Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 117

Sun, 20 May 2007

• 1. otzar bet din (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: tachanun & lamnatzeach (Arie Folger)
• 3. Yahretzeit (bdcohen@optonline.net)
• 4. Re: otzar bet din (Ilana Sober)
• 5. Understanding a shitta through an opponent's criticism of it (Zvi Lampel)
• 6. Re: shemitta (Moshe Feldman)
• 7. Re: shemitta (Moshe Feldman)
• 8. Re: shemitta (A & C Walters)
• 9. ascending Har Habayit (Yisrael Medad)
• 10. Re: shmitta (reuven koss)
• 11. Re: shemitta (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: shemitta (Samuel Svarc)
• 13. Re: shemitta (Samuel Svarc)
• 14. Re: otzar bet din (Michael Elzufon)

Regarding otzar beit din - please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it
only works for fruits, that grow every year on the same trees (or
grapevines). But with crops that need to be planted every year (vegetables
and grains) there would be a problem of s'fichin that couldn't be solved by
OBD.>>

exactly the opposte. OBD works to overcome the problem of sefichim.
For fruits you do not need it

-- 
Eli Turkel
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RET wrote:
> ON a completely different issue I was a week ago visiting the Haas
> Promenade.
>
> >From there as well as Nabi Samuel one gets two very different views of
>
> all of Jerusalem. From both sides it is clear that "har ha-bait" is MUCH
> below
> the level of all the nearby hills including the Har-Hazeitim.
> Har Tzion is some 30 meters above Har HaBayit

Why did you expect anything else? Uvein keseifav shakhen. The HhB was not the 
highest mountain of the area!

KT

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

"BTW I was just a nebi samuel and learned that yom yerushalayim is the
yahrzeit of Shmuel HaNavi.  In that case chassidim should certianly
not say tachanun on the 28th of Iyar."
It is also the yahretzeit of the SeMaK (Sefer Mitzvot Ktanot). 

David I. Cohen
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RET: exactly the opposte. OBD works to overcome the problem of sefichim.
For fruits you do not need it

AFAIK, the source for OBD is Tosefta Shevi'it 8:1. The examples mentioned
are figs, grapes, and olives - all fruit.

Also - I see how beit din solves the problem that the produce needs to be
hefker and available to all. How does it solve the problem of s'fichin,
which are assur because there is a concern that people might have planted
them deliberately?

- Ilana

>> And it is not clear that 
>>the Rambam holds that there is no mitzvah: 

> The Ramban felt that way, as he argued against the Rambam, making it clear 
> what he understood the Rambam's position to be.

I would like to raise a broader issue than the particular one this part of the dialogue was discussing: Should one regard as accurate the way a critic of a shitta represents that shitta? Should one rely on his take to determine the shitta of the one attacked?
 
Often one finds that Tosefos' kushyos on Rashi are answered by others maintaining that a closer examination of Rashi shows Tosefos was misunderstanding him (or at least criticizing the way Rashi expressed his opinion).

Similarly, the Rambam (and his son) sometimes ressonded to criticisms by saying that his shitta was misunderstood or misrepresented by the criticizer.
 
And it seems to me that Abarbanel often scathingly criticizes others for saying things that closer examination shows they didn't say.

And, of course, we often see this complaint voiced on Avodah.
 
Zvi Lampel
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On 5/18/07, Samuel Svarc <ssvarc@yeshivanet.com> wrote:
> > And it is not clear that
> >the Rambam holds that there is no mitzvah:
>
> The Ramban felt that way, as he argued against the Rambam, making it clear
> what he understood the Rambam's position to be.

No.  The Ramban merely says that it's a mitzvah not counted by the
Rambam as one of the 613.  The Rambam, as he did in other cases which
he wrote about in the shorashim, might have reasons not to count it,
but from the Ramban's perspective, the Rambam in the shorashim never
gave a sufficient reason for not counting eating fruits of Shmittah.

> > And Rav Moshe Feinstein holds that according to the Rambam it's a
> >mitzvah kiyumis.
>
> Which is definitely not a chiyuv on someone else to facilitate.

I would argue the opposite: if it's a mitzvah kiyumis, it's a value
that we all share, just that some prefer doing other mitzvos (just as
some people are better suited to fulfilling certain mitzvos than
others).  But clearly it's an important value, as all sefer Devarim
talks about that.  If so, we should not do things which undermine the
ability of others to fulfill that mitzvah.

> >First, I noted that Rav Kook's understanding is the pashut pshat in
> >the Ramban.
>
> In R' Kook's opinion. The CI disagreed with this.

In looking at the Ramban in shi'chi'chas ha'asin 3, it looks like it
could be read both ways.  Interestingly, the way the Megillas Esther
quotes the Ramban, he adds language which makes it clear that it's a
mitzvah to eat.

> >Second, the CI himself strongly pushed Otzar Bais Din
> >over buying produce from Arabs. So charedim should follow their
> >manhig completely, not just for one prat.
>
> I would assume, if the rumor that they aren't using OB is true, that the
> reasoning is as follows: Experience has shown that people don't keep the
> "kedushat sheviis" properly. So they picked the better of two evils, as
> their manhig didn't feel there was a chiyuv to eat peiros sheviis.

Have you heard that charedim are not keeping kedushas shevis properly?
AFAIK, it's just the Badatz Eidah Charedis which is not pushing OB.
The masses are voting with their feet, because kedushas sheviis is a
"bother."  Have you found statements from Rav Elyashiv and others
stating that OB is no longer to be preferred?

Shavua tov.
Moshe

On 5/19/07, Moshe Feldman <moshe.feldman@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >First, I noted that Rav Kook's understanding is the pashut pshat in
> > >the Ramban.

On 5/18/07, Samuel Svarc <ssvarc@yeshivanet.com> wrote:
> > In R' Kook's opinion. The CI disagreed with this.

See Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank in Shu"t Har Tzvi OC 2:68 who understands
the Ramban that there is a mitzvah to eat peiros sheviis and quotes
some others who understood the Ramban that way.  He does not mention
that this understanding of the Ramban is a subject of dispute.

However, the Sridei Aish 2:90 believes that the Ramban does not
believe that there is a mitzvah to eat peiros sheviis, as nowhere in
Shas is there a hint that there is such a mitzvah.  (Counterargument:
couldn't the same argument be used to argue that there is no mitzvah
of yishuv EY, yet the Ramban learns such a mitzvah from the psukim?)

Shavua tov.
Moshe

> Israeli fruits and vegetables are sometimes sold in local stores (e.g. 
> peppers from Costco). While one should be eager to purchase this 
> produce and support the Israeli economy,...

I am not so sure why one should be "eager to purchase this product", for the
following reasons:

1) Since we are dealing with tevel, the producer is obviously frei (it is
ossur to sell tevel to an am hororetz). This means that r"l he probably
works on shabbos and y"t. At least 1/7th of the fruit you buy, therefore is
directly due to chillul shabbos.
2) By definition, if you are "eager to support the Israeli economy" it would
only work if by you buying, it increases the export of these fruit. This is
effectively flooding the American/European market with tevel, and creating a
nichshol for secular Jews who don't take tv"m. Presumably it would be better
to help minimise the exports, not increase them
3) Choyteh niskeh
4) SO CM 231:26 deals with the issur of exporting fruits and vegetables from
EY to chu"l under certain conditions. Whilst al pi the letter of the law one
is probably not oyver, the fact that is hard to get decent quality fruits
here in EY, whilst when in England I saw beautiful fruits from EY, may mean
that one is going against the spirit, if not the letter, of the law. Also,
the fact that the SO mentions the issur, but not the mitzvah of supporting
etc. implies that there is none.

This will be IY"H my first shmitta year in EY. I am considering going with
the Brisker derech (of only eating fruits imported from chu"l), but it is
probably unrealistic, and therefore I will most probably go with the Eida
Chareidis shita.

Also, those who say that by avoiding the "difficulties" of the mitzvah, it
should be fakert, a person should look for them, and enjoy them, let's not
forget shitas Tos; (beshem R' Chaim) Kesub. 110b that because of the
difficulties of shmitta etc, one is potur from yishuv E"Y. There is, also,
no mitsvah to find mitsvahs; we have enough that are hard enough; I am
struggling with what I am mechayiv, and probably not doing that properly -
why look for more! (Of course, if someone is capable of doing them all
properly, then why not add on a bunch more; it is more schar, but I speak
for myself, that I have enough)

Beinyen this, there is the similar makhlokes if one should go to the Old
City during Ch"HaM Succos to be mekayim (mesofek) 4 minim deorayseh, or not.

A gute vokh

Avrohom Yitskhok Walters

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Eli Turkel wrote:

One they do not rely on historical guesses as to where was the Temple. In
fact
there are probably enough theories around that include almost everything.

One really doesn't have to guess.  There is enough Rabbinic literature that
permits entry and enough scientific indications that would useful. I think
that the major question is either ideological or physchological - are there
Rabbis willing to paskin in the matter.

Second the fear that once one goes on the Temple mount it is too easy to get
into the "wrong" areas or that one does not go to the mikvah properly etc.

Well, at present, people to go up to the "wrong" areas and they don't go to
the Mikveh.  Which is better: having the Chief Rabbinate issue a new psak
defining to the best of their ability which areas cannot be entered and
under what conditions or allow people to enter areas they can't and turn a
blind eye?




-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
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  >
> Regarding otzar beit din - please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it
> only works for fruits, that grow every year on the same trees (or
> grapevines). But with crops that need to be planted every year (vegetables
> and grains) there would be a problem of s'fichin that couldn't be solved 
> by
> OBD.
>
> - Ilana


I'm not holding in shmitta yet, but iirc,  whatever is planted before 
shmitta doesn't have a problem of s'fichim.
reuven 

A & C Walters wrote:
>> Israeli fruits and vegetables are sometimes sold in local stores (e.g. 
>> peppers from Costco). While one should be eager to purchase this 
>> produce and support the Israeli economy,...
> 
> I am not so sure why one should be "eager to purchase this product", for the
> following reasons:
> 
> 1) Since we are dealing with tevel, the producer is obviously frei

Who says we're dealing with tevel?  We have no idea where the produce
comes from, or what if anything's been taken from it.  It's demai, not
tevel.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

>From: Moshe Feldman [mailto:moshe.feldman@gmail.com]
>
>No.  The Ramban merely says that it's a mitzvah not counted by the
>Rambam as one of the 613.  The Rambam, as he did in other cases which
>he wrote about in the shorashim, might have reasons not to count it,
>but from the Ramban's perspective, the Rambam in the shorashim never
>gave a sufficient reason for not counting eating fruits of Shmittah.

I think you are getting confused here, as I was referring to Yishuv EY. Not
shmittah.

>> > And Rav Moshe Feinstein holds that according to the Rambam it's a
>> >mitzvah kiyumis.
>>
>> Which is definitely not a chiyuv on someone else to facilitate.
>
>I would argue the opposite: if it's a mitzvah kiyumis, it's a value
>that we all share, just that some prefer doing other mitzvos (just as
>some people are better suited to fulfilling certain mitzvos than
>others).  But clearly it's an important value, as all sefer Devarim
>talks about that.  If so, we should not do things which undermine the
>ability of others to fulfill that mitzvah.

No one is undermining, they are simply not facilitating. And since according
to R' Moshe it's a mitzvah kiyumis, I don't understand how one can require
someone else to facilitate their own mitzvah kiyumis, as you are arguing. 

>> >First, I noted that Rav Kook's understanding is the pashut pshat in
>> >the Ramban.
>>
>> In R' Kook's opinion. The CI disagreed with this.
>
>In looking at the Ramban in shi'chi'chas ha'asin 3, it looks like it
>could be read both ways.

Are you now conceding that it's plausible that the CI held his version was
pashut p'shat in the Ramban?

> Interestingly, the way the Megillas Esther
>quotes the Ramban, he adds language which makes it clear that it's a
>mitzvah to eat.

Since when can't the CI argue with Megillas Esther (we are referring to the
commentary on the Ramban's critiques, not the sefer of K'suvim)?

>> I would assume, if the rumor that they aren't using OB is true, that the
>> reasoning is as follows: Experience has shown that people don't keep the
>> "kedushat sheviis" properly. So they picked the better of two evils, as
>> their manhig didn't feel there was a chiyuv to eat peiros sheviis.
>
>Have you heard that charedim are not keeping kedushas shevis properly?

No. Neither have I heard that they aren't keeping OB. As you yourself
pointed out, the charedi Gedolim have strongly encouraged OB. I therefore
assumed upon hearing a rumor that this had changed, it was a conscious
decision of the same Gedolie Yisroel based on experience of people not
keeping kedushas shviis.  

>AFAIK, it's just the Badatz Eidah Charedis which is not pushing OB.

And as others have posted they have halachic reasons for this.

>The masses are voting with their feet, because kedushas sheviis is a
>"bother."  Have you found statements from Rav Elyashiv and others
>stating that OB is no longer to be preferred?

Have you? I never claimed that they are not eating OB, in fact I didn't
believe the rumor as you can see with this quote from a previous post of
mine, "With all that, I don't see why Otzar BD couldn't fulfill all of this,
and therefore I'm skeptical of the claim that the Badatz doesn't use OB",
having been told that the Badatz has halachic reasons not to hold of OB, I
accept it on them, but I remain skeptical of the claim that litvishe
charedim, who do not share the Badatz's halachic reasoning don't use OB. And
if the rumor is true, I offered a reason that doesn't have them considering
it a "bother", but rather being worried over possible improper disposal.
DLZ, I think it's called.

KT,
MSS

>From: Moshe Feldman [mailto:moshe.feldman@gmail.com]
>
>Not necessarily.  "There are those" just shows that the Rambam
>disagrees with the Ramban, and it is not clear who we pasken like.  In
>contrast, according to CI, *no* rishon holds that there is a mitzvah
>to eat.

And R' Kook disagreed with the CI's position, no? So why do you assume that
"There are those" is not referring to him?

>Now, do you think that if only Rav Kook held that the Ramban holds
>that it's a mitzvah to eat, but Rav Elyashiv and CI held otherwise, do
>you think that Rav Elyashiv would bother saying "there are those?"
>Obviously, he believes that this opinion is worth being choshesh for.

Yes, I do think he would say "there are those" even if it's only R' Kook who
held that way. R' Kook was a major TC, and why should someone not be
chosheish for his shittah, all else being equal?

KT,
MSS

Just to be clear the modern otzar bet din is a major chidush of the CI (the ancient one worked differently). Basically the Badatz does not hold of this chiddush. 

Now that you have raised the issue, can I ask you for an exposition of the differences between the ancient oztar beth din and today's?  Also, where the Badatz (aka Eda Haredit) differs?


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