Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 88

Tue, 01 May 2007

• 1. Re: alloys/mixtures/compunds (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Peanuts and other Kitnios (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Micha Berger)
• 4. When may Yidden drink??? (SBA)
• 5. Re: Peanuts and other Kitnios (Rich, Joel)
• 6. two most influential poskim (Samuel Groner)
• 7. Re: When do the malachim come (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: Torah study vs. other contributions to society (Doron Beckerman)
• 9. Why so many details of tzora'as in the Torah? (Zvi Lampel)
• 10. Fw: [Areivim] Yom Ha'Atzma'ut (SBA)
• 11. Re: Why so many details of tzora'as in the Torah? (Elliott Shevin)
• 12. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Elliott Shevin)
• 13. Re: Torah Study vs. other contributions to society (Samuel Svarc)
• 14. Re: Yom Haatzmaut and Behab (Michael Kopinsky)
• 15. Re: Yom Haatzmaut and Behab (Michael Kopinsky)

On Tue, April 24, 2007 4:28 am, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Of course the question is do these differences affect the absorbility
: of the material and did chazal look into the details of mixtures as
: is done today.

I am sure that the difference between an alloy, where the components
are mixed into a single sea of electrons, the spaces of molecular
size, and a mixture where the components are of microscopic sizes is
technically relevant. That was my original point, stripped of any
assumptions in the debate about whether alloys are compounds and
defining these terms in things that don't come in well-defined
molecules. Physically, an alloy's gaps would be measurable in the same
units as atoms.

But I join you in wondering whether Chazal would be gozerim
differently based on such details. I would think that since steel is
mateches, the answer is "yes" -- they do not see an alloy as a mixture
but as a single beryah. But that's just guessing.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Tue, April 24, 2007 4:21 pm, R Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: R' Samuel Svarc wrote:
:> They're wrong because there is no "Israeli kehillah" to join. There
:> are tens of kehillah's, some of which do keep kitnios...

I find RSS is just begging the issue. Why is it right to have tens of
co-located qehillos? Doesn't that defy the concept of minhag hamaqom
and constitute lo sisgodedu?

: Igros Moshe (YD IV 15.3 page 184): Question: Is it necessary to act in
: accord with the minhag of Israel which is printed in seforim? Answer:
: Concerning the minagim of Israel - Rav Tuchichinsky has already
: published seform on all the issues. However I have been uncertain
: concerning a number of issues that are mentioned in his sefer and
: other
: seforim on the subject. Do they in fact have the status of minhag. In
: particular since those immigrants who came to Israel after they were
: decreed  constitute ten times as many people as the original
: population
: and they have different minhagim - whether their minhagim become
: nullified before the local minhag?

RMF doesn't really address my question. Perhaps they aren't mevatelim
before the local minhag. Perhaps when 10 times the number of people
arrive, they define a new local minhag? There is nothing about whether
it's okay to have multiple minhagim, or to try to get down to a single
"beis din per city". RMF is not giving communal policy, but the
halakhah for an individual oleh who can't change the general status
quo.

Again, where do we see a basis for considering the current mixture of
minhagim in a single city being anything more than a bedi'eved? And
why aren't we looking to accelerate the process of unifying?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, April 25, 2007 4:48 am, Rt Chana Luntz wrote:
:> I think the only problem from a TuM perspective is that he
:> had no justification for defying the Rambam's ban on living
:> off one's learning.

: I don't think you are right here - that is a Torah u'parnessa
: perspective, not a TUM perspective.

I didn't know it was possible to hold of TuM and not TuP (which, BTW,
should really be called "Torah va'Avodah", as the CI called it -- but
that would confuse former Bnei Akivaniks).

So, to rephrase: I do not think it's a TuM problem for someone with a
cheisheq to learn to choose learning. However, the typical TuM
adherent would have problems on TuP grounds.

I am primarily disagreeing with the question on a more fundamental
issue -- learning isn't about who is the most capable to learn. The
goal of learning lishmah inheres in the ameilus, not the knowledge. I
therefore don't think the question even begins. If he has the
cheisheq, then he has what is necessary to succeed at the tafqid, no
less than his other abilities would make him a good medic.

To be more specific about answering a question that doesn't suffer
this problem may require delving into the various versions of TIDE and
TuM.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Nice vort from the Rebbe Reb Hershel Zidichoyver zt'l that I heard tonight
at a Shiur.

In Parshas Shemini (10:9) "Yayin vesheichor al tesht..." - one should not
drink wine,    except for -

"Ato uvonecho itoch" - when you sit at the seder with your children,
''bevoyachem el Ohel Moyed" - when you come together at the Rebbe's,
"velo somusu" - at a Seudas Hodo'eh,
"Chukas Oylom" - at a Bris (ie, Veyamideho leYaakov lechok leYisroel 
      Bris Olom),
"Ledoroyseichem" - at weddings.
"Ulehavdil bein hakodesh uvein hachol" - refers to Kiddush and Havdolo,
"Uvein hatomei uvein hatohor" - on Purim (Haman and Mordechai),
"Ulehoros es Bnei Yisroel eis kol hachukim asher dibeir Hashem" - at 
     a Siyum Mesechteh.

SBA

 

Again, where do we see a basis for considering the current mixture of
minhagim in a single city being anything more than a bedi'eved? And why
aren't we looking to accelerate the process of unifying?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

==========================================
The simplest answer would be sociological.  A more creative one would be
that while minhagim were clearly originally strongly location based,
given that there were situations of more than one beit din in a town
(and I'm not clear what conditions allowed/encouraged this), chazal must
have had a non location based svara which later gedolim built on because
of the conditions on the ground to allow/encourage multiple minhagim.

Given the membership of this list, perhaps one of our chashuv members
could access a gadol and ask the question?

KT
Joel Rich
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Doron Beckerman claims that the Chofetz Chaim and Rav Moshe Feinstein
are "the two most influential
Poskim in post WWII Jewry."

Rav Ovadiah?  Rav Shlomo Zalman? etc.

Also, if as has been mentioned here before the influence of the
mishnah berurah post-WW II was largely due to the influences of Rav
Kotler and the Chazon Ish -- see Daniel Eidensohn's posts at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol01/v01n026.shtml and
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol04/v04n003.shtml -- then perhaps it
makes more sense to view Rav Kotler and the Chazon Ish as among the
most influential poskim.

Sammy Groner

RTK wrote:
> And I've always understood "the kallah" (=the Shabbas queen) to be ?either
> a metaphor/personification of the Shabbos for poetic purposes, or the
> ?angel in charge of Shabbos, the way the Sar shel Esav, say, is the angel
> in ?charge of Esav.

There is a book by Prof. Reuven Kimmelman etitled Lekhah Doidi veQabalat 
Shabbat (Hebrew), where he shows that Lekhah Dodi only makes sense within the 
particulars of Rav Mosheh Cordovero's Kabbalah. It is filled with scriptural 
idiom and paraphrase, but cannot be read according to the simple meaning of 
the quoted verses.

Therefore, it is all the more surprising that it became a mainstay of the 
siddur even in communities that tended to vehemently oppose the inclusion of 
kabbalistic texts in it.

KT
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

Rn Chana Luntz writes:

>But if he sits in his
ivory tower of a yeshiva and learns b'Hasmada, how ultimately does he
differ from my computer (except that my computer does it better)?<


1) Your computer has no Neshama that is nourished by bytes of Torah
information.
2) Your computer is not fulfilling the Mitzvah of Talmud Torah K'neged
Kulam.
3) Your computer has no appreciation that it is absorbing the Chochmah of
the Borei Olam.
4) Your computer has no need to fulfill the Halachos contained in the stored
information
5) Your computer has no Bein Adam LaChaveiro interactions that need to be
guided by the Torah.
Our protege  interacts with his family, friends, neighbors, acquaintances,
and strangers on a daily basis, just not in the context of a particular
profession.
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Thu, 26 Apr 2007 from: "Micha Berger" <micha@aishdas.org>

I think of tzora'as as a spiritusomatic illness...."

Another brilliant coinage by RMB!
 
"But in order for such 
a thing to happen someone would have to be sufficiently unified in guf
and neshamah for one to be able to impact another."

I think this is what the Sefer HaKuzari says.

Zvi Lampel
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From: "Moshe Feldman" <>
I wrote someone yesterday: "Chag Atzma'ut Sameach."

He wrote me back:
> I tried searching for this Chag in SA, but was unable to locate it. Could
> you please give me a mareh makom?

Magen Avraham siman 686 sk 5, Chasam Sofer chelek 1 siman 191
======

Here's a mareh makom (from the Torah) with a vastly different POV:
http://bh.hevre.co.il/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=2193232

See also (3 posts later) a comment from Rav Elyashiv shlita.

SBA

Marty Bluke wrote
 
> We can ask this about many things. For example the Torah describes in> excruciating detail the design of the mishkan and then repeats it for> the building of the mishkan. Considering that the whole mishkan is not> even l'doros there is a tremendous amount of the Torah Shebkisav> devoted to it.
And yet, as my own rav observed, all those details are still not enough 
information by which to build the mishkan! Elly"Striving to bring Torah Judaism into the 58th century"
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Ilana Sober wrote:
 >I agree with the basic premise that many Jews who did not go into learning>have made great contributions in other fields - whether to humanity in>general or on a smaller scale to their own patients, clients, students, etc.And if all the Jews went into learning, who would be left to support them?
 
[ Semi- :-) ]
 
Far from discouraging secular pursuits, Torah tells us the proper way 
to conduct ourselves while doing so. Some of chazal spent their entire lives in the 
bet midrash, and some did not. Presumably, the Torah guided them 
wherever they were, and so should it be for us.
 Elly"Striving to bring Torah Judaism into the 58th century"
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>From: "Chana Luntz" <chana@kolsassoon.org.uk>
>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Torah Study vs. other contributions to society
>
>Rather it is a disagreement about the nature of people and their
>purpose.
>
>Look, let me give an extreme example.  My computer is (at least when
>attached to the Bar Ilan CD) Baki in all of Shas, Rishonim, Achronim,
>teshuvas, what have you - at least if you know how to ask the right
>questions.  But "knowing" Shas/Rishonim/Achronim in the fashion of my
>computer does not fulfil a person's mission in life.  There needs to be
>more than that.  Torah and mitzvos needs to be integrated into a
>person's life.  One clear way of doing this  is if a person is going on
>to be a Rav, he will be applying the Torah he has learnt to assist
>others (and that requires developing his understanding).  Same is true
>if he goes on to be a Rosh Yeshiva or teacher.  But if he sits in his
>ivory tower of a yeshiva and learns b'Hasmada, how ultimately does he
>differ from my computer (except that my computer does it better)?  The
>answer that I think everybody would give is that it is not just having a
>photographic memory that is important, but it is that something extra
>that human beings are capable of adding called understanding that can,
>if done properly, make this learning valuable.

I do not believe that is the correct answer. Your computer is an inanimate
object that has no chiyuvim or mitzvos. The Jew sitting in "his ivory tower
of a yeshiva" is doing what Hashem commanded him to do. 

>...  From a TUM
>perspective, the same level of understanding just cannot be achieved by
>remaining in an ivory tower yeshiva setting for one's entire life, and
>hence by doing so this fellow has just not fulfilled his mission in
>life, which is to develop his understanding to the utmost extent
>possible, no matter how hard he works at learning b'hasmadah and how
>many mesechtos he is Baki in.

Experientially, this is a disproven perspective. The two greatest examples
of people who spent their lives in an "ivory tower" are the Gra and the
Chazon Ish. It's ludicrous to assert that they didn't fulfill their mission
in life.

KT,
MSS

On 4/19/07, Danny Schoemann <doniels@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> - Last day of Yom Tov in chu"l? (Which is why in EY we don't say
> Lamenatze'ach on Isru Chag.)
>
> - Danny


Really?  Then how come some people (according to my siddur it's the shitas
haYaave"tz) don't say lamnatzeiach on isru chag in chutz laaretz either?

Michael
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On 4/19/07, kennethgmiller@juno.com <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
>
> R' Marty Bluke:
> > The answers that I received that Yom Haatzmaut is pushed off
> > until Tuesday, actually raises more questions. How exactly
> > does that work al pi halacha?
>
> R' Moshe Yehuda Gluck answered:
> > If Yom HaAtzmaut needs to have Hallel said on it, it is only
> > because of the original institution of the practice, which,
> > presumably, was made with this stipulation in mind.
>
> RMYG's presumption seems to be in error. As R' David Cohen wrote, the
> original institution of the practice did *not* have this stipulation
> in mind. It was to say Hallel on 5 Iyar; not later, and not earlier.
>
> Akiva Miller


Though it could be argued, that the original takanah was made with the
assumption that it would be modified by whatever later decisions of the
rabbanut.  The Rabbanut was (and is) also a political body, and I'm sure the
original rabbanim realized that there might be a necessity to later modify
any decisions that they made.

Michael
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