Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 120

Mon, 21 May 2007

• 1. Re: Going up to Har HaBayis (Goldmeier)
• 2. Re: Going up to Har HaBayis (Goldmeier)
• 3. Re: Zeikher-Tekher (was: Z"L in English) (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: kashrus of milk (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: [Areivim] leil shavuot (Daniel Israel)
• 6. Re: kashrus of milk (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Ascending to the Har Habayit (Saul Guberman)
• 8. Re: Yom Yerushalayim (Moshe Feldman)
• 9. Re: Yom Yerushalayim (Moshe Feldman)
• 10. Re: Yom Yerushalayim (Moshe Feldman)
• 11. Wording of Kaddish (ramiller500@aol.com)
• 12. Re: kashrus of milk (Elliott Shevin)
• 13. shemitta (Samuel Groner)
• 14. Rashi and geography (Shalom Berger)

I would just like to add to two of R' Dov Bloom's points below that I 
excerpted....
1. I have been up in groups in which women were present. While the issue 
of nida makes it more difficult for women to ascend, it is possible. 
They have to refrain from sexual relations for three days prior to 
ascending, along with going to the mikva...
2. I once went up and was joined by Tuvia Sagiv. He is the proponent of 
the main opinion opposing the Radba"z. He is of the opinion that the 
mikdash was much further south than the location of the Dome of the Rock 
platform. In deference to him, while we normally walk around following 
the opinion of the Radba"z, on that occassion we were machmir like both 
the Radbaz and Sagiv, and we avoided the whole southern area (we walked 
around to the left on the northern side, and then doubled back instead 
of making the full circle.)

Rafi.

---------
Goldmeier
goldmeier@012.net.il

http://torahthoughts.blogspot.com
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com
http://parshaquestions.blogspot.com
http://yomtovthoughts.blogspot.com




Dov Bloom wrote:
>
> Har habayit is considered machane leviah, and forbidden to a zav, zava, nidah, yoledet and baal keri. That is why those who ascend to har habayit all go to the mikve immediately before, and women are not part of these groups.  There are 4 hour and 16 hour "courses" preparing people before they ascend, where they learn the relevant dinnim.
>
> An important question is to delineate the exact areas that are mutar. Those who go up on har habayit after going to the mikve, and while not wearing leather shoes , basicly follow what is know as the Radbaz's shita. This allows them to make a circuit keeping relatively close to the walls, see ad be close to the makom hamikdash, while staying away from the area near "the dome above the rock" which many shitot hold is "even hashtiya". 
>
>
>   

there is a machlokes whther a baal keri who has not had haarev shemesh 
(waiting for sunset) can go up or not. Most rishonim (not including 
Rashi) hold haerev shemesh is not necessary for a regular baal keri. I 
have been told that is how we pasken. Though I do know some people who 
go to the mikva twice before ascending, once the afternoon before, and 
again the morning of.

However, someone who has not had haerev shemesh, and is also a "mechusar 
kippurim" would not be allowed to go up. He would have to wait for 
haerev shemesh.

Kol tuv
Rafi

---------
Goldmeier
goldmeier@012.net.il

http://torahthoughts.blogspot.com
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com
http://parshaquestions.blogspot.com
http://yomtovthoughts.blogspot.com




Michael Elzufon wrote:
> From: Dov Bloom <dovb@netvision.net.il>
> Subject: [Avodah] Going up to Har HaBayis
>
> The mishna in Midot says that the "halachic" har habayit is ' ta"k ama al ta"k amah '  500x500 amot, or less tan 200 by 200 yards (i'm not being exact and there are plenty of machlokot about the exact length of an amah).  
> [MJE] What amah are you using?  Even one of 18 inches, which is smaller than any shita of which I am aware, would get you 250 yards by 250 yards.
> . 
>
> Har habayit is considered machane leviah, and forbidden to a zav, zava, nidah, yoledet and baal keri. That is why those who ascend to har habayit all go to the mikve immediately before, 
> [MJE] Is there no need to wait for sunset?
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
>   

On Mon, 21 May 2007 10:18:58 +0200, R Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org> wrote:
> RMB wrote:
>> The whole think about repeating a pasuq of parashas Zachor arises from
>> this issue. The Gra made a distinction between "zecher" and "zeicher",
>> that one is a memory, and the other a memorial...
>>                              His talmidim were mesupaqim which means
>> which, leaving them debating as to which the Gaon was maqpid on
>> saying.
>
> Eh, I have seen this posted repeatedly. For the record, I'd like to mention
> that this is debatable. Rav 'Haim Volozhiner disputed that the Gra said
> Zekher....

I did later note in my post that RCV was of the "zekher" camp. Based on the
idea that causitive constructions use rounder vowels (think hif'il, pi'el and
pu'al).

Bekhol zos, I think your objection is to something not written. His talmidim
did dispute among themselves (and therefore as a group, mesupaqim) which the
Gra said meant which. I did not say that they started the practice of repeating
the verse, not did I intent to imply as much.

Rather, later rabbanim learning of this uncertainty decided to do a Brisker
"chesheid leshitas" and do both.

Is the second iteration of the pasuq a hefseiq before the berakhah after the
aliyah? It's after the mitzvah, so the whole le'alter issue for birkhos hamitzvah
isn't there; I therefore do not know what constitutes a hefseiq -- hesekh hada'as?
It could be that the practice is truly a "no lose" proposition.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 48th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Malchus: What binds different
Fax: (270) 514-1507             people together into one cohesive whole?

On Mon, 21 May 2007 11:41:26 -0400, "Rich, R Joel" <JRich@sibson.com> wrote:
> Firstly there are a lot of treif cows on chalav yisrael farms - just
> that we don't check to see if they are in that category presumably based
> on rov and kashe lvarrer. However if the statistical % is greater than
> 2% and we hold 1/60...

But why would we hold of anything but rov? It's not a question of bitul
betaaroves, but of birur safeiq deleisa leqaman. (Given that qasheh levarer
makes a safeiq "leisa leqaman".)

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

Moved from Areivim at moderators request.

Newman,Saul Z wrote:
>    from Hakhel bulletin---This Motze'ei Shabbos will inaugurate 
the 
> "Shloshes Yemei Hagbala"--the three-day preparatory period before 
> Shavuos in which we surrounded Har Sinai to begin to appreciate 
and 
> inculcate within us the enormity of the Event we were about to 
> experience. ...
>
> in light of this, i wonder if there are any eidot  that forbid 
biah 
> [either on leil tvilla, or stam] on Leil Shavuot

R' Mordechai Eliahu, in his sefer Darchei T'hara does bring down 
such a 
minhag.  He includes it in a list of times at which according to 
the 
Ari, a ba'al nefesh should refrain.  He also mentions that 
"chasidim 
v'anshei ma'aseh" refrain on the three nights before Shavous as 
well, 
with the caveat that not all so refrain, since it is not mentioned 
by 
the Ariz"l.

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

But why would we hold of anything but rov? It's not a question of bitul
betaaroves, but of birur safeiq deleisa leqaman. (Given that qasheh
levarer makes a safeiq "leisa leqaman".)

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

========================================
I am having a hard time tieing together all the concepts.

where do we find the concept of qasheh levarer at all or that it has the
power to make a safeiq leita leqaman? I could not find any rishonim who
mentioned it (but of course that's not a rayah:-))


What if we "knew" one cow was treif in the herd of 50 cows after they
had all been milked into the same vat but before the milk was used.
Would we say rov is enough or require shishim?

KT
Joel Rich
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On 5/21/07, Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   It is not technically a Halachic book (especially as it is imprimatured
> by Rav Aamar and Rav Rabinowitz) but it is a tremendous aid to understanding
> everything about the Mikdash and Har HaBayit.
>

Could you explain your parenthetical comment?
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On 5/21/07, Samuel Svarc <ssvarc@yeshivanet.com> wrote:
> And still R' Lichtenstein is opposed to [going to Har Habayis].
> Even after R' Meidan went and
> notwithstanding the argument of "sovereignty". I think this proves my point
> that he understands that the halcha was this way historically (after we lost
> the mesorah of positions)

I asked a talmid of Rav Lichtenstein who told me that RAL does not
consider there to be a safek as to the Makom HaMikdash.  Rather, RAL
does not give a blanket heter for people to go to Har Habayis because
of the issue of Mora HaMikdash--that people may not have the proper
kavana.  See more about this at:
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/halak65/10a-halak.htm
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/halak65/10b-halak.htm
http://vbm-torah.org/archive/halak65/10c-halak.htm

Apparently, yechidim have consulted with RAL about going to Har
Habayis and he has not told them that it is assur.

> >[MF:] For example, you yourself will admit
> >that most gedolim in the 19th century supported the heter mechira,
> >given the precarious situation of the yishuv in EY (which itself is a
> >halachic value).  Today, the situation is different.
>
> I do not admit this, on the contrary I think this is false. The hetterim
> that the European gedolim gave were predicated on the EY gedolim agreeing to
> the p'sak. This never happened, therefore most gedolim of the 19th century
> were actually opposed to heter mechira.

That's misleading.  The European gedolim deferred to Rav Yitzchak
Elchanan Spector, who was considered the leading posek of the era, and
he said that it was muttar mitzad ha'halacha.

This is discussed at length by R. Shlomo Yosef Zevin in an article
reprinted at http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/kitveyet/sinay/shmita-4.htm
(towards the end).

The article notes that in 5649 (a shmitta year), various rabbanim,
including R. Yitzchak Elchanan, paskened that the Heter Mechira works,
but it should be done only if the Shtar Mechira was written and
approved by the rabbanim of Jerusalem.  I presume that this was done
because they were the mara d'asra of EY and RYE felt that he could not
force a psak on them.  They refused in that year, but in 5656 Rav
Yehoshua Leib Diskin (the greatest posek in EY) agreed to the Heter
Mechira WRT fruit, and in 5663 Rav Shmuel Salant and the ADeReT agreed
to the Heter Mechira WRT fruit.  However, in 5670, rabbanim such as
the Ridvaz opposed the Heter Mechira (MF: Rav YZ Rimon in his sefer on
Shmitta says that this was because of changed economic circumstances).

See also http://www.daat.ac.il/shmita/mehirat/kahana.htm, an article
by R. Kalman Kahana, which goes into much greater detail and says that
there were different halachic methodologies used in the heter mechira
of each of those shmittos, so that R. Yitzchak Elchanan's heter for
5649 did not automatically cover the methodology used in subsequent
years.

Kol tuv,
Moshe

On 5/21/07, Moshe Feldman <moshe.feldman@gmail.com> wrote:
> (MF: Rav YZ Rimon in his sefer on
> Shmitta says that this was because of changed economic circumstances).

That part of his sefer is found here:
http://www.etzion.org.il/vbm/archive/6-halak/22pitro.php (see 3/4 of
the way down, "ha'yachas l'heter mechira").

Kol tuv,
Moshe

On 5/21/07, Moshe Feldman <moshe.feldman@gmail.com> wrote:
> The article notes that in 5649 (a shmitta year), various rabbanim,
> including R. Yitzchak Elchanan, paskened that the Heter Mechira works,
<snip>
> in 5656 Rav
> Yehoshua Leib Diskin (the greatest posek in EY) agreed to the Heter
> Mechira WRT fruit, and in 5663 Rav Shmuel Salant and the ADeReT agreed
> to the Heter Mechira WRT fruit.

Actual quotations from the various rabbanim, and an in-depth analysis,
may be found at
http://shmita.daat.ac.il/mehirat/nerya.htm

Kol tuv,
Moshe

Being new to this list, I don't know how exhaustively this may have been discussed before, but, anyway, here goes:
 
1.  In the Kaddish, when, where, and by whom was the earliest known use of these word forms? (pardon my layman's orthography)---
 
a.  Yisgadeil
b.  V'Yiskadeish
c.  Tiskabeil
d.  Any others heard in some shul(s), where a tzeire has (seemingly at least!) replaced a patach
 
2.  What is the most scholarly rationale for any or all of these forms, given by those who use them?
 
3.  What are the best counter-arguments in favor of using a patach in these situations?
 
Thanks!
 
Sincerely,
Bob Miller
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I've been called on the cynicism of my post, and must apologize for shooting from the hip. My reaction stems from the fact that AFAIK, cows here in the U.S. used for cholov Yisrael and other milk are one and the same. The original post raises several questions for me. 
 
Does the pronouncement apply only to Israel, or is it global? 
 
Are the veterinary practices referred to occur in EY only, or are they common worldwide? 
 
Is the pronouncement alleging that the practices it refers to render a cow insufficiently viable 
to be kosher?
 
The right set of answers might mean there's no cholov Yisrael (even de jure) outside EY. Elly
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Avrohom Yitskhok Walters' analysis of why we should not be eager to
buy goods from Israel reminded me of an excellent piece of purim torah
by R. Eli Clark (I think the title is "Hilchos Television" or
something similar) that explains, in a footnote, why we should avoid
living in Eretz Yisrael based on a sofek that can be avoided by living
in chutz l'aretz.  R. Clark was just joking, but I'd ask RAYW, based
on your logic, why not avoid living in Israel altogether, since "we
have enough [mitzvos] that are hard enough" in golus?

Sammy Groner

I was learning Massechet Sukkah with my son and we came across the sugya of "etrog ha-kushi" (31a), which concludes that whether or not a black etrog is kosher depends on where you are - "ha lan ve-ha lehu."

Rashi's explaination follows the usual definition of those terms, and he explains that since Bavel is closer to Kush than is Eretz Yisrael, people in Bavel are used to them, and black is acceptable. Since Israel is far from Kush, black is abnormal and therefore pasul.

Working with the assumption that Kush is Ethiopia, it appears that Rashi has it backwards. Any suggestions?

Shalom

Rabbi Shalom Z. Berger, Ed.D.
The Lookstein Center for Jewish Education in the Diaspora
School of Education
Bar-Ilan University
http://www.lookstein.org
Blogging at http://schmoozed.lookstein.org/
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