Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 77

Fri, 13 Apr 2007

• 1. Re: waiting 24 hours before libun (Michael Kopinsky)
• 2. Re: Peanuts and other Kitnios (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: 10 pieces of Chometz (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Mitzvos and Iyun (Doron Beckerman)
• 5. Origin of Yom HaShoah (Joseph Mosseri)
• 6. Re: R Asher Weiss (Yaakov Moser)
• 7. Re: RSZA opinion on brain-death? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Love of Israel (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Electricity on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: More on Mitzvos and Iyun (Micha Berger)
• 11. R. Asher Weiss (Eli Turkel)
• 12. Re: R Asher Weiss (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 13. Re: R Asher Weiss (David Riceman)
• 14. The Heter of Davar She Eino Mischavin by a Star-K Oven (Harry Maryles)

On 4/2/07, Dr. Josh Backon <backon@vms.huji.ac.il> wrote:
>
>
> The entire "oylam" requires a waiting period of 24 hours (after
> cleaning) for Libun Kal.


Why after cleaning?  If the utensil was cleaned in cold water (or even warm,
but not hot), chametz would not reenter upon cleaning.  Isn't it just 24
hours without being used for hot stuff?

Michael
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Danny Schoemann wrote:

> Apparently not. There are 3 reasons (in the Poskim) for forbidding Kitnios:
> 1) You can make flour out of it
> 2) It grows in/on a Sharvit. (stalk?)

Pod.

> 3) Midi D'Midgan. Either that it's harvested into piles/granaries or
> else any "grain".

You left out:
4) Is cooked as a porridge (daysa, aka kashe)


> Peanuts:
> - Are apparently sometimes made into flour.
> - Machlokes if it grows on/in a Sharvit

They certainly do grow in pods, just like other peas.  Anyone can see
that.


> - Are not Midi D'Midgan

I'm not so sure about that.  They're certainly harvested in bulk and
stored for use far in the future.  And vast quantities are shelled
and stored without their shells.  How is that different than what
happens to dagan?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

 
 
In a message dated 4/12/2007 8:36:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
MPoppers@kayescholer.com writes:

OK, so  let's say the reason for this minhag isn't related to the chashash of 
a  b'rachah l'vatalah. 


>>>>>
But it is.  Why waste time thinking about a counterfactual  hypothesis?
 


--Toby  Katz
=============



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I remember  in twelfth grade I was once learning Gemara during Mussar
Seder.  The Rebbe told me to put the Gemara away since it was time for
Mussar. I responded that I was learning Mussar - I was learning the Gemara
in Bava Metzia 10a which states that a worker (for particular actions not
including finding lost objects) who picks up a Metzia while he is working
must deduct the time expended in picking up the object, which takes all of a
second or two! What gevaldig Mussar!

(That's not my definitive statement on the topic of Mussar study,  which I
think is critical. Just food for the discussion re Gemara and refinement of
character. Learning this Gemara Al Menas LaAsos would certainly refine one's
Middos).
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When was Yom HaShoah established?

Where?

By Whom?

 

I have seen numerous letters, announcements, and decrees by Rabbi Kook and
Rabbi Ouziel the Chief Rabbi's of Eress Yisrael during and after the
Holocaust and they said that Holocaust remembrance day is on 10 Tevet.

 

I also recall some of my teachers and Rabbis as a child who were religious
survivors of the Holocaust and they would only say Kadish and memorial
prayers for their families that perished in the Holocaust on 10 Tevet.

 

How can we have a day of National Mourning in the month of Nissan?

 

I am posing this question with the utmost respect and importance of having
such a day but I just do not understand it being on 27 Nissan.

 

Joseph Mosseri

 

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>
> If one of us and the gadol hador were on a desert island and there were
> only one kzayit of matzah available for pesach and it was our property,
> Hashem would get more nachat ruach if we gave it to the gadol hador to
> be mkayem the mitzvah (and we should act as such - although iiuc we
> would not be compelled to)
This would seem to me to be a problem with "passing over Mitzvot" (Ein 
Me'avirin Al Hamitzvot), which is Mede'oraita, at least according to 
many (based on the Tosfot in Yoma 33a). We sometimes allow a person to 
delay a mitzvah if they are going to perform it in a more complete or 
beautiful manner later - but to give up a mitzvah so another person can 
keep it..? And who knows the reward for a Mitzvah - how can we say which 
is more important? In a case such as this I am sure we cannot judge what 
gives Nachat Ruach to Hashem.
This is a Mitzvah which a person has to keep for themselves - the person 
with the Matzah has the Mitzvah of eating the Matzah, and the Gadol 
HaDor is anus.


Jason Moser


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On Wed, April 11, 2007 4:03 am, Shaya Potter wrote:
: 1st to include RSZA in the "breathing" section, seems somewhat
: irresponsible as his view seems to have nothing to do with breathing,
: as even if the breathing functions of the brain are gone, but other
: functions remain, it would appear that RSZA would consider the person
: alive.

I am curious if any of the doctors here can comment as to whether or not that
is physically possible. My understanding was that things like breathing are so
core to the central nervous system that it would be the last thing to ch"v
shut down.

Usually evolutionary explanations would come with it, IIRC. Breathing was
among the first things the central nervous system took over, and everything
else grew around that, layer after layer, consciousness last.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

On Thu, April 5, 2007 7:06 pm, Rn Chana Luntz wrote:
: It is also interesting that, before I looked at the Encyclopedia
: Talmudit, I checked out the Sde Chemed, and while I did not find
: anything on this particular matter - I found a fascinating discussion
: (chelek gimmel p194) on whether kavod hamelech is docheh an issur torah
: and whether one can go on a boat on shabbas for kovod hamelech purposes
: (remember my hunt regarding treatment of issurei derabanan once on has
: eliminated any d'orisa problem due to a positive mitzvah, here we are
: again in that territory, and again not a whiff of the idea that a
: d'rabbanan should be treated more strictly than a d'orisa)....

When a malekh tells you to violate an asei de'Oraisa, wouldn't divrei
haRav vedivrei hatalmid tell you to ignore the king? Or is that only
where there the violation is of a lav?

Because if it includes a command to violate an asei... Listening to the
king would be expressing kavod, no? So if kavod hamelekh is grounds for
violating issurim, then when would divrei haRav ever apply to a melekh?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, April 6, 2007 4:05 am, R Saul Mashbaum wrote:
: [R] Marty Bluke wrote about the CI's position on electricity and mlechet boneh:
:> In fact, that sevara has been rejected l'halacha at least by tevilas keilim.
:> One acharon suggested
:> that a toaster would be patur from tevilas keilim because it is mechubar
:> l'karka (plugged in) and everyone else disagreed.
:
: The CI's position on electricity is AFAIK indeed a daat yachid AFAIK, but the
: idea that electric appliances are patur from tvila because they are mechubarim
: l'karka is a respected opinion with halachic weight.

Does the above mean that the CI was only talking about AC appliances? That
battery powered devices, with no cibur laqarqa wouldn't be boneh? In which
case, how would a battery powered calculator (no filaments, no chibur laqarqa,
can't be considered a keli zemer) wouldn't be a problem?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Wed, April 11, 2007 3:08 am, Rn Shoshana L. Boublil wrote:
: There are shitot of learning that invest in the training of the mind of the
: student, in his ability to use logic and learn the meaning of the G'marot --
: but completely ignore any kind of spiritual/emotional content.  It is these
: shitot that bring about the existence of people who can be brilliant when it
: comes to understand a G'mara -- and lousy as human beings.  For them, there
: is no connection whatsoever between what they are learning and what they
: must do, how they should act.

This is what I was speaking of. What I said was that lomdus, and in particular
Brisker lomdus, has no visible connection to improving one's middos.

I did not say learning gemara in general.

Nor did I say there was no invisible connection. My point was that since the
refining impact of learning be'iyun, which today is generally used to mean
lomdus, is akin to that of a choq, how can RYGB assess its value for those
with weaker intellects?

At least with Telzher derekh, one is constantly tying law back to first
principles. One gains the tools to performing the mitzvah with more
hislahavus.

I did overstate things. The Brisker ability to find overarching principles
that unify the law, ie that pe'ulah vs chalos explains such disparate
machloqesin (that I am convinced the disputers were unaware of) shows a
cohesiveness one only finds in emes.

However, experimentally, we know many manage to leave yeshiva no holier in
personality than they went in.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

If one of us and the gadol hador were on a desert island and there were
only one kzayit of matzah available for pesach and it was our property,
Hashem would get more nachat ruach if we gave it to the gadol hador to
be mkayem the mitzvah (and we should act as such - although iiuc we
would not be compelled to)>>

On the contrary I don't see the heter of giving up a mitzvah to
anyone. I don't where it matter who has greater kavanah as affecting
mitzvot.
In another context it is discussed in great detail. In the holocaust
literature there are teshuvot of people who wanted to give up their
lives to save a gadol.
As far as I know they all conclude that it is strictly prohibited.
Similarly in a hospital if an elderly man is attached to a machine he
cannot give up his place to save a younger healthier person (possibly
a son may be different). Though not the same I dont see how a person
can give up a mitzvah so some else (greater) can do it.

<<Shliach shel adam kamoto applies only to the technical kiyum
hamitzvah (not sure if this extends to schar) but not to segula of
mitzvah (e.g.mitzvah gorreret mitzvah)>>

I don't know about segulot. However there is a debate among poskim if
one can light chanukah candles only late at night is it preferable
that one light it late but by himself or preferably ask someone else
to do it for him but at the proper time. I believe part of the
argument is the importance
of doing itself is it just a hidur or more than that.

kol tuv

-- 
Eli Turkel

Yaakov Moser wrote:
>> If one of us and the gadol hador were on a desert island and there were
>> only one kzayit of matzah available for pesach and it was our property,
>> Hashem would get more nachat ruach if we gave it to the gadol hador to
>> be mkayem the mitzvah (and we should act as such - although iiuc we
>> would not be compelled to)
> This would seem to me to be a problem with "passing over Mitzvot" (Ein 
> Me'avirin Al Hamitzvot), which is Mede'oraita, at least according to 
> many (based on the Tosfot in Yoma 33a). We sometimes allow a person to 
> delay a mitzvah if they are going to perform it in a more complete or 
> beautiful manner later - but to give up a mitzvah so another person 
> can keep it..? And who knows the reward for a Mitzvah - how can we say 
> which is more important? In a case such as this I am sure we cannot 
> judge what gives Nachat Ruach to Hashem.
> This is a Mitzvah which a person has to keep for themselves - the 
> person with the Matzah has the Mitzvah of eating the Matzah, and the 
> Gadol HaDor is anus.
>
This issue is discussed in detail in the Shaarei Tshuva 482:2 "The Beis 
Yehuda has the case of two people who are in jail or in the desert and 
they only have 1 kezayis of matzoh - who takes precedent? He concludes 
that they should fight it out....The case is apparently one where the 
matzoh is hefker since your needs take precedent over that of 
others....We see also how Boaz manipulated the situation so he could 
marry Ruth since he knew who her descendants would be.... And even 
though it is prohibited to deceive people but that is in monetary 
matters but regarding mitzvos even though one can not take with force 
from someone who has it. But if as long as the other hasn't gotten the 
mitzva it is like the desert which is hefker to all those who have the 
commandment and want to perfect their soul. This is also what happened 
with Yaakov and the right of the first born... However if the person is 
persuaded to give that which he owns to another - there is no problem 
with this."

I asked Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach why it was necessary to fight when it 
was hefker but it was permitted to give away the mitzva if you own the 
matzoh. He replied that it was obvious. If it is hefker and you let the 
other have it - you are mevazeh the mitzva. It shows you don't care. But 
if it is yours and you want to help another do the mitzva by your 
generosity there is no bizoi mitzva.

Daniel Eidensohn

From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>

>  R' A Weiss
>
> If one of us and the gadol hador were on a desert island and there were
> only one kzayit of matzah available for pesach and it was our property,
> Hashem would get more nachat ruach if we gave it to the gadol hador to
> be mkayem the mitzvah (and we should act as such - although iiuc we
> would not be compelled to)

Why doesn't this fall under the general rubric of "hayyecha kodmin"? Or 
"v'chi omrin l'adam hate bishvil sheyizkeh haveireicha?"

David Riceman 

(Note to moderators: I'm sending this to both lists since it really belongs on Avodah but it was brought up in Areivim. - HM)
   
  Elliott Shevin <eshevin@hotmail.com> wrote: 
        P  {  margin:0px;  padding:0px  }  body  {  FONT-SIZE: 10pt;  FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma  }    I've just reread the review of the halachah at their web site, and remain 
puzzled by the restriction on closing the oven door (while the oven operates) 
on Shabbos while there is food inside. Reigniting the flame isn't what I'm 
thinking of when I open the door (nor extinguishing the flame when I close
the door). And I've found that, for the evening meal, food will stay hot 
for around an hour even if the oven had been shut off before Shabbos 
(for which the "Sabbath feature" is very useful, BTW), so in such a case 
additional heat isn't needed. 
 
So couldn't opening the oven door also be a grama lo nicha leih?
  ----------------------------------
  It is a Gramma, Rav Heineman;s protestations to the contrary not withstanding. At least that what Rabbi Shmuel Feurst says. He spoke to Rav Heineman about the Gramma issue and was told that opening the doors and allowing the cool air from the room into the oven which lowers the preset temperature thus (turning on the heating elements) is always delayed by a  sort of computerized delaying switch for 2 minutes. Rav Heimenman says that  this is enough for him to not make it a Gramma. Rav Shmuel Feurst calls this "nonesense" and holds that it's still Gramma. 
   
  The only Heter I can think of is the same one used when we open refrigerator doors. It is a Davar SheEino Mischavin and not a Psik Reisha. The fridge motor does not automatically go on if we don't hold the door open too long. The same is true for an oven WRT its heating coils. The big difference is how long the door must remain open for it to be a Psik Reisha. By a Fridge, it is a lot longer than by an oven. Some say that an oven's "window of opportunity" for it not to be a Psik Reisha is almost nil making it impractical to apply the " Fridge door heter"  to an oven. I believe it remains an open Shiala.
   
  HM
   
   


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