Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 93

Wed, 02 May 2007

• 1. Re: Right vs. Wrong; Tzaddik vs. Rasha (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 2. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 3. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Rich, Joel)
• 4. tachanun - avel, chattan & brit (Eli Turkel)
• 5. pesach sheni (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: Puzzling Tragum Yonosons... (SBA)
• 7. Re: Puzzling Tragum Yonosons (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 8. Re: what actually is the issur (M Cohen)
• 9. Re: Matza on Pesach Sheni (David E Cohen)
• 10. "Yeshiva is a mikva." (SBA)
• 11. Re: pesach sheni (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Doron Beckerman)
• 13. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Rich, Joel)

R'n Boublil:
*When it comes to "the other", I face a complex issue.
*
*Yes, I know what's right or wrong, but I don't know what they are thinking
*or why they are acting as they are doing so.  I recall a tale, several
*years
*ago, of a person who got stoned on Shabbat for driving his car -- and he
*was
*in the process of saving a life.

I agree with R'n Boublil's general thrust, but I think the problem presented
is more complex than she states it. Let's say we have a person Yankel, who
is a Tzaddik Gamur - except that once, he was Malbin P'nei Chaveiro, or one
of the other things which Chazal tell us Ein Lo Cheilek L'olam HaBah.
Compare him to Berel, who is an Am HaAretz Gamur, intentionally transgresses
many Aveiros, and does something that is Koneh Oilamos B'sha'ah Achas. 
What if we are unaware of the anomalous behavior of these people (Yankel's
sin and Berel's Mitzvah)? We would clearly say that Yankel is better. The
truth, however is, that Yankel is obviously the one to emulate, but it's
Berel who is going to Olam Habah! So we were wrong in our judgment of Berel
(even though he might actually have the Halachic status of a Rashah, we were
still wrong in what we thought - that he had no redeeming factor.) So,
besides the fact that R'n Boublil is right that it is impossible to know all
the circumstances surrounding every given action, even if we _do_ know all
the circumstances, we still don't know the entire person. 
Do we have to judge their actions? Probably, for various practical (like I
said) and spiritual (like R' MSS said) reasons. But we still can't judge the
person, and we have to leave room open that we are wrong about the actions.
The only situation we have that we can judge the actions independent of the
person is in Beis Din. It is only by Beis Din that we say, Ein L'dayin Ela
Mah She'einav Ro'os. Thus, even though Chazal say that Gadol Aveirah L'shma
Yoser M'mitzvah She'lo L'shmah, if someone is Mekoshesh Eitzim with Eidim
and Hasra'ah, he gets killed. 

*As for the source in Pesachim quoted, we should recall that when Hillel
*HaZaken and Rabbi Akiva chose to give a single sentence that embodies all
*of Torah, they used terms that were connected to caring, not hating.  They
*were concerned with our own actions more than with what "the other" was
*doing.

I saw a great Vort this Shabbos from one of the Apta Rebbes: He once
publicly lectured that every word in the Torah is Meramez to V'ahavta
L'rei'acha Kamocha. It was Parashas Balak, and a skeptic in the audience
challenged him to find a Remez in the word "Balak." He answered that "Balak"
is Roshei Teivos of "V'ahavta L'rei'acha Kamocha." The person said, "What do
tou mean? 'Vais' is not the same as 'vov', and 'kuf' is not the same as
'kaf'! The Rebbe answered, "That's precisely it - if you concentrate on the
small things that separate us, then you won't ever have V'ahavta L'rei'acha
Kamocha!"  

KT,
MYG

P.S. After I wrote this, I feel like I rambled a bit, for which I apologize.
I hope my point comes through. 

R'n CL:
*It depends what you mean by talmud torah.  A
*TUM perspective is that the talmud torah is of a better quality if the
*mada aspect of life is explored - that is very clear from R' Lamm's
*books.  So if talmud torah is kneged kulam then a better quality may
*well be better (even if it is a better quality earned at the expense of
*quantity).  That is also why I was saying that Torah u'Parnasa is
*different from TUM -ie Torah u'Madda.  Madda, ie literally science, is
*about the knowledge of the secular world, and the need to explore it in
*order to better strengthen one's Torah understanding.

The problem I have with this is that it doesn't seem to be very practical.
First, an assumption (and if we disagree, then my argument is moot): Not
_every_ aspect of Mada will enhance the quality of Talmud Torah. So,
although the Gra reportedly felt that it is imperative to learn math and he
knew Euclid's work well, we have no source that he felt it was important to
be versed in the oeuvre of Tiepolo.
Now, how will one know that his Mada studies will enhance the quality of his
Torah study? One of three ways. 1) By accident. (I can't begin to tell you
how happy I was to understand a Rashi that referenced niello-work just a few
days after I happened to read about it in the dormitory bathroom's
Britannica.) 2) By design - you already know that learning this will help
your learning, as others have already trodden this path. Learning the Ayil
Meshulash is a good example, or listening to the Kuzari about music, or to
your teachers who identify any specific field or topic as beneficial. 3) By
hit-or-miss. You study as much Mada of whatever variety you can find or are
interested in, and you hope that some of it will be useful. This is
different from the first method, because there your intention was not even
to study - some Mada that you picked up happened to be useful. Here, you try
to make that accident repeat itself using the brute-force method - cram as
much Mada into your head as possible, so that there is a large likelihood
that some of it will be useful in enhancing the quality of your Torah
knowledge. 
The problem with the first method is that there is much Torah that will not
be understood fully because of the fluky nature of this method. The problem
with the third method is that it's extremely inefficient and still leaves
the possibility of being unsuccessful - what if your particular interests
don't coincide with any Torah you learn?
If I had to stereotype, I would say that the most right wing of Torah Jews
favor the first method (or possibly even less than that). The most left wing
probably tend to favor the third method (or less than that - where Mada
becomes an end in itself). Personally, as should already be obvious, I favor
the second method.
Just for the record, I'm not positive that R'n CL disagrees with me - but
thank you either way, R'n CL, for the opportunity to share my thoughts!

KT,
MYG  

 
 
5) I think your comments on TuM enhancing understanding that Torah is
the Chochmah of the Borei are not in sync with the Torah's Hashkafah.  
=================================================================
Do you think that there is one "torah hashkafa" and that all baalei
hashkafa are really saying the same thing? 
KT
Joel Rich 
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We recently had an avel in shiva in our minyan. A quick check verified
that one says tachanun. It is only in the house of the shiva that tachanun
is not said. OTOH tachanun is omitted if there is a chatan in the
minyan. For a Brit Milah it is omitted even if the Brit is at another
minyan in the same shul even if none of the participants are at this
particular minyan. The question is
1. why does shiva not affect Tachanun of the tzibbur (not in his house)
2. A chatan stops Tachanun but only in his minyan
3. A Brit stops tachanun in all minyanim in the same shul

kol tuv

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<There are sources for both, but lich'orah only the latter makes sense.
Of course there is still a chance that we will eat matzah that night,
not as a zecher lepesach sheni but as the pesach sheni itself.  In
which case matzah in the afternoon might very well be assur...>>

Most halachot of Pesach (Rishon) do not apply to Pesach sheni
Thus one can eat matzah even though he has chametz in the house (imo
babayit). Is there a source that one cannot eat matzoh erev pesach sheni (in
second Temple days) so he will eat it le-ta-avon at night just like erev
pesach.

I agree that eating matzah the night of Iyar 15 makes more sense.
nevertheless Tachanun is not said on Iyar 14 but is said on Iyar 15

-- 
Eli Turkel
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From: David Riceman <>
> "Beyad Ish Iti" it translates "Beyad gevar di mezamen min ishtakad".
Is there any source or reason (why) this person was arranged 
 a year ago?
>   
eshtakad is a contraction of "sha'ata kadma", which I would translate as 
"previously".  It often means "last year" in context, but that's a 
derivative meaning.
---



SBA

<<Acharei (16:21) on "Beyad Ish Iti" it translates "Beyad gevar di   
mezamen min ishtakad". Is there any source or reason (why) this 
person was arranged a year ago?>>
   
<<eshtakad is a contraction of "sha'ata kadma", which I would 
translate as "previously".  It often means "last year" in context, 
but that's a derivative meaning.>>

     Three reasons to disagree with that interpretation: (a) The 
Aruch translates it as "dos forige yahr."  (b) In every occurrence of 
the word in the g'mara, to the best of my recollection, its meaning 
is "last year."  (c) The fact that the word is written without an 
ayin indicates that it is not "sha'ata kadma," but rather "shata 
kadma," or as the Aruch writes it, "shata kadmisa," the previous year.

EMT

 

..my comments were only 'limud zechus' for the girl - clearly singing in
front
of nJewish men an activity that one would recommend that Jewish women s/
stay away from.


However, I'm not sure I understand the connection between your 2 examples.

Brothel ownership (even if not technically asur) is clearly an activity that
one would recommend that Jews s/ stay away from

However, being a plastic surgeon (even for enhancing of parts of females'
bodies) is mutar
(I wouldn't want my child to choose it for their career, but if asked a
shaila if such a career choice was mutar I would have to say yes)

Mordechai Cohen

-----Original Message-----
From: SBA [mailto:sba@sba2.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 10:12 PM
To: avodah
Cc: mcohen@touchlogic.com
Subject: what actually is the issur


From: "M Cohen" <>
..., what actually is the issur for a Jewish lady to sing in front
of nJewish men (ie when l'fnei iver is not an issue)?
>>

Which reminds me of a discussion recently, if there is any
issur (and if so, what?) to own a brothel - where all the
employees and customers are not mibnei bris?

This came up after someone claimed that the 'hetter' for a frum doctor
who has gone over to specialising in 'enhancing' the non-tzenius
parts of females' bodies, was, that he is osek bimelachto and
thus spared from hirhurim.

So the question arose re using a similar 'hetter' to operate a brothel.

R' Zev Sero wrote:
> Of course there is still a chance that we will eat matzah that
> night, not as a zecher lepesach sheni but as the pesach sheni
> itself.

It's not so clear that the Pesach Sheini would be brought if the Mikdash
were to be rebuilt between 14 Nisan and 14 Iyar.  R' Re'em Hakohen wrote an
article about this in last week's "Shabbat beShabbato."  The English version
can be found at
http://www.moreshet.co.il/web/alonparash/alon.asp?codeClient=632 -- choose
the "Acharei Mot / Kedoshim" edition from the drop-down menu.

RZS:
> In which case matzah in the afternoon might very well be assur...

I am doubtful of that as well.  On the night of Pesach Rishon, one eats
matzah both because of "...ba`erev tokhelu matzos" and because of
"...umatzos al merorim yokheluhu."  I suspect that the isur of matzah on
Erev Pesach stems from the former -- the independent chiyuv to each matzah
-- which is the flip side of the isur chameitz.

On Pesach Sheni, one eats matzah only as a din in the korban Pesach -- "al
matzos umrorim yokheluhu."  There is no independent chiyuv to eat matzah on
that night, and no isur chameitz.  Hence, there is no real mitzvah of
akhilas matzah that one would want to do with appetite, and no relevant
analogy to "bo`eil arusaso beveis chamiv."

--D.C.

From: T613K@aol.com
....the marriage of a BT man (who had  been frum a 
long time and had learned in mainstream yeshivos) and FFB  woman where my 
father said, in regard to the question of ben nidah, "Yeshiva is  a mikva."
>>

I heard similar beshem the CI.

SBA

Eli Turkel wrote:
> <<There are sources for both, but lich'orah only the latter makes sense.
> Of course there is still a chance that we will eat matzah that night,
> not as a zecher lepesach sheni but as the pesach sheni itself.  In
> which case matzah in the afternoon might very well be assur...>>
> 
> Most halachot of Pesach (Rishon) do not apply to Pesach sheni
> Thus one can eat matzah even though he has chametz in the house (imo 
> babayit). Is there a source that one cannot eat matzoh erev pesach sheni 
> (in second Temple days) so he will eat it le-ta-avon at night just like 
> erev pesach.

Not that I'm aware of, but it makes sense that such a restriction might
be enacted by the Sanhedrin.  What time's sunset in J'm today?


> I agree that eating matzah the night of Iyar 15 makes more sense. 
> nevertheless Tachanun is not said on Iyar 14 but is said on Iyar 15

Of course.  Just as in Nissan.  Why don't we say tachanun on the 14th
of Nissan?  Because the yomtov that the Torah calls "Chag Hapesach"
(as opposed to "chag hamatzot") is the 14th of Nissan; it officially
starts at noon, but minhag extends it to the morning, so tachanun
isn't said all day.  (In some places the minhag also extends the
issur melacha to the morning.)  And it lasts until dawn of the 15th,
because for kodshim the night follows the day (thus overlapping the
"Chag Hamatzot" which starts at sunset of the 15th, because for most
purposes the day follows the night).

On Chag Hapesach there is a positive command of tashbitu, but no
negative command of bal yera'eh uval yimatzei.  On Pesach Sheni
there's no tashbitu, but there is an issur on eating chametz at
the actual "seder" at night.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Joel Rich asked if I think there is only one Torah Hashkafah and that all
Baalei Hashkafah are really saying the same thing.

My answer is, no. But I do think that there are things  that the Torah does
offer a perspective on, and that people are capable of offering perspectives
that are not in sync with those of the Torah.
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Now, how will one know that his Mada studies will enhance the quality of
his Torah study? One of three ways. 1) By accident. (I can't begin to
tell you how happy I was to understand a Rashi that referenced
niello-work just a few days after I happened to read about it in the
dormitory bathroom's
Britannica.) 2) By design - you already know that learning this will
help your learning, as others have already trodden this path. Learning
the Ayil Meshulash is a good example, or listening to the Kuzari about
music, or to your teachers who identify any specific field or topic as
beneficial. 3) By hit-or-miss. You study as much Mada of whatever
variety you can find or are interested in, and you hope that some of it
will be useful. This is different from the first method, because there
your intention was not even to study - some Mada that you picked up
happened to be useful. Here, you try to make that accident repeat itself
using the brute-force method - cram as much Mada into your head as
possible, so that there is a large likelihood that some of it will be
useful in enhancing the quality of your Torah knowledge. 
The problem with the first method is that there is much Torah that will
not be understood fully because of the fluky nature of this method. The
problem with the third method is that it's extremely inefficient and
still leaves the possibility of being unsuccessful - what if your
particular interests don't coincide with any Torah you learn?
If I had to stereotype, I would say that the most right wing of Torah
Jews favor the first method (or possibly even less than that). The most
left wing probably tend to favor the third method (or less than that -
where Mada becomes an end in itself). Personally, as should already be
obvious, I favor the second method.
Just for the record, I'm not positive that R'n CL disagrees with me -
but thank you either way, R'n CL, for the opportunity to share my
thoughts!

KT,
MYG  

==========================================
I've had this argument on a number of levels over the years.  Even
naniach that 80% of what you learn in school (or in this case in secular
studies) will be of "no value", IMHO it is near impossible to know which
20% will come into play and thus while one can "plan" certain areas of
study, the lack of other knowledge to serendipitously (or imho through
hashgacha) fall into place will lessen one's accomplishment in torah
(there was an excellent history channel show on the development of the
M-16, the genius of the design iirc was realizing something he had seen
in the aircraft world applied here)

KT
Joel Rich
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