Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 143

Sun, 01 Jul 2007

• 1. Re: Yeshivishe Peyos (Akiva Blum)
• 2. Re: Gezeros in the BHMK (Zev Sero)
• 3. Kos Shel Beracha (Lawrence Teitelman)
• 4. Re: Yeshivishe Peyos (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 5. Re: Yeshivishe Peyos (Doron Beckerman)
• 6. Re: Gezeros in the BHMK (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 7. Wartime Orders (saulweinreb@comcast.net)
• 8. Re: Wartime Orders (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 9. Yir'ass HaShem (Was Re: Yeshivishe Peyos) (Zvi Lampel)
• 10. Gezeros in the BHMK (Dov Kay)
• 11. Re: Gezeros in the BHMK (David E Cohen)
• 12. Treifot question (saul mashbaum)
• 13. Re: Treifot question (Zev Sero)

Sefer Orchos Yosher by RC Kanievsky p.20:

".. And also about payos that they put behind their ears, Maran [the CI] was not pleased, and said that this looks like they are embaressed from the mitzva, and one shouldn't do it, and in chutz la'aretz they were afraid of the goyim who would mock us (even though anyway they mock), but here in EY that BH the generation has improved much amongst the bnei torah, there is no reason to degrade this.." AKL.
 

Simon Montagu wrote:
> Zev Sero wrote:
>> Bimchilas kevodo, that makes no sense.  The half-hour was to see the
>> sun (or its shadow) move noticeably from its noon position.  The sun
>> moves at exactly the same rate regardless of the day's length.  If on
>> 21-Jun the shadow reaches a certain point on the BHMK wall at exactly
>> 30 minutes past noon, then on 21-Dec it will also reach that point at
>> exactly 30 minutes past noon, and not a moment earlier.

> I'm not sure that the seifa follows from the reisha. Isn't the "equation 
> of time" also a factor here?

No.  The equation of time tells you when noon is.  We're talking about
half an hour *after* that time.  If you're determining noon directly
from the sun, then you don't need to know about the equation of time.

(Except according to RMF, who holds that the halachic chatzot is the
average noon, not the noon of that particular day, i.e. (before allowing
for standard time) chatzot is at exactly 12:00 every day. According to
him you can't use the sun, or if you do then you need the equation of
time to tell you how far the real sun is from the "average" sun.)

R' Akiva Miller:
<< As far as I can imagine, there is no mitzva which -- on a D'Oraisa 
level -- requires us to say certain words over a cup of wine. Wine is 
used in certain korbanos, but so is water, grain, fruit, fowl, and 
many other items. The idea of linking a speech to a kos seems new to 
me. <SNIP> What do others think? Am I totally off base, or what? >>

MYG:
<<As per a shiur I heard tonight on our local radio station, Tosfos (Pesachim
106a, s.v. Zochreihu, at the end) hold that it's D'oyraisa. Apparently
Tosfos in other places says this as well, but this was the only Mareh Makom I caught.>>

See also Nazir 4, Rashi d"h Veharei and Tos. d"h Mai Hi.

I wrote that
> "Yir'as HaShem" is not fear of HaShem Himself, but that it
> refers to a fear of *hurting His feelings* (kavyachol). ...
> Yirah is my fear of stepping over the line and doing something
> that would offend Him.

R' Daniel Israel responded
> The way you are describing it, yiras HaShem still seems to be
> associated with a situation which may bring onesh.  If I step
> over the line, he may punish me.

Yes, indeed, it can be seen both ways. The problem with this 
discussion is that I blundered into the imprecise term "yirah". I 
should have been more careful to distinguish "yiras ha-chet" (which I 
was focusing on) from "yiras ha-onesh" (which RDI focused on).

So perhaps the next question should be: Is "yiras HaShem" comparable 
to "yiras ha-chet", or is it comparable to "yiras ha-onesh", or 
perhaps it is something else entirely?

Akiva Miller

Regarding the Yirah/Ahavah and Assei/Lavin, R' Yosef Engel says that
generally speaking Asei Docheh Lo Saaseh because Ahavas Hashem should
generally be more of our focus in our service of Hashem than Yirah (is this
a Ramban Al HaTorah perhaps?) but Ain Assei Docheh Lo Saaseh SheBaMikdash
because of Mora Mikdash - there the Yir'ah overrides the Ahavah. (That part
is  R' Yosef Engel).

Also related to this is the fact that after the Akeidah Hashem tells Avraham
that now He knows that Avraham is a 'Yarei Elokim', since he was willing to
sacrifice his son. Nobody would ever sacrifice my son out of fear of
consequences. I believe that the Ksav V'Kabbalah (I might be wrong about
that source) there explains that the type of Yirah referred to there is the
Yirah of denting the relationship.
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RZSero writes:

<"For that matter, *can* there be gezerot in the BHMK? After 
all, "ein shevut bamikdash"; or are we distinguishing "shevut" which 
refers only to Shabbat, from general gezerot?>

     The first mishna in Shas tells us that hekteir chalavim 
v'eivarim, though their time for hakrava min haTorah is all night, 
were to be offered by chatzos.

      But in fact, even as far as Shabbos prohibitions are concerned, 
there are exceptions to the rule of ein sh'vus bamikdash.  See 
Tosafos in Shabbos 123b, s.v. "Lo," in explanation of the mishna in 
M'nachos 96a that arranging and removing the kanim for the lechem 
hapanim on the shulchan were prohibited on Shabbos.

EMT

I have a question regarding following orders when one is a soldier at war.  I think that we would all agree that in a battlefield situation one is in a state of pikuash nefesh and should do what is necessary as a soldier.  I doubt there would be much disagreement that a soldier in Iraq is allowed to carry his weapon on shabbos and do what he needs to do for his safety and the safety of the other soldiers.

The question that bothers me is what about in training?  There must be a point where one should not do things during training on shabbos because the environment is not truly a sakkanah.  However, one can also argue that training is a crucial and essential part of fighting a war.  If so, if a soldier decides not to follow orders because it is shabbos, and he doesn't want to carry his weapon (a probable derabbanan) or use his weapon (a probable deoraysah) to what extant can one argue that this endangers the mission and the other soldiers and may be permitted on shabbos?

One can also argue that if he doesn't want to train, he could easily get out of the military, which is not mandatory, at least in the US.  However, if one can choose to be a firefighter, because halachah recognizes that sonme people must choose dangerous professions, why couldn't some people also choose to join the military for the same reason?  A doctor, once he is a doctor, must now save lives on shabbos even though he chose to join.   Why would this be any different?

How does one approach finding the line between what's necessary and what's not?

Just wanted to hear some ideas from the Avodah members.  For those of you that don't know, I happen to be in the US military as a physician for the US Army Reserves (n addition to my private practice).  I am not asking avodah for a psak, just to hear how some of you might handle this issue.

Shaul Weinreb
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R' Saul Weinreb:

The question that bothers me is what about in training?  There must be a
point where one should not do things during training on shabbos because the
environment is not truly a sakkanah.  However, one can also argue that
training is a crucial and essential part of fighting a war.  If so, if a
soldier decides not to follow orders because it is shabbos, and he doesn't
want to carry his weapon (a probable derabbanan) or use his weapon (a
probable deoraysah) to what extant can one argue that this endangers the
mission and the other soldiers and may be permitted on shabbos?

 

 

 

Once someone is in the army, isn't it pretty easy to get court-martialed for
not obeying orders? And doesn't the army have the power to execute soldiers
who disobey orders? Could that be an argument that disobeying any order is
Safek Pikuach Nefesh?

(Al Achas Kama V'Kama if someone is serving in the military in some country
that is not as civilized as the USA.)

 

KT,

MYG

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R' Micha Berger wrote: 
> I am not sure I agree with this assumption that ahavah is 
> more associated with an assei, and yir'ah with a lav. For 
> example, I'm more cautious with my wife's feelings than 
> with someone I care less about. Is that ahavah or yir'ah? 

R' Akiva Miller wrote:

>It seems generally accepted that to translate yir'ah as "fear" is 
simply wrong. Many prefer to translate it as "awe", but my feeling is 
that I don't use that word often enough to have a good handle on what 
it means. Some have suggested "respect", which I like. 

But for the current discussion, I'd like to quote someone (sorry I've 
forgotten who) who said that "Yir'as HaShem" is not fear of HaShem 
Himself, but that it refers to a fear of *hurting His feelings* 
(kavyachol). 

According to this idea, I would think that yir'ah is most certainly 
associated with lavin. Yirah is my fear of stepping over the line and 
doing something that would offend Him.<

============

Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l advocated that "yir'eh," from the same shoresh that denotes "seeing," means "awareness," so that "yir'ass HaShem" is the intense awareness of Hashem's presence. This works very well, and would influence one to fulfill what he knows he ought to do, yet perhaps be more utilized when someone is tempted to do something he wouldn't if he truly felt that "the King is watching."

Zvi Lampel
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>Then there is the question whether this half-an-hour is measured with 
>sha'os z'maniyos or sha'os shavos.  The Ohr Meir (by R. Meir Posen of 
>London) cites R. Hanoch Ehrentreu of Munich as paskening that it is a fixed 
>30 minutes, while my Rav paskened that it is a variable 30 minutes, ben 
>l'kula ben l'chumra.

>>>Bimchilas kevodo, that makes no sense.  The half-hour was to see the
>>>sun (or its shadow) move noticeably from its noon position.  The sun
>>>moves at exactly the same rate regardless of the day's length.  If on
>>>21-Jun the shadow reaches a certain point on the BHMK wall at exactly
>>>30 minutes past noon, then on 21-Dec it will also reach that point at
>>>exactly 30 minutes past noon, and not a moment earlier.

Astronomy is not my strong point, but I find it useful to compare the wall 
used in the BHMK to measure the 1/2 hour to a sundial.  It seems to me that 
the hour markings shown on a sundial do not denote fixed 60min hours, but 
seasonal hours.  In other words, the first shadow of the day will begin to 
appear at sunrise at the point on the sundial denoted by the 6:00am marking 
and the last shadow will vanish at sunset at the point on the sundial 
denoted by the 6:00pm marking.  Obviously, the real time which elapses 
between the "6:00am" and "6:00pm" will fluctuate throughout the year.  
Therefore, if we put a mark on the sundial to denote 12:30pm at the equinox, 
the time elapsing from noon until the sun shadow reaches that mark in the 
middle of summer will be longer than a fixed 30 minutes.  So to in the BHMK.

It seems from the Gemara in Yoma 28b, which discusses this topic, that the 
1/2 hour added from noon in the BHMK was based purely on observation of the 
shadow which appeared on the sloped walls, which justifies the p'sak I 
received from from the Rosh Kollel in Melbourne.

I assume that Dayan Ehrentreu's sevara was that the time added to avoid 
error in bringing the tamid too early should logically be constant, as with 
the 1/2 hour prohibition on doing melacha before bedikas chometz, KS, etc.  
However, I don't think that this is consistent with the sugya in Yoma.

I should point out that I have never actually seen a sundial in use and all 
this is based on my understanding of how it should work (isn't this typical 
of much on Avodah/Areivim?!).  Please let me know where I have gone wrong.  
After all I now live in England, where the sun seldom shines, but I do 
remember the sun from my youth in Australia!

On your more fundamental question as to whether the added 1/2 hour in the 
BHMK was a gezera, its seems from the sugya in Yoma that it was not a formal 
gezera but merely a precaution, but I have not had a chance to see what the 
Rishonim say about it.

A gut Erev Shabbos
Dov Kay
Manchester, UK

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R' Zev Sero wrote:
> The half-hour was to see the sun (or its shadow) move noticeably
> from its noon position.  The sun moves at exactly the same rate
> regardless of the day's length.  If on 21-Jun the shadow reaches
> a certain point on the BHMK wall at exactly 30 minutes past noon,
> then on 21-Dec it will also reach that point at exactly 30 minutes
> past noon, and not a moment earlier.

I agree that the sun moves exactly the same rate regardless of the day's
length.  However, based on my limited understanding (and I would appreciate
a correction from anybody who understands this better), I do not share RZS's
conclusion.

If one were to stick a pole in the ground, the shadow of the TOP of the pole
(or any other given point on it) would, indeed, move the same distance in
the 30 minutes following noon on both 21-Jun and 21-Dec.  However, the sun's
path is closer to the horizon (further south) on 21-Dec than it is on
21-Jun, so the shadow is longer.  Thus, there is less angular motion in
these 30 minutes on 21-Dec than there is on 21-Jun.

What we are really concerned with here is the projection of the shadow to
the east, since we're interested in knowing when it will move past the thick
bottom of the wall of the Beis HaMikdash.  If my understanding is correct,
this will happen SOONER on 21-Jun than it will on 21=Dec.

Hence, the most logical thing seems not only not to use "sha`os zemaniyos,"
but to use the opposite!

--D.C.

RJRich asked:
>Can current x-ray, MRI, PET technology provide clear enough data to check a cow's lungs for kashrut?

The following is from Maayana Shel Torah, parshat Chukat
Targum Yehonatan ben Uziel expands on the pasuk (B'midbar 19:3) "Veshachat ota l'fanav"  "Ubadikna btamni sari treifan", that the para aduma was checked for all 18 treifot. However, this is on the face of it against an explicit gemara (Chullin 11a), which says that the para aduma could not possibly be checked for treifot, since it was burnt whole. 
There is a midrash (cited by the Tosafot in Shabbat) that the ananei hakavod in the midbar had x-ray-like properties, and using them one could look into solid objects. Thus the para adumah described in the Torah could indeed be checked for treifot by means of the ananei kavod, as the Targum Yehonatan says. The gemara's statement  refers to all susequent parot adumot, which indeed, in the absence of  the x-ray properties of the ananei hakavod, could not be checked for treifot. 
Saul Mashbaum 
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saul mashbaum wrote:
> Targum Yehonatan ben Uziel expands on the pasuk (B'midbar 19:3)

RYBE did not translate the chumash.  What's published in Mikraot Gedolot
as "Targum Yonatan" on chumash is certainly nothing to do with RYBE.
Does anyone know who actually wrote it, or at least how old it is known
to be?  And how reliable a source is it generally considered to be?


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas


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