Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 126

Tue, 29 May 2007

• 1. Re: yishuv EY (SBA)
• 2. Re: yishuv EY (Mike Miller)
• 3. Re: yishuv EY (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 4. Re: [Areivim] shelo osani ... (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: shelo osani ... (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: R' Menachem Mendel Mishklov (Gil Student)
• 7. Gr"a and the 3 shevu'ot (SBA)
• 8. Re: shemitta (SBA)
• 9. Re: Gr"a and the 3 shevu'ot (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 10. Re: yishuv EY (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 11. Ashkenazic Pronunciation of "HaShem" (ramiller500@aol.com)
• 12. R' Unna on Kol Isha (Chaim G Steinmetz)
• 13. Re: (no subject) (SBA)
• 14. Re: har habayit (Daniel Israel)
• 15. Re: yishuv EY (Daniel Israel)
• 16. Re: shemitta (Daniel Israel)
• 17. Makhkemah (Yisrael Medad)

From: "Mike Miller" <>
 SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:
> The VM here (and elsewhere) also discusses (amidst some pilpul on the
> views of the Avnei Nezer) the words of Rav Zeira (Brochos 57) who said 
> that
> he would not move to EY until he is shown a sign from heaven (via a dream)
> that he is free of sin.

> >>Try R. Tzvi Yehuda Kook for a different perspective.

> Huh? He has sources saying that baalei aveireh SHOULD be oleh to EY?
----------------


>>

Generally, of course not. But in this case - according to R' Zeira and all
the poskim quoted in VM - a baal aveira is not doing any mitzva by going to 
EY.

Aderaba, as they mention: 'vatovou vetetamu es artzi'.

>>Should one who knows he may not be able to keep shabbos day perfectly
not make kiddush at night?

Hopefully he uses yayin mevushal...

Maybe your question should be:
"Should (or can) one who knows he may not be able to keep shabbos day
perfectly - be motzi others with kiddush at night?"

>>I don't know how many baalei aveira (in the sense that they are
willing and knowingly over aveiros with no attempts to improve
themselves) follow R' Kook, or any Rav.

I was of course not referring to followers of R Kook - and neither is the
VM.  The discussion is about mechalelei shabbos and ochlei nevelos.
(Although the sefer Charedim refers to much lesser aveiros - as I mentioned 
in my
earlier post.)

 >>>OTOH, if is someone who is
nichshal, even regularly, but tries to work on it, or holds "omer
mutar" -- can such a person really be called a baal aveirah?

I am not a posek. But forget about such lomdus.  The discussion is/was
re the early zionists many of whom were from erlich homes and turned
into chotim umachtiim with their only mitzva being:
'lihyos am chofshi be'artzeinu'.

SBA

On 5/29/07, SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:
> >>>OTOH, if is someone who is
> nichshal, even regularly, but tries to work on it, or holds "omer
> mutar" -- can such a person really be called a baal aveirah?
>
> I am not a posek. But forget about such lomdus.  The discussion is/was
> re the early zionists many of whom were from erlich homes and turned
> into chotim umachtiim with their only mitzva being:
> 'lihyos am chofshi be'artzeinu'.

I was referring to those contemplating moving to EY these days,
specifically, those who would look towards Torah for an opinion.

-- Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh (although London for the next two days)

On 5/27/07, SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:
> From: Eli Turkel
>
> SBA:
> For a start you could try studying the Vayoel Moshe, 'Maamar Yishuv EY'
> where it is thoroughly discussed and explained (in just under 200 pages)
> quoting 100s of sources from Chazal, Rishonim and Achronim.>>
> ---
>
> In spite of SBA, Satmar is not mainstream psak.
> >>
>
> Mainstream, shmainstream, looking inside the Vayoel Moshe
> (pages 236-242) it is quite obvious that this has nothing to do with the
> Rebbe's personal psak.
>
> Amongst others it cites the Ramban (one of the main sources for of Mitzvas
> Yishuv EY bizman hazeh) on 'Vatitma Haaretz" (end of Parshas Achrei) and in
> Parshas Vayera on 'Vaneida osom', that sinning in EY is far, far worse than
> doing so in Chu'L.
>
The fact that sinning in EY is worse than sinning in Chu"l does not
necessarily mean that if one will sin at all one shouldn't make Aliyah.
Rav Leff writes: (I sent a link to this essay before, but since it's long,
I am now sending a short section.)

"  Another category of "difficulty" must be mentioned. The learned and G-d
fearing individual knows that Eretz Yisroel is the "palace of the King." A
higher, more exacting standard of behavior is demanded here. One might
reason that he should not introduce himself into a situation that may
demand more of him spiritually than he can deliver.  He may therefore opt
to remain in chutz laAretz rather than to abuse the sanctity of the Land.
(Such logic might have validity for a Jew absolutely uninterested in Torah
and mitzvos. In chutz laAretz, his transgressions would be less
devastating. On the other hand, for such a person, settling in Eretz
Yisroel might be the very thing that would provide a positive influence
and move him to teshuva.)

   By the above line of reasoning, all Torah study should cease. The more
one learns, after all, the more is demanded of him. The higher his level,
the more strictly is he judged. Should he not therefore opt to learn as
little as possible so as not to magnify his failings and avoid abusing the
sanctity of the Torah?  The fallacy here is that we are required by the
Torah constantly to elevate ourselves, to accept added responsibility.
The Torah we possess will aid us in accommodating ourselves to our raised
level. Likewise the merit and kedusha of Eretz Yisroel will elevate us,
actually aiding us to live properly in the Kingbs palace.  Furthermore, if
we are in danger of transgressing despite Torah learning and Eretz
Yisroel, how much lower would we fall without their saving powers.  (See
Michtav MeEliyahu, vol. II, pp. 54 - 55)"

KT,
Michael

On 5/27/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>      (E-lokai Neshamah and E-lokai Netzor don't have
> the petitioner doing anything, so the issue doesn't arise.)
"Kol z'man shehaneshama bikirbi, modeh ani lefanecha..."

> I would say the same about "Hamaqom yenakheim eskhem/eskha/eskhen/osakh".
> Although there you get into questions of whether the soul of the niftar
> is among those being comforted, which would influence the conjugation.

Why eskha and not oskha?  Is eskha even a word?

Are there sources that say that the soul of the niftar is being comforted?
I'd be interested to see them.

> Speaking personally, I like the idea of reconjugation because it
> promotes thinking about peirush hamilim.
Agreed.

KT,
Michael

On Tue, May 29, 2007 7:18 am, mkopinsky@gmail.com wrote:
: Why eskha and not oskha?  Is eskha even a word?

No, it's a typo.

: Are there sources that say that the soul of the niftar is being
: comforted?
: I'd be interested to see them.

I do not recall. It was an idea that I picked up on a previous
iteration on Avodah. Perhaps the person who posted it could be
troubled to repeat his sources.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

FWIW, I wrote a review of the book on my blog:
http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/08/new-history-for-religious-zionism.html


Gil Student,          Yashar Books
Subscribe to "Sefer Ha-Hayim - Books for Life" Newsletter:
news, ideas, insights and special offers from Yashar Books
http://www.yasharbooks.com/Sub.html
mailto:Gil@YasharBooks.com

From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <>
.."The Return to Jerusalem: The renewal of the Jewish Settlements in Eretz 
Yisrael during the 19th century", by Prof. Aryeh Morgenstern...The book 
connects between 2 threads, as apparently the Gr"a explained that the 3 
shevu'ot refer only to Beit HaMikdash itself, but they can (and should) 
rebuild Israel and prepare what is needed for the Beit HaMikdash.
>>

Where does the Gra say this?

SBA 

From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>

, A & C Walters  wrote:
> ..., let's not forget shitas Tos; (beshem R' Chaim) that because of the
> difficulties of shmitta etc, one is potur from yishuv E"Y.
-
From: "Moshe Feldman" <>
Your reliance on R. Chaim Cohen is misplaced.  First, the Pischei
Tshuva to Even HaEzer 75:3 cites the Maharit that these words were
written by a talmid to'eh.

SBA: It is no question that RCC would ban current baalei aveireh
from making aliya.
How do you think he would have ruled for those who asked about
making aliyah - but plan to rely on the Hetter Mechirah?<<

=========

No sooner had I written the above and RDB gave us the answer
(if anyone had any doubts)...

From: "Doron Beckerman" <beck072@gmail.com>
The Kol Bo (Simman 127) quotes the Maharam MeRotenburg:
"The primary Mitzvah of going to EY, is... only if he will be Parush from
here on, and he will be careful of all types of sins and fulfill all the
Mitzvos HaTeluyos BaAretz, for if he sins he will be punished more than if
he sinned in Chu"l,....

Shla"h (Shaar Haosiyos 56a) - "One year after I came to Yerushalayim... was
the Shemitta year... .. because of the great duress... I deliberated with
myself and said, I am more obligated to keep it.. for Hashem will tell me, 
why have you come from a place where you are exempt to a place where
 you are obligated, ...you will neglect this Mitzvah? Why have you
come to defile My Land?... And then I found the same in Sefer Charedim...
that all those who come to live in EY must be very careful about Shemittah
and all the Mitzvos HaTeluyos BaAretz, just as the Amoraim were careful to
keep them ...so that the Mitzvah of dwelling in
EY not come with an Aveirah of negating the Mitzvos HaTeluyos Bah, and the
loss will outweigh the gain."

Subject: Gr"a and the 3 shevu'ot


> From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <>
 as apparently the Gr"a explained that the 3
> shevu'ot refer only to Beit HaMikdash itself, but they can (and should) 
> rebuild Israel and prepare what is needed for the Beit HaMikdash.


> Where does the Gra say this?
>
> SBA

The GR"A discusses this in his peirush on Shir HaShirim.

For a far more in depth discussion on the GR"A's view of Eretz Yisrael, 
including references to some of the issues raised in previous threads see:

http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/hamaayan/erets-2.htm

(The article is in Hebrew).

There is a lot to be learned from the GR"A's love of Israel.  BTW, he also 
paskens leHalacha that a husband or wife can force their spouse to move to 
Israel.

The Rambam, btw, paskens that a slave who escapes to Israel cannot be sent 
to his master outside of Israel.  These Halachot show the true state of 
Chaza"l's thoughts on the importance of coming to Israel, throughout 
history.


Shoshana L. Boublil

> Subject: [Avodah] yishuv EY
> To: avodah <avodah@aishdas.org>
 How many yeshivot in EY learn
> VM and how many learn the thoughts of R. Kook and RYBS?

Well, I don't know what's going on in Chareidi Yeshivot.

But in Hesder yeshivot and DL Kollelim and Midrashot (for women) we study 
VM, R. Kook and RYBS.


Shoshana L. Boublil

How did those Ashkenazim who don't normally use Israeli pronunciation come to pronounce the last syllable of "HaShem" as a segol and not a tzeire?? 


Sincerely,
Bob Miller


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>  "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com> writes
> 
> If people are still interested, a PDF of R' Unna's teshuvah on 
> girls'
> choral groups is now available on
> 
> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/shoalin.pdf
> 
> He construes kol isha narrowly, following the Rishonim, indicating 
> that
> none of the poskim use the gemara in Sotah about men & women singing 
> being
> like a fire in flax, which might actually asser such choral 
> performances.
> If one chooses to be machmir on himself, he should be machmir on 
> himself
> davka, and not make a public protest.
> 
Thank you.
In that tshuva he forbids kol isha of an ervah, he only permits (or
rather more precisely - says there is no chiyuv macho'oh concerning)
girls that are not ervah. The gemoro in sota would extend it BEYOND
ervah, just the fact they are singing together, concerning which he says
it is not brought by the poskim. 
I fail to see how this tshuvah helps concerning opera etc. since there we
are (usually) dealing with ervah. In addition, according to many nida is
also considered ervah which would cause a problem even concerning single
Jewish girls.  See concerning all this Otzar Haposkim EH 21:21.
KT
CGS

From: "Chaim G Steinmetz"
>>  "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com> writes
 R' Unna's teshuvah on girls'choral groups is now available on
>> http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/shoalin.pdf

> In that tshuva he forbids kol isha of an ervah, he only permits (or
> rather more precisely - says there is no chiyuv macho'oh concerning)
> girls that are not ervah.

> I fail to see how this tshuvah helps concerning opera etc. since there we
> are (usually) dealing with ervah. In addition, according to many nida is
> also considered ervah which would cause a problem even concerning single
> Jewish girls.  See concerning all this Otzar Haposkim EH 21:21.

The MB 75:17 says this - beshem Achronim.

SBA

On Mon, 28 May 2007 00:37:01 -0600 "Shoshana L. Boublil" 
>  From: Eli Turkel 
>   Hence I would suspect that if one really took every shitah 
>  into account that there is not much room left
>
>The point of the post was that people keep following their 
>feelings instead of checking the facts on the ground.
>
>I asked specifically. They said that going by the machmir 
>positions, there is still sufficient places to visit on the area 
>known nowadays as the Temple Mount to walk for a period of 2 
>hours.

I understood the point to be that combining _every_ shita would 
leave very little room.  It is possible that the "machmir" 
positions you describe would take into account certain machlochsim 
between major authorities, but not all the (probably vast numbers) 
of shitos.  One would have to ask, "are you aware of any shita 
which is not covered by avoiding such and such areas?"  Or is this 
what you asked?

Also, we've discussed here before the appropriateness (or lack 
thereof) of being choshesh for kol hadeios, and my recollection was 
that the chevra for the most part at least hesitant to apply this 
concept too widely.  On this inyan people are taking this approach 
as a default.  What is the difference?  Is it because this is a 
safek in metzius rather than din?  Or is there a sense that there 
is no kulah lurking in being machmir?  A specific sense that 
regarding the kedushah of the Mikdash it is especially important to 
be machmir?  Or something else?

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

On Tue, 29 May 2007 00:12:18 -0600 SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:
>>>Should one who knows he may not be able to keep shabbos day 
>>>perfectly not make kiddush at night?
>
>Maybe your question should be:
>"Should (or can) one who knows he may not be able to keep shabbos 
>day perfectly - be motzi others with kiddush at night?"

Do you have a source to say he can't (or shouldn't)?

Note, I see the s'vara to say that a shomer shabbos shouldn't be 
yotzei with him l'chatchila, but that's not the same thing.

[I put the following out of order, because it is a tangent to the 
subject at hand.]

>Hopefully he uses yayin mevushal...

I assume this is a joke but I have wondered about it.  Does anyone 
know a source that discusses this issue?  Do we say that since 
ta'amim for the gezeriah are not relevant (is he really choshesh 
that he himself did AZ) he can drink it?  Or do we say lo plug.

The obvious practical case: is giving a non-mevushal kosher wine as 
a gift to a non-frum person (or even pouring them a glass) lifnei 
iver?

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

On Mon, 28 May 2007 23:39:31 -0600 SBA <sba@sba2.com> wrote:
>It is no question that RCC would ban current baalei aveireh
>from making aliya.

If we take this approach the whole discussion will come down to 
whether frum yidden should support groups which encourage non-frum 
people to make aliyah.  As far as those who do it on their own, 
they're not asking our opinions.  And I hope we can all agree that 
DL/RZ olim are not "baalei aveireh."

Leaving shmitta aside: would RCC matir aliyah for most members of 
this list, do you think?

>How do you think he would have ruled for those who asked about
>making aliyah - but plan to rely on the Hetter Mechirah?

First you're assuming that he would posken against the HM.  Even 
accepting this assumption, do you have a source to say that he 
would call someone a "ba'al aveirah" if they follow a Rav that 
holds of the HM?

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

I think what is being referred to in the discussion is the former Ottoman
Islamic court bu idling which is at the end of the Street of Chain.  It's
southern wall is what one sees when standing at the Kotel and you look up to
your left.  It's eastern portion actually is located inside Har Habayit
albeit one floor up, being supported by the columns alongside the western
wall of the mount inside.  There is where Rav Goren's synagogue is located,
containing an Aron Kodesh and Sefer, by the way.  It serves the Border
Police, well, those that are Jewish and we daven there on Tisha B'Av Mincha
and also Mincha of Yom Kippur.  Technically, it is "inside" but one cannot
step onto the platform in the physically sense.

-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
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