Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 97

Fri, 04 May 2007

• 1. Re: unity (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Fw: fashion models and opera singers (Micha Berger)
• 5. Special Case of Name-calling (Jonathan Baker)
• 6. Re: Matza on Pesach Sheni (Dr. Josh Backon)
• 7. Re: Matza on Pesach Sheni (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 8. Re: Matza on Pesach Sheni (menucha)
• 9. Re: fashion models and opera singers (torahmike@gmail.com)
• 10. Re: Special Case of Name-Calling (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 11. chumrah of Sefardim (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: chumrah of Sefardim (mkopinsky@gmail.com)
• 13. Re: Special Case of Name-Calling (D&E-H Bannett)
• 14. Re: When do the malachim come? (MPoppers@kayescholer.com)
• 15. Re: fashion models and opera singers (Chana Luntz)

On Tue, May 1, 2007 12:23 pm, R Eli Turkel wrote:
: I think there are 2 levels of lechatchila:

: 1. In an ideal world minhag hamakom wins and there is only 1 minhag
: determined by the Sanhedrin (or perhaps 1 for each tribe)

: 2. Given the present status the lechatchila is for each community to
: follow minhag avot. There is no basis to impose unity....

I fail to see the consistency between your reisha and your seifa. I
seem to recall Aleinu's phrasing of our mission statement is that we
strive to create an ideal world, lesaqein olam bemalkhus Shakkai.
Thus, there is a basis to strive for unity.

The question is the means to do so. You seem to be saying there is no
such mechanism.

However, since Ashkenaz itself was once an amalgam of refugees who
normalized their minhagim into a single kehillah, one would think it
must be doable somehow.

To me the question wasn't whether we ought to have a single minhag,
but how one goes about doing so. I ruled out fiat because it would
seem that by definition, one can't be gozeir a minhag. But this idea
was already pointed out as being flawed since it only leaves the
alternative of minhag evolving by people who defy their minhag avos to
follow their neighbors -- making a virtue of forgetfulness or
intentionally breaking minhag.

: In EY there are few generally accepted country-wide minhagim by
: they are rare. Though I have not made a study I suspect that this
: occurred when the Gra and/or Shulchan Arukh haRav agreed with
: Sefardi psak against the Ramah. For example not wearing tefillin on
: chol hamoed or saying She-he-chiyanu at a Brit Milah.

Well, that makes sense since talmidei haGra, Chabad and Sepharadim
comprised nearly all of the yishuv hayashan.

However, here we again see the existence a mechanism for changing
minhag. Some condemned groups like talmidei haGra for changing their
minhagim, just as the Gra himself objected when Chassidim did so. And
yet, they still stand as strong precedent on the strength of their own
members. The notion that one may change minhag must have been held by
the Briskers as well. RSRH. The list goes on quite a bit.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, April 25, 2007 3:38 pm, Rn Ilana Sober wrote:
: I am wondering if this is a fair question. Can't we say - harbeh
: shlichim lamakom - if the US hadn't gotten the bomb, HKBH would have
: engineered the end of the war differently. Perhaps, in an alternate
: history, the Allies would have won without killing so many Japanese
: in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
:
: I agree with the basic premise that many Jews who did not go into
: learning have made great contributions in other fields - whether to
: humanity in general or on a smaller scale to their own patients,
: clients, students, etc.

Mordechai dealt with this question. I do not think harbei shelichim
laMaqom is the lesson I would take from "mi yodei'ah im la'eis kazos
higat lamalkhus". Harbei shelichim laMaqom is descriptive, not
prescriptive. All else being equal, we should try to be that shaliach.

The truth is that my decision to invest time in limudei chol has to
depend on issues like whether I value TIDE, whether I agree with
RSRH's assessment that he had a chiyuv to enjoy the beauty Hashem gave
the Alps, whether I believe in TuM, etc...

That's a totally different question than trying to understanding
Hashem's decision to make this genius a tinoq shenishba who is never
put in a situation that would spawn a temptation toward learning, and
that less bright individual given every chance to see Torah's beauty
and thus it likely he would choose to learn more.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, April 27, 2007 3:42 am, R Samuel Svarc wrote:
: Experientially, this is a disproven perspective. The two greatest
: examples of people who spent their lives in an "ivory tower" are
: the Gra and the Chazon Ish....

Both of whom made a point of studying math and science.

Despite the legends about the CI's knowledge of medicine, his nephew
attests that the CI studied medicine in his younger years in Europe.
Autodidactically, but still quite seriously and for many hours.

The Gra's knowledge of math, science and music are legendary.

(People didn't spend time studying subjects in outhouses, the stench
precludes anything but getting finished as quickly as possible. Nor
did they have lighting by which to read more than a small hole in the
top of the door. Even if we didn't have family testimony and the Gra's
own statements otherwise, those legends are implausible.)

They actually stand as counterexamples to your assertion that the
perspective is disproven. They both did take time from learning.

As do the usual Torah-and sources. As does Kelm's gymnasia, or
Volozhin's Russian language classes, or... Both Volozhin and Slabodka
talmidim were expected to invest real time in limudei chol -- outside
of formal classes. RAEK writes of the heated debates they had in
Slabodka about the merits and problems of thinkers like Kant, Marx and
Freud. (Not to mention the chess tournaments.) Truth is, one would be
very hard pressed to find a historical source for as hard of a line as
you are taking.

On this note, it's one thing to say "I don't hold like XYZ." It's
another to deny that RSRH, the Seridei Eish, RYBS, et al hold a
"disproven perspective".

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, April 30, 2007 5:37 am, saul mashbaum wrote:
: The mishna says "V'hevi dan et kol haadam l'kaf zchut". This is
: usually taken to mean "Judge everyone favorably." However, one may
: inquire why instead of the word "adam" (cf "Eizehu chacham? Halomed
: mikol adam"). , the mishna writes "haadam".  It is possible to say
: that when considering our relation to someone, and evaluating his
: actions, one should take into consideration the totality of his
: actions ("kol haadam", all of the person), and thus reach a favorable
: conclusion.

Or perhaps we could explain it using Tosfos's he'arah. "Adam"
sometimes means all people under discussion (usually, all Jews), as in
"adam ki yamus ba'ohel. However, they explain that "ha'adam" always
means "all human beings", ie "And it should be that you judge all of
the human species on the [balance scale] cup of merit."

On Mon, April 30, 2007 1:22 am, Samuel Svarc wrote:
:>Of course they're wrong; we _can_ judge the actions. In the case of
:>tinok shenishbah, what we cannot judge is how guilty (and liable)
:> they are.

: Of course one can. In certain aveiros (such as shabbos) they aren't
: liable, in certain aveiros (such as murder) they are liable.

Actually, liability is commesurate with a person's ability to know it
is assur. Whether that means intellectual knowledge, or veshinantam
levanekha, know deep in your bone so that they shape your judgement,
is an interesting debate.

We might know the clearcut cases; murder is obviously more of a
mitzvah sikhli than Shabbos is. But gradations depend on the person's
history in ways only the Borei can judge.

...
: R' Sholom used to say, when it's your Yankel, then you're not
: ambivalent. When shabbos means as much to you as your bank account,
: you shriek. When someone rips you off, you're not ambivalent about
: it; you say, "That person, he's a ganef!". When someone rips off the
: Ribona Shel Olam, it's the same thing... if it's your Yankel.

When Yankel falls and hurts himself, a mature adult doesn't geshrei in
front of Yankel and make him more upset.

I would think that the lesson to take from RSSchwadron's maaseh is
that you should want to geshrei, but you should think first and figure
out what will actually help the situation.

Not wanting to scream is wrong. Screaming when it will simply push
people further into trouble is also wrong, and *may* flag a need to
double check the authenticity of one's motives.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

From: "Yisrael Medad" <yisrael.medad@gmail.com>
 
> I was just informed that at a brit today in Israel, the family received a
> psak from Rav Mordechai Eliahu @ 11 pm last night on whether you can name
> the infant for someone who was alive when the baby was born and saw him.
> Said 'yes'.
 
They needed to escalate it that high?  My friend named his son after his
father; the grandfather died between the baby's birth and bris.  

--
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

>Somewhat off topic, but a very interesting pshat in "kol haochel 
>matza erev Pesach keilu bo`eil arusaso beveis chamiv" is that the 
>latter does the action before nissuin, which are accompanied by 
>sheva brachot. The matza leil haseder is eaten after saying sheva 
>brachot: 1) hagafen 2) mkadesh Yisrael vhazmanim 3) shehechyanu 4) 
>haadama 5) asher gaalanu 6) hamotzi 7) al achilat matza. Thus one 
>who eats matza before the seder is skipping sheva brachot, as is 
>bo`eil arusaso beveis chamiv.
>I don't know who says this..


See my post:
  http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol07/v07n007.shtml#18

Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 19:34 +0200
From: BACKON@vms.HUJI.AC.IL
Subject: 
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol07//avodah/getindex.cgi?section=E#EATING 
MATZA EREV PESSACH>Eating matza Erev Pessach



I see no one indicates that the source of NOT eating matza erev pessach
is in a Yerushalmi Pessachim 68b which equates eating matza erev Pessach
with *ha'bah al arusato b'veit chamav* ! The Bavli Pessachim 49a which
deals Erev Pessach she'chal b'Shabbat happens to mention a case of
"v'le'echol seudat eirusin b'veit chamav". Was the lashon of the
Yerushalmi an aggadic rather than an halachic proscription ??
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Kol Tuv

Josh

R. Saul Mashbaum cites a nice vort, writing:

<a very interesting pshat in "kol haochel matza erev Pesach keilu 
bo`eil arusaso beveis chamiv" is that the latter does the action 
before nissuin, which are accompanied by sheva brachot. The matza 
leil haseder is eaten after saying sheva brachot: 1) hagafen 2) 
mkadesh Yisrael vhazmanim 3) shehechyanu 4) haadama 5) asher gaalanu 
6) hamotzi 7) al achilat matza. Thus one who eats matza before the 
seder is skipping sheva brachot, as is bo`eil arusaso beveis chamiv. 
I don't know who says this.
A quibble: when the seder is moztaei Shabbat, there are two more 
brachot said: ner and havdala. However, one may say that these 
brachot, although said at the seder, are not part of the seder per se
A further observation is that this vort goes better according to the 
Sfardic practice, according to which IIUC hagafen is not said over 
the second kos. Otherwise we have 8 brachot, and would have to come 
up with some reason that ine of the brachot  "doesn't count". Maybe 
the origin of the pshat is Sfardic.>

     Havdala should not be considered a problem, since in *most* 
years it is seven brachos.

     The list, however, omits one bracha which all say: al n'tilas 
yadayim.  I think, therefore, that it is an Ashkenazi vort, and that 
the seven brachos are the three of kiddush, ha'adama, asher g'alanu, 
hagefen on the second kos, and n'tilas yadayim.  The motzi and the 
matzo are not counted as brachos that come *before* matza; they are 
the brachos of the matza itself.

EMT 

Bigdei Yesha beshem MHR"I Veil.
menucha


Dr. Josh Backon wrote:

>>Somewhat off topic, but a very interesting pshat in "kol haochel 
>>matza erev Pesach keilu bo`eil arusaso beveis chamiv" is that the 
>>latter does the action before nissuin, which are accompanied by 
>>sheva brachot. .....
>>I don't know who says this..
>>    
>>
>
>
>S
>  
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20070504/ad56b9f6/attachment-0001.html 

>>The difference(me:  between going around in a bikini and singing) is that
Lifnei Iver is violated in that the viewer of a woman in a bikini likely
would have sexual thoughts?hirhurim. The listener to a female singer in an
opera likely would not, nowadays. Hence, no Lifnei Iver.
>>A women's voice is still  ervah in that Chaza"l decreed that one may not
recite a davar shebik'dusha while hearing her sing, regardless of the
presence or absence of hirhurim. But that is a different Halachic category.
>>Rabbi Yehuda Henkin

    Does this mean you pasken kol isha is muttar lechatchila nowadays except
for devarim shebikedusha? That's a chiddush.
    Also, the previous poster said that walking around in a bikini is assur
in front of non-jews. Is there any problem causing hirhurim for goyim? What
if it's possible there are jews there, but it
is impossbile to tell, and they are a meeut? Are they batel b'rov?
                              KT,

Mike Wiesenberg
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20070503/55dec53c/attachment.htm 

<<< I was just informed that at a brit today in Israel, the family 
received a psak from Rav Mordechai Eliahu @ 11 pm last night on 
whether you can name the infant for someone who was alive when the 
baby was born and saw him. Said 'yes'. >>>

An anecdotal raayah for the same psak, would be a story I've heard 
many times of where the baby's father (grandfather?) was near death, 
and they wanted to delay the bris until after, so that they could 
name the baby after him.

The rav's psak was to do the bris sooner, rather than later, so that 
the mitzvah would be an additional zechus for his. They did so, and 
the patient recovered. (Anyone recall this story, and who it was 
about?)

The relevance to the current thread is that the family's havamina was 
that there's no problem naming the baby after someone who was still 
alive when the baby was born.

Akiva Miller

In past posts people have discussed various kulot of Sefardim.
In his latest halacha yomit ROY paskens that a Sefardi is not
yotzeh with sweet chalah for Lechem Mishneh (and its berachah is
mezonot). He specifically states that a Sefardi that visits an Ashkenazi
for shabbat meal has to either request chalah without any sugar or
else to bring his own challot.

I wonder how many edot mizrach actaually do this?

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20070504/76130490/attachment-0001.html 

On 5/4/07, Eli Turkel <eliturkel@gmail.com> wrote:
> In past posts people have discussed various kulot of Sefardim.
> In his latest halacha yomit ROY paskens that a Sefardi is not
> yotzeh with sweet chalah for Lechem Mishneh (and its berachah is
> mezonot). He specifically states that a Sefardi that visits an Ashkenazi
> for shabbat meal has to either request chalah without any sugar or
> else to bring his own challot.
>
> I wonder how many edot mizrach actaually do this?
>
> --
> Eli Turkel
>

L'maaseh, if you are koveiah seudah, you have to make hamotzi (and do
Netilas Yadayim) on the sweet chalah as well.  So why wouldn't it count
for lechem mishneh?

KT,
Michael

As Sefaradim name babies after living persons, usually a 
grandparent, R' Eliyahu's p'sak is not a surprise but just 
every-day normal.

David 

In Avodah Digest V23#95, RDMI responded to RDK:
>> ... in Germany they would only say Lecha Dodi from the shulchan;  l?chu
neranena was said from the amud. <<
> I cannot answer your question, but I can tell you that the only
time I davened kabbalas Shabbos in a Yekke shul (somewhere in
Talpiot, I think, but I don't remember the name) I was told to dave
all of kabbalas Shabbos from the bima.  So I don't think the
practice you describe is universal among Yekkes. <
I'm not surprised by RDMI's report, but I will note that the practice in
KAJ/"Breuer's" (minhag Frankfurt) is as described by RDK.  Thanks.

A guten Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20070504/dea69dd8/attachment.htm 

RTK wrote:

> In a message dated 5/2/2007, chana@kolsassoon.org.uk writes:
> >>Note that this issue comes up in a whole myriad of contexts - your
> husband may well face it, at least indirectly, if he sells 
> CDs and such to not such religious Jews - how does he know 
> they won't play them on shabbas?<< [--RCL]
> >>>>>

...
   A CD can certainly be played on weekdays, thus my 
> husband has no obligation to make sure that his customers do 
> in fact play CDs only on weekdays. 

A CD certainly can be played on weekdays.  However, if we assume that it
is normal for the owner of a CD to play it at least seven times, then,
statistically, one would expect that any person who paid no attention to
the days of the week is highly likely to play it on shabbas at least
once.  (In reality the statistical probability may well be higher, as
during the week people are busy with work and school, so that the time
for recreational activities such as CD playing is more likely to be at
weekends).  I agree that your husband has no idea which of his customers
will pay the CD on weekdays and which on shabbas, but if you argue that
the issur of lifnei iver is to help a person to commit an averah, then,
for the one that did play it on shabbas, that would seem to be what he
would end up doing.  The case of cheese blintzes and chopped liver is
slightly less analogous, as I don't think that it would be statistically
likely that anybody would eat them together (it would become analogous
if they were two items that non frum people generally put together).  On
the other hand, the case of the opera singer seems more like the case of
your husband (if you assume that a non Jew may hear a woman singing and
a Jew may not, which is of course an assumption, as I suspect there are
opinions that go against both of these).  It is quite possible that on
any given night, the entire audience is not Jewish.  It may be
statistically unlikely (depending on the demographics of the town), and
over time it may be completely statistically unlikely that she will
never sing to a Jew, but as she does not vet the audience, her knowledge
base is more comparable to your husband's - who also does not know that
an issur will be committed with the CD he sold.  This is unlike the
lawyer case where, because the lawyer meets his clients as individuals,
he is likely to know that the particular client in question is Jewish
and violating halacha.  That is why the lawyer case seems the strongest
of them all from a purely lifnei iver viewpoint.

> --Toby Katz
> =============

Shabbat Shalom (and very close to it, I had really better get of the
computer and go do some last minute things and light - it is always
weird to think that you are probably still miles away from shabbas yet)

Chana


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 23, Issue 97
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."