Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 103

Thu, 10 May 2007

• 1. Re: Yebamoth and Megilath Ruth (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Torah study vs. other contributions to society (Doron Beckerman)
• 3. Re: Ahavat Yisrael (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 4. Correction (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 5. Re: Ahavat Yisrael (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 6. Re: Non Terief Cows for Milk - Why Not BP Cows? Even Better. (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: sweet chalot (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 8. Non Terief Cows for Milk - Why Not BP Cows? Even Better. (Meir Rabi)
• 9. Re: chumrah of Sefardim (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 10. Davening Netz vs. Minyan (Danny Schoemann)
• 11. Ahavat Yisrael -- another point (Shoshana L. Boublil)
• 12. Re: chumrah of Sefardim (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 13. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to soCIETY (David Riceman)

Galsaba@aol.com wrote:

> Was Ruth converted before her husband died, or after?
> If it was after, why to mention "Goel"? there is no Mitzva of Yibum, as 
> she does not have any relatives.

The mitzvah of "uva go'alo hakarov elav" is about buying back the land;
somebody had to buy back the land that Elimelech sold.  But the purpose
of this mitzvah is to clear the blot on the family's escutcheon, and in
this case there was another debt on the family - to take care of Ruth -
and whoever took it on himself to redeem the land would also have to
assume this debt.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

In response to Rn Luntz:

 I'm not at all sure I agree that ability to be Mechadesh, or even
intellectual capacity, is the determining factor here. A person who is a big
Mechadesh might find that his learning is with less Amal baTorah than one
who is average, and the Torah of the latter person may be more valuable to
Hashem, and to protect the world (and perhaps, this is why it is greater
than Hatzalas Nefashos - who knows?)  than that of the former.
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Reb' Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
> Actually, Rav Kook quotes the Chafetz Chaim in his book "Ahavat Chesed". 
> The Chafetz Chaim quotes Rabbi Yehonatan Vohliner: The Din that it is 
> allowed or a Mitzva to hate people that don't follow the straight path, is 
> only after you reproved (Hochichuhu), but it is forbidden to hate him until 
> all the options have been tried.  And, as the Tana'im have already informed 
> us "Temeihani Im Yesh BaDor HaZeh SheYode'ah LeHochi'ach" (Arachin 16b) 
> Mimeila, it is forbidden (!!!!-SLB) to hate anyone.
>
> Rav Kook continues that nowadays, we are not supposed to use the educational 
> tools of Sin'a at all!
>
>   
Apparently the Chofetz Chaim distinguished between a wayward individual 
and a group of deviant people who are undermining the community.

The Mishna Berura in Biur Halacha (1:1), bottom of page 8, "However if a 
person is in a place where there are apikorsim who rebel against the 
Torah and want to make some decree concerning public matters and because 
of that will cause the people to transgress G-d's will. You should 
approach them peacefully but if they won't listen ... it is a mitzva to 
hate them and to fight them and to nullify their desgns in any way 
possible. We know that Dovid (Tehilim 139:21-2) said 'I hate those who 
hate You and I will fight against those who rebel against You and I hate 
them with pure hatred.' "

Daniel Eidensohn

I would like to apologize.  The book I quoted from was BeAhava UVeEmuna by Rav Aviner, which is on Kitvei HaRav Kook (the source is from the same CD, which contains both Kitvei HaRav Kook and related writings by other rabbis).

The content is based on teachings of Rav Kook ZT"L.

Shoshana L. Boublil
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From: "Daniel Eidensohn" <yadmoshe@012.net.il>
To: "A High-Level Torah Discussion Group" <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>; 
"Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@bezeqint.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ahavat Yisrael


> Reb' Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
>> Actually, Rav Aviner [note correction] quotes the Chafetz Chaim in his 
>> book "Ahavat Chesed". The Chafetz Chaim quotes Rabbi Yehonatan Vohliner: 
>> The Din that it is allowed or a Mitzva to hate people that don't follow 
>> the straight path, is only after you reproved (Hochichuhu), but it is 
>> forbidden to hate him until all the options have been tried.  And, as the 
>> Tana'im have already informed us "Temeihani Im Yesh BaDor HaZeh 
>> SheYode'ah LeHochi'ach" (Arachin 16b) Mimeila, it is forbidden (!!!!-SLB) 
>> to hate anyone.
>>
>> Rav Aviner [corr. based on Rav Kook]continues that nowadays, we are not 
>> supposed to use the educational tools of Sin'a at all!

We know that Dovid (Tehilim 139:21-2) said 'I hate those who
> hate You and I will fight against those who rebel against You and I hate 
> them with pure hatred.' "

Rav Aviner, in a previous paragraph in the same section (available below in 
Hebrew for those who can read it) states that from the fact that we are 
Metzuveh to aid this person we hate when Chamor Sonacha Roveitz Tachat 
Massa'o, we learn that this is not an absolute hatred.  As the Mishneh 
Berurah says: we tell him we explain to him, and if despite this he refuses 
to listen, then we show him the face of hatred, of anger, that we are 
displeased with him. For the result of hate -- is hate.  This is an 
educational device. But Chas VeChalila, we are forbidden to truly hate Adam 
MiYisrael!

SLB



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????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????.

Anyway, the solution to all these issues is quite simple. Raise a herd
of dairy Beney Pekuah cows. Such beasts are never disqualified due to
any internal or external blemishes. So we could raise a herd of
guaranteed non-teriefa cows and be positively assured that all the milk
came exclusively from KC, Kosher Cows. Is that Kashe LiVeRuRe?

There is an additional benefit. The Acharonim argue about the status of
a Ben Pekuah's milk; is it Chalav Shechuta and therefore Pareve or is it
Chalav of a "mother", an Eim (as in Lo SeVuShel BeChalav Imo) and
therefore "normal" milk? At least the ShaAr HaMelech and R Akiva Eiger
consider BP milk to be pareve.

I believe that Rabbi Moshe Heinemann was once toying with the notion of
setting up a Ben Pekuah Kosher herd for meat production. Has anyone
heard of such a thing?

Meir

=======================================================
See Mishnah Halachot 16:130 - he specifically states that the fact that
no one ever tried the ben pakuah route proves it was not needed!  The
basic thrust of the tshuva aiui is that it's ridiculous but I'm looking
for a compelling reason that differentiates it from other cases,
especially given the high % of treifot reported.

KT
Joel Rich


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R' Eli Turkel:
BTW in a similar vein we had a discussion in our shul of the ramifications
pf being a "chaver" in the days of the Temple or shortly thereafter. The
case in the gemara is that if one's coat falls and someone else picks it up
then the coat is tameh. One certainly can't 
shake hands with most people. We have discussed the problems of men and
women shaking hands in a business setting. I can just see telling one's boss
or customer than you cannot shake his hand because he is an am haaartez! 
Being a cohen or chaver was quite restrictive to ones social life




Indeed, Tosfos (Kesubos 62b s.v D'havah) explains that this was the reason
why R' Akiva, before he became one, would want to "bite them like a donkey
does" (see Pesachim 49b).

KT,
MYG

Joel Rich commented: we don't x-ray cows to ensure they're not treifot (and
may drink their milk) because it is kashe lvarrer. I know there is a tshuvah
(I think it was the minchat Yitzchak) who was asked about setting up a
"hashgacha" of this type and he basically dismissed it out of hand (I can
find it if anyone is interested).


Yes please, would you find that Teshuvah you were referring to?

Can X-ray or other scanning show the soft tissue damage that renders animals
Tereifos?

How often would the dairy cows need to be so examined? Would once a year be
adequate or perhaps it might be done monthly? I suppose we might have even
within this super hashgocha a variety of levels, once, twice and thrice
annually. And what would those who never drink milk be known as?

It is an interesting exercise to contemplate what obligations might we have
once such milk is made available. Would we be obligated to use the superior
K milk?

Anyway, the solution to all these issues is quite simple. Raise a herd of
dairy Beney Pekuah cows. Such beasts are never disqualified due to any
internal or external blemishes. So we could raise a herd of guaranteed
non-teriefa cows and be positively assured that all the milk came
exclusively from KC, Kosher Cows. Is that Kashe LiVeRuRe?

There is an additional benefit. The Acharonim argue about the status of a
Ben Pekuah's milk; is it Chalav Shechuta and therefore Pareve or is it
Chalav of a "mother", an Eim (as in Lo SeVuShel BeChalav Imo) and therefore
"normal" milk? At least the ShaAr HaMelech and R Akiva Eiger consider BP
milk to be pareve.

I believe that Rabbi Moshe Heinemann was once toying with the notion of
setting up a Ben Pekuah Kosher herd for meat production. Has anyone heard of
such a thing?

meir

> Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 17:58:08 +0100
> From: "Chana Luntz" <chana@kolsassoon.org.uk>
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] chumrah of Sefardim

> And RKB wrote:

>> I do this as much as possible. The sepharadi shuls here are makpid to
>> only serve water challah.

> I think there are two aspects to ROY's psak:
>
> A) that if a sephardi is making hamotzei he can only do so on water
> chala;
> B) he cannot be yotzei with an Ashkenazi who is making hamotzei on sweet
> chala.
>
> Even if you hold A) and I think a lot of Sephardim do, that does not
> necessarily mean that you hold B).  If you hold, as my husband (and his
> Rav) does that if one is invited out the correct procedure is to be
> yotzei on the kiddush/hamotzei of the baal habayis

My husband has an interesting custom that could be connected to this.  When 
we have guests, his minhag is that "Orei'ach Mekadesh and Ba'al HaBayit 
Botze'a".

When offered the option at homes where we visit -- he offers this minhag and 
is willing to do the kiddush, but leaves the hamotzi to the Ba'al HaBayit.

The rational offered is that the Ba'al HaBayit wishes to honor the guest. 
But, if he would give him Hamotzi, there may be a problem - the Ba'al 
HaBayit uses a knife/doesn't while the guest does the opposite;  the guest 
could hand out pieces that are considered too big or too small by Ba'al 
HaBayit's standards.

So the result is that the guest does the kiddush and the host the Hamotzi.

> and if one takes the
> view that if it is OK for him, one can rely on his standards, then even
> if one holds A) one is not required to bring one's own challos
>(Note you can have the same problem with kiddush, as ROY
> and others hold that a lot of the traditional Ashkenazi kiddush wines
> (ie the very sweet ones) take a shehakol

It is easier (usually) to find another bottle of wine that would be suitable 
for the Sephardi guest than to find another challa. One can discuss the wine 
on the table and ask if a different wine is also available. Most hosts will 
gladly bring the alternate bottle, and if the guest is nice about it, the 
host won't be insulted (which is VERY important).

So, this minhag matches accepting A, a Sefardi needs a non-sweet challah for 
Hamotzi and not accepting B -- that is, one can be yotzei if the other is 
yotzei, even if by themselves they wouldn't have been, and that the Sephardi 
guest maintains his halachah, and without insulting the host.

Shoshana L. Boublil

R' Michael Kopinsky asked:
Does anyone know of psakim on the permissibility/recommendability of
davening netz, thereby missing tefillah b'tzibbur?

You will find it in the the Biur Halocho on 58:1 - Umitzva Min Hamuvchar:
"Know that those who are careful to read Shma with the sunrise may do
so, and daven by themselves, if they don't have a minyan. More than
that, from the Mishna  in Brachos 22  it seems that you may do so even
without Tefilin."

(This refers to the Mishna that says that if you're in the mikve when
the sun's about to rise you may muddy the waters and say Shma.)

- Danny (who missed davening at sunrise about half a dozen times in
the past decade.)

I would like to move the Ahavat Yisrael/ hating thread in another 
direction - more machshava related.

When we talk about Ahava, Rav Dessler and many others before him make it 
clear that there are 2 kinds of Ahava.

a) I love a banana
b) I love Hashem.

Both use the same verb, but with regard to the banana, "I" am the focus of 
the love. It is a type of self-love. Loving Hashem, OTOH, is something 
totally different it is "Ko'ach HaNetina" the potential force of giving/ the 
will to give.  As in the saying why did Hashem create the world? - b/c he 
loves Israel, that is, Hashem expressed his love by giving.  It is not 
focused on self, it is focused on the other.

We see this in many sources.  I think that the most impressive is the story 
of Rabbi Akiva, here is a rabbi, a Tanna, whose love for his wife is 
detailed and presented for all to learn from, but when he faces death at the 
hands of the Romans he questions whether he has reached the level of being 
able to love Hashem "BeChol Nafshecha".  Davka he asks this question.

It teaches us that Ahava is something completely different from the 
every-day colloquial usage of the word love, le'ehov.

My question was whether it's possible that when the term hate comes up, it 
also has several meanings and intentions.  From what I've been reading, it 
appears so.

There is the regular hate: "I hate bananas; I hate beans; I hate 
terrorists".  All these hates are based on self: what I like; what I suffer 
from. They are external manifestations of our most basic needs and fears. 
They are the opposite of the self-interest of loving a banana discussed 
above.

When discussing a Sonei that one is supposed to help, we see some elements 
of this issue.  The Sonei is someone you hate, yet you are supposed to 
assist him, which is a manifestation of Ahava, an aspect of Ahavat Hashem.

When we examine this in our daily lives, we know that when we hate someone, 
we want nothing to do with them.  That is a basic aspect of normal hatred. 
And indeed many who profess to hate someone for whatever reason (and yes, 
including that they are insulting Hashem by their actions) don't want to 
have anything to do with these people.

But the pasuk, and Tosefot in Pesachim note that if we don't have anything 
to do with this Sonei, and note that the Sonei is defined by everyone (incl. 
the Mishna Berura) as someone who [by you personally?] was told off and 
shown the error of his ways, and he continued them.  The hatred here is not 
b/c "you don't like him".  It is something else.  And Tosefot says that if 
you were to turn you back on him, this would increase Sin'a -- AND THIS IS 
UNACCEPTABLE!!!  If we were talking about regular hate, this sentence would 
not make sense!

But, if the Sin'a here is, as many sources note, an educational device; a 
way to make it clear to the transgressor how far he has moved off the path, 
then things come together.  You make it clear that you disaprove of his 
actions, but as you are Oheiv Yisrael, in the higher level of the concept, 
and b/c you are not allowed to Lisno Achicha Bil'Vavcha, you therefore aid 
him/his donkey when they need it.

I would like to finish with the thought that insulting the other is a human 
condition.  Hashem does not "get insulted".  The fact is that Hashem appears 
not to mind if people are Ovrei Aveira even and including Avodah Zara -- if 
they express Ahavat Yisrael to ALL members of Yisrael, and live their lives 
as one nation.  The Nach and Midreshei Chazal discuss this in many cases, 
and not just the famous one at the time of Omri.

So, perhaps, instead of taking Sin'a down to its lowest level, we should 
take Ahava up to its highest.

Shoshana L. Boublil

R' Michael Kopinsky wrote:
> I believe that the requirements for wine for kiddush are
> more stringent than those for it to be hagafen. For example,
> according to Ashkenazi psak (correct when/if I err), a drink
> of 40% grape juice and 60% pear/apple juice is hagafen, but
> is not good for kiddush or havdalah.

Sounds reasonable, but I don't recall seeing such a view inside. I 
thought that the hagafen and kiddush requirements are identical. (I 
do concede that there are probably some machlokesim where we are 
lenient for both hagafen and kiddush, but we'd be machmir for 
korbanos.)

Do you have any sources that the requirements for kiddush and hagafen 
are different?

> Is B'rov am relevant for hamotzi?  Kiddush is a mitzvah,
> hamotzi is not. In my Yeshiva, they are makpid that only
> one person makes kiddush for everyone, but hamotzi is made
> separately at each table.

I do not understand. If "rov am" is not relevant for hamotzi, then 
hamotzi would be made by each person individually, not one person for 
the whole table. My guess is that at your yeshiva, they feel that rov 
am *is* relevant to hamotzi, and it is by table (rather than for the 
whole room) mainly to minimize the hefsek when distributing the 
pieces of bread, which is not an issue if they simply answer Amen to 
kiddush without distributing the wine from the kos shel bracha.

> If the correct bracha (for you) on this food is mezonos, why
> are you yotzei with my hamotzi?  I don't know of a rule that
> hamotzi works b'dieved on cakes etc, the way Shehakol works
> on anything, and mezonos (acc. to the Gra) works on all foods.

You're right, Hamotzi doesn't work on cake the way Shehakol works on 
anything. Namely: Shehakol works because it is a very general bracha, 
and works the same way as Haadamah will work on an apple. In this 
regard, Hamotzi fails on cake the way Haetz fails on a carrot.

Or, more accurately, Hamotzi fails on a bowl of oatmeal (which is 
vadai Mezonos) the way Haetz fails on a carrot. Similarly, Hamotzi 
fails on thin-crust fruit pie (which meets all 3 criteria for Pas 
Habaa BKisnin, and so is vadai Mezonos) the way Haetz fails on a 
carrot.

But cake is different. Under certain conditions, the proper bracha 
for cake is indeed Hamotzi, even for a Sefaradi who would eat enough 
of it, and it is therefore conceivable that Hamotzi might work 
(b'dieved) even for smaller amounts.

In other words, Hamotzi doesn't work on cake the way Shehakol works 
on anything, but Hamotzi might work on cake via a different method.

I'd like to thank Rabbi Bodner's "The Halachos of Brochos", page 226, 
note 16, for showing me this logic. For those who do not have that 
sefer, he lists several references, the most accessible of which is 
probably the Chayei Adam 58:1, in his Nishmas Adam notes, #58:1.

Akiva Miller

Zvi Lampel wrote:
> It is not so poshut to go from the classical cases of temporarily 
> interrupting one's learning for doing an immediately necessary deed 
> that required no training, to the kind of training and more permanent 
> time commitment that preparing for Zaka requires, and certainly to 
> the time and effort needed to become a medic in preparation for 
> situations not yet in existence (although of course predictably they 
> will be). In the first case, Talmud Torah remains the kevius, as 
> opposed to in the other two cases.
The Shulhan Arukh requires (YD 245:1) kvias ittim day and night.  It 
recommends (ibid. 21, especially in the Rama) that in order for divrei 
Torah to be "miskayymim" that one make them ikkar and other occupations 
tafel.  It is this second form of kevius that you are recommending, yet, 
as far as I can tell, there's no halachic requirement for a person to 
ensure that his divrei Torah be "miskayymim".

Furthermore the prohibition of interrupting Talmud Torah is expressed as 
"hayah l'fanav" (ibid. 18). which seems to mean interrupting ittim 
kevuim rather than any potential opportunity to learn.

As an example, my own doctor, in addition to working at a teaching 
hospital and running his private practice manages to be president of the 
shul and to be kovea ittim.  I've never understood the halachic meaning 
of the phrase "not so poshut" (I hope RZL will translate into Rabbinnic 
Hebrew), but I think his behavior is not only unobjectionable, but even 
admirable.

David Riceman



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