a lav is yirah (and since
: ahavah is bigger than yirah, we say asay doyche loy saseh"

This is a different plane of conversation. I am saying that misevara,
I can see how ahavah could motivate care in lavin. Furthermore, RAEK's
model of yir'ah would have ahavah motivate yir'ah! It is the love you
have for her daughter that makes you aware (and somewhat nervous) of
the gravitas of her wedding in a way that is not true for your
friend's daughter's wedding.

It also informs the joy. As RAEK continues, "vayir'u ha'am es
Hashem..." flows (via emunah) directly into "Az Yashir". You are more
happy at your own daughter's wedding because the greater loves
generates greater yir'ah -- in your own life, the event is "bigger".

On Wed, June 27, 2007 5:07 pm, R Daniel Israel wrote:
: But this, perhaps, still begs the question.  The way you are
: describing it, yiras HaShem still seems to be associated with a
: situation which may bring onesh.  If I step over the line, he may
: punish me.  With one's wife that shouldn't be the case.

MY distinguishes between yir'as ha'onesh and "yir'ah" when used as an
ideal without any modifier. RAEK calls it kefirah to confuse the
knock-kneed klapping of al cheit, hunched over and shaking, with true
yir'ah. That's just a preliminary state, avoiding sin due to fear of
onesh.

In MY the Ramchal says that true yir'ah comes in two parts: yir'as
haRomemus (awe of Hashem's greatness) and yir'as hacheit. Yir'as
hacheit, of the sin itself, of simply being so in love with His Will
that one is loathe to do otherwise, is far beyond worrying about
personal consequence and onesh.

That is like my wanting to avoid offending my wife -- ahavah causing
yir'ah, with no element (hopefully <g>) of yir'as ha'onesh.

I would say that yir'ah vs ahavah is push from status quo vs pull to
being ever closer. Thus it's sort of like "sur meira" vs. "asei tov"
-- which is close but not the same to lav vs asei.

However, (despite my "vs") RAEK writes that the two aren't in
opposition -- ahavah and yir'ah work together and build each other.
And so, I am left with one open question, fitting RAEK together with
the Ramban that RAW cites. If ahavah motivates yir'ah, then it's
really hard to say one motivates shemiras lav and the other motivates
qiyum asei.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, June 20, 2007 3:47 pm, A & C Walters wrote:
: Reb Boruch Ber ztvkl"a ...
:    also brings the Reb Chaim tzvkl"a that Reb Chaim was asked during
: the war if he could work in an office to avoid the draft, even though
: it would require writing on shabbos. Reb Chaim mattird because pekuach
: nefesh is docheh shabbos. A second person asked if he could go to
: university to avoid the draft. Reb Chaim paskened that yehareg ve'al
: yovo (it's minus).

R' Shimon Schwab asked Reb Borukh Ber if he was supposed to go to
yeshiva full time, or follow the TIDE of his mesorah. Reb Borukh Ber
replied (copied after his comments on the mishnah about teaching your
son a parnasah) that TIDE was a hora'as sha'ah.

I heard a similar story about R' Elchanan Wasserman. The threat was
the approaching German occupation, the job was to work in the US
embassy and the University was YU and RIETS. REW was not a fan of the
Goldener Medinah nor of TuM. Here is what he wrote R' Elchanan
Hertzman (a talmid of the Mir who eventually did get to NY):
> I received your letter, but unfortunately there is nothing I can do.
> The yeshivos in America which can bring talmidim from overseas are
> the yeshivah of Dr. Revel (YU) and [HTC in Chicago]. However, both
> are places of spiritual danger because they are run in a spirit of
> disloyalty to the Torah. Therefore, of what benefit would it be to
> escape [Europe] from physical danger to spiritual danger.

But as RAWalters writes, that's not about bitul Torah, that's about a
perceived threat of kefirah.

: However, to learn secular subjects, not bekevius, by oneself is mutar
: (as per the Ram"o YD 246)

Unsurprising, since this was the mehalekh of the Gra, the CI, talmidim
in Slabodka, etc... As already discussed on a thread that seems to
have just evaporated two weeks ago.

:> ... my rav ... does glance at the NY Times, probably in the room
:> the Gra used to study math, probably because he holds there is
:> to'eles  in being an informed person, or possibly because he could
:> not otherwise distract
:> himself from having hirhurim of Torah in an inappropriate place.)

FWIW, the bit about studying math in the bathroom has to be a legend.
Outhouses have a nauseating smell and no lighting. You don't sit there
and read. It's anachronistic, a mental image that is only plausible
after indoor plumbing.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter



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