Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 113

Wed, 16 May 2007

• 1. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to soCIETY (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: shelo osani (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: priorities in Talmud Torah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to soCIETY (Samuel Svarc)
• 5. Re: shemitta (Dr. Josh Backon)
• 6. Re: priorities in Talmud Torah (Samuel Svarc)
• 7. Re: AhS YD 123-182 (Dovi Jacobs)
• 8. AhS 123-182 (Jonathan Baker)
• 9. Z"L in English (Zvi Lampel)
• 10. shemitta (Eli Turkel)
• 11. priorities in Talmud Torah (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: priorities in Talmud Torah (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: shemitta (Micha Berger)

On Mon, May 14, 2007 7:25 pm, Doron Beckerman wrote:
: RMB says:
:>> In any case, a statement about interrupting a mitzvah can't be
:>> taken to be one about prioritization. <<
:
: That wasn't the source quoted for this discussion. The source was the
: Gemara in Megillah which states that Talmud Torah is indeed greater
: than Hatzalas Nefashos as a choice of prioritization. This is what
: the Chafetz Chaim was talking about.

The gemara, Megillah 16b, was discussed back in v13n43. See RAM's post
at <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol13/v13n043.shtml#03> and
responses. I was running with a different one raised later. But the
gemara in question is about Mordechai giving up kavod haTorah for
hatzalas nefashos. Which he held was the right choice. Nor did they
tell him it was the wrong choice. Just the one that left him lesser
(in the relevant way).

:>> To never leave the "ivory towers" of talmud Torah to apply that
:>> Torah beguf and to the real world would be form with no substance,
:>> empty and without embodiment.

: What of Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai and his group, who are granted Toraso
: Umanuso exemptions from Mitzvos Ma'asiyos?

... and whose talmidim didn't succeed and we are told not to follow?

:> Second, as I said on top, the mishnah calls on us to have equal
:> zehirus for all mitzvos -- even ones that are qalos in some ways
:> compared to others! So how can we then take talmud torah keneged
:> kulam as proof to give it more zehirus?

: As above, that isn't the source that proves this. And, who is
: advocating less Zehirus in other Mitzvos?

Isn't that what one is saying when one asserts that being available
for talmud Torah whenever one's kishronos are up to it is a priority
over those other mitzvos. A justified lack of zehirus, being
sacrificed for what is deemed a higher priority -- talmud Torah.

So I reiterate my question -- how does this notion of focussing on one
mitzvah not violate the mishnah of havi zahir, which seems to me to
advocate as broad of a focus on mitzvos as possible?

On Tue, May 15, 2007 3:48 pm, David Riceman wrote:
: Samuel Svarc wrote:
:> No one thinks learning subjects that will help you in Torah is
:> prohibited.

: As you keep telling me, we're not talking about permitted, we're
: talking about preference. If it's inappropriate to study Aristotle,
: rather than studying Torah full time, why did the Rama do it?...

This argument isn't TuM, it's Gra-style "100 yadim of Torah for 1 yad
of other chokhmos". The original question was whether a TuM-nick would
question the Gra's decision to learn full time. On these grounds, the
Gra himself would. And it has nothing to do with TuM philosophy.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, May 16, 2007 10:55 am, R Aryeh Stein wrote to Areivim (in
reply to my post):
:> The Gra argued that the berakhah is "shelo asani nachri", and the
:> censor modified it.

RZBaer in his siddur Avodas Yisrael and R. Shlomo Kluger have "nachri".

BTW, the MB reads "shelo asani aku"m.

And another version of the Gra, the Beiur haGra, has him saying
"she'asani Yisrael", Rav Meir's original nusach (Menachos 43b). A
seifer I had never seen except in a secondary source on the siddur,
Tzelusah deAvraham, argues this "she'asani Yisrael" is certainly the
product of censorship of the gemara.

...
:> After all, in leshon Tanakh, Hashem made us members of a "goy
:> qadosh"; how can we say "shelo asani goy"?

Do you have a maqor for this idea? Because I don't know of a formal
rebuttal of the Gra's assertion on the grounds that "goy" stam means
only the non-qadosh ones. I may talk about my red block, but when I
talk about blocks with no specifier, I usually am including my red
one. Otherwise, wouldn't I say "other blocks" (shelo asani migoyei
ha'aratzos)?

The common objection is usually to the historical assumption. Finding
authoritative girsa'os of the Tosefta Berakhos 6:14, where it is
definitely written in the negative as we say it, and seeing which
actually is older.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your
grip, http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

I wrote:
: RHS's trip to the Alps, lest he have no answer when HQBH asks "Did you
: see my beautiful Alps?" ...

I mistyped. That should read "RSRH". It's a reference to a comment
made in his travelogue in Collected Writings.

(I get my kids' names switched on frequent occasion as well.)

My apologies.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

>From: David Riceman <driceman@att.net>
>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Torah Study vs. other contributions to soCIETY
>
>Samuel Svarc wrote:
>>
>> No one thinks learning subjects that will help you in Torah is
>prohibited.
>>
>As you keep telling me, we're not talking about permitted, we're talking
>about preference.

I'm pleased the message registered. ;-)

>  If it's inappropriate to study Aristotle, rather than
>studying Torah full time, why did the Rama do it?  If the preference
>includes not only Torah but anything that will help you in Torah, why
>doesn't that include training for Zakka, which undoubtedly includes much
>medical information useful for Talmud Torah, and probably presents it in
>a very time-efficient manner.

Sure, if someone wants to train to enhance his Torah study, go right ahead
(although I disagree with you on how effective and time efficient a route
this is). In the context of the original discussion, the training for Zaka
scenario was used as a stand-in for the exact opposite, where one has the
knowledge necessary for Torah but wants to learn it's practical application
as a means to save lives.

I hope this clears up any lingering misunderstandings.

KT,
MSS 

>I don't understand.  The bark will be placed in above-ground trays of some
>sort and filled with soil, and the seeds placed there?  Or the bark will
>be used instead of soil?

The ground coconut bark is used instead of soil and is placed in some
sort of above-ground tray [not "mechubar l'karka"]. All I read  was that
the Rabbanut OK'd use of this coconut bark method for Shmitta
as it just like hydroponics (but without the water). I think they are also
investigating the method to provide insect-free vegetables as there 
is something
in the coconut bark that repels insects [A search on MEDLINE shows the
effectiveness of coconut oil as a larvacide and mosquito repellent]. Farmers
have an incentive to use the new method since it saves them a lot of money
in fertilizer and water.

KT

Josh

>From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
>Subject: Re: [Avodah] priorities in Talmud Torah
>
>On Sun, May 13, 2007 4:38 am, Samuel Svarc wrote:
>: The question was: Everything being equal,
>: what is preferred, learning full time or training for Zaka? Clearly,
>: it's learning that is preferred (sources were previously given).
>
>I must have missed it. I only recall you providing one source, and
>that source isn't about planning one's time, but rather not
>interrupting one's seider. I already argued that one doesn't imply the
>other. Lakol zeman va'eis... So, when it's time to learn, it isn't
>time for Zaka -- unless it's bemaqom she'ein ish. That's not proof
>that it's always time to learn rather than other mitzvos.

Before I give a source (which I will, later in the post) I want to clarify
certain points.

There are definitely things that push off TT. Such as PN, a levayah passing,
a kallah. This is not due to their higher chashivus. If someone can
structure their learning as to avoid this interruptions that is preferred.
There is a clear chiyuv to answer someone's halachic inquiry, to such an
extent that death can result if one is negligent. OTOH, many Gedolie Yisroel
structured their time as to not be physically available at their times of
learning.

So, it's not always time to learn rather then other mitzvos, but this is no
indicator as to preference. For that, one needs to look at other statements
in Chazal where they speak about this. And there are plenty. For example:

Megillah 16b. "Omar Rav Yosef: Gadol TT yoser m'hatzolas n'foshas,
d'miakarah choshiv lay l'Mordechai boser daled, v'lib'sof boser chamishah".
(Look at Rashi there, as well.)

What choice does Mordechai have?! The Gemora terms it "Hatzolas n'foshas".
Isn't that doche everything? Isn't he *required* to close his Gemora? Yes,
but hatzolas n'foshas doesn't come to Torah learning.

There are more sources, but I think this is a good start for discussion.

KT,
MSS 

 

Someone who follows AhS yomi asked me the following.
Does anyone know if the new edition has the missing simanim?
-mi
 No, the only missing part that has been newly published from the author's manuscript is Hilchos Nedarim. The other's, as I understand it, haven't been found.

The new edition doesn't have Hilchos Nedarim; they are sold together with a reprint of the original edition.

By the way, after a hiatus I have just finished Hilchos Taanis online, and I've now started Hilchos Yom Tov. See:

http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/AHS:OCH

Unfortunately I was only able to finish about a quarter of Hilchos Pesach before this past Pesach, but IYH I hope to finish everything left in the third chelek of Orach Chaim (Yom Tov, Chol Hamoed & Pesach) by Pesach next year. Then maybe misc. halachos in Yoreh Deah.

Kol Tuv,
Dovi

       
---------------------------------
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. 
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From: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>
 
> Someone who follows AhS yomi asked me the following.
> Does anyone know if the new edition has the missing simanim?

I expect it has incorporated the section on Nedarim (203-239) that
was published by R' Dr. Simcha Fishbane some years ago.  Bar-Ilan
has neither the Fishbane chapters nor the other missing material.

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

Wed, 16 May 2007 from: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>

On Wed, May 16, 2007 at 09:26:26AM +0100, R Yaakov Wise was helping
RnSB translate "z"l" on Areivim and wrote:
: Usually translated as ..."of blessed memory." Educated non-Jews all know
: this expression - at least in the UK.

> Except that z"l stands for words meaning "may his/her memory be for
a blessing." We are not blessing the memory, but acknowledging the
memory is a source of blessing for us. <


Another (if not the only real, in this context) translation of ?zecher? is ?mention? (a /verbal/ remembrance, as in ?zecher l?maaseh Breishis,? which halachah takes as an obligation to /speak/ of the Creation process over a cup of yayyin, or ?zecher l?y?tzias Mitzrayim,? which entails /speaking/ about the exodus). Zechar Tsaddik L?bracha=?The mention of a tsaddik (which this person was) ought to evoke a blessing,? i.e., he (his soul) deserves good fortune,? or perhaps, "his blessed, positive accomplishments should be mentioned in conjunction with his name." The latter idea was taught by Rav Avigdor Miller, zt?l (whose yirass shammayim was stellar).

Zvi Lampel


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This year the Rabbanut is planning to very much limit the use of the
hetter mechira compared to other years.  They are going individually to
farmers and determining which farms actually need the hetter mechira to
not be destroyed financially, and when they perform the mechira, will be
mapping out which areas they are and aren't selling.  Aside from limiting
problems with selling EY to non-Jews, this is also planning for the future
elimination (IY"H) of the hetter mechira, especially since as soon as a
majority of Jews live in EY (a plurality of Jews already do, and according
to demographers, within the next few decades Israel will have the
majority), the hetter mechira doesn't work according most, if not all,
poskim.>>

This approach is pushed by R. Elyashiv and is followed by R. Metzger. I
doubt it will stay beyond the term of R. Metzger. The problem is that
dati shemitta observing Jews are a tiny fraction of all Israeli farmers.
Hence, there will be not be enough produce to feed the army which is
required to be kosher according to the rabbanut. Not to mention all the
kosher restaurants that currently rely on the heter mechirah. If you
cut down the heter mechirah many of these places will give up on kashrut.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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I also already cited RYHutner, about "kol hama'rich 'echad'" and the
value of having as broad of a life as possible. RHS's trip to the
Alps, lest he have no answer when HQBH asks "Did you see my beautiful
Alps?" seems along the same lines. Neither limit that breadth to Torah
umitzvos. Our case should be a lo kol shekein.>>

The problem is that you are quoting the "wrong poskim". The Israeli charedi
rabbis led by R. Schach and the Steipler Zt"l paskened that a talmid in
yeshivah is not allowed to do ANY other things. This especially includes
hatzalah. However, it also includes not helping build mikvaot and other such
mitzvot.
These are supposed to be done exclusively by people outside of yeshiva

BTW the story with RHS reminds me of the similar story about the Ponivizher
Rav
who went to the aquarium in Miami (while on a fundraising mission) for the
same reason that one is required to see all of G-d's creations.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Wed, May 16, 2007 3:16 pm, R Eli Turkel wrote:
: The problem is that you are quoting the "wrong poskim". The Israeli
: charedi rabbis led by R. Schach and the Steipler Zt"l paskened that a
: talmid in yeshivah is not allowed to do ANY other things....

The same is true in the US. In my day, NIRC somewhat stood out (I do
not know policy under RAFeldman) in allowing talmidim to be Pirchei
leaders. Similarly their participation in kiruv programs.

But the question was TuM adherents and whether those who committed
their whole lives to learning "reached their potential". Eilu va'eilu
means that proving one tzad is divrei E-lokim chaim has nothing to do
with proving or disproving the other tzad. We all know there is a
yeshivish derekh, and how they define the ideal.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

My shul sent out the following from R' Aharon Cohen (Tifereth Israel
of Passaic and Stern College for Women). Note the links to useful
guides for terumos uma'aseros for chu"l from R' Luban and from the
star-K.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

...
Israeli fruits and vegetables are sometimes sold in local stores (e.g.
peppers from Costco). While one should be eager to purchase this
produce and support the Israeli economy, it is important to carefully
follow the
Halachos relating to separation of Terumos & Ma'asros.

Two articles can be used for this purpose.

The first article is from the Star-K and it provides more background
information regarding the obligation(s) of separating Terumos &
Ma'asros. It also provides a Hebrew (and English) version of the text
which must be said, and the layout may also be more user-friendly.
That article can be found at
http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-medi-terumos.htm

The second article is from Rabbi Luban, and it provides some additional
information, and also includes a summary of how to separate the Terumos &
Ma'asros. That article can be seen at
http://tifereth-passaic.org/HafrashasTerumosU'Ma'asros-RabbiLuban.pdf

If you know of others who could use these articles, please forward them.
Purchasing these products both helps to support the Israeli economy, and
also provides us in Chutz La"Aretz with an opportunity to fulfill the
Halachos Ha'Teluyos Ba'Aretz!
...



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