Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 76

Thu, 12 Apr 2007

• 1. Re: 10 pieces of Chometz (MPoppers@kayescholer.com)
• 2. Re: Peanuts (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 3. Peanuts (Harry Weiss)
• 4. Peanuts and other Kitnios (Danny Schoemann)
• 5. R Asher Weiss (Rich, Joel)
• 6. kashering caeser stone (Eli Turkel)
• 7. [Areivim] Chiddushei HaStar-K (Chana Luntz)
• 8. Re: R Asher Weiss (Michael Kopinsky)
• 9. Re: 10 pieces of Chometz (Michael Kopinsky)
• 10. Re: Driving Miss Daisy to Chometz (Michael Kopinsky)
• 11. Re: not working on chol hamoed (Michael Kopinsky)
• 12. Re: More on Mitzvos and Iyun (Michael Kopinsky)

In Avodah Digest, Vol 23, Issue 75, RAM wrote:
> ...The chometz is placed around the house by someone other than me, and
they write
down a list of where they are all placed, so that even if I give up
looking for it, we'll still be able to retrieve it and get rid of it.... <
and RnTK wrote:
> ...presumably the person  who hid the bread remembers where
she hid it.... <
Yes, we hope not to hear any apocryphal stories of a missing piece.

OK, so let's say the reason for this minhag isn't related to the chashash
of a b'rachah l'vatalah.  Can someone tell me re what other mitzvah we're
chosheish that the person performing the mitzvah may not perform it as well
as possible, such that we challenge him by deliberately making it harder
and/or more involved?  IMHO, this smacks of lifnei eeveir, even if the
person hiding the pieces is 101% sure that s/he will be able to find any
which the searcher cannot find.  (NB: I'm merely trying to understand this
minhag, not to question the sincerity or commitment of its practicioners.)
Thanks.

A guten Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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R' Yisrael Medad asked:
> I'm told Rav Moshe Feinstein said that there was absolutely
> NO basis for including peanuts on a 'kitnitot' list. EVEN
> Ashkevazimm can eat them. Can anyone confirm or deny?

This is a great distortion of what Rav Feinstein said, which is that 
many localities did not forbid peanuts, and that therefore, if there 
is no specific minhag to forbid them, they are not forbidden. "Those 
who do have a specific minhag not to eat peanuts are forbidden to do 
so, but when in doubt, ein le'esor." -- Igros Moshe, Orach Chaim, vol 
3, siman 63.

Those who can read/learn the original should do so, as some phrases 
are very difficult to translate. For example, "ein le'esor" could 
simply mean "it is not forbidden". Alternatively, one might translate 
it as "one must not forbid it", and that more extreme language might 
lead someone to think that there was "absolutely no basis."

Akiva Miller

> From: "Yisrael Medad" <yisrael.medad@gmail.com>
>
> I know it is is late in the holiday but this came over the Shiloh list:
>
> I'm told Rav Moshe Feinstein said that there was absolutely NO basis
> for including peanuts on a 'kitnitot' list. EVEN Ashkevazimm can eat
> them.
>
> Can anyone confirm or deny?

That is what Igros Moshe says based on peanuts not being around at the 
time the minhag began, but there is one very big caveat.  He also says 
that if you are in place where the custom is NOT to eat peanuts, they are 
assur.

Now days among Ashkenazim that is almost universal.  When I was child I 
remember that on Pesach we always used Peanut oil.  When is the last time 
you saw peanut oil under reliable US hashgacha?

R' Yisrael Medad asked:
> I'm told Rav Moshe Feinstein said that there was absolutely NO basis
> for including peanuts on a 'kitnitot' list. EVEN Ashkenazim can eat
> them. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Igros Moshe vol 3, siman 63. He compares it to Anise and Kamile -
things that are not mentioned in the poskim as being forbidden,
therefor are permitted.

This information comes from my cousin Meshulom Schoemann (and his
chavrusa  YA Pfeuffer)'s kuntras Dinei Kitnios B'Pesach (Adar 5767).
(BTW, they claim Anise and Kamile are spices and therefore not
Kitnios, and peanuts should be Kitnios.)

Once we're on the topic, I would like to address other Kitnios issues
that were raised on Areivim, and which the above kuntras addresses:

R' Moshe Feldman asserted (on 1 April) that
> if kashrus agency X does not permit peanut oil, they shouldn't
> permit canola oil either, as the same reasoning applies
> to both.

Apparently not. There are 3 reasons (in the Poskim) for forbidding Kitnios:
1) You can make flour out of it
2) It grows in/on a Sharvit. (stalk?)
3) Midi D'Midgan. Either that it's harvested into piles/granaries or
else any "grain".
(The "popular" reason that wheat grains can get mixed in, is "only"
mentioned in the Beis Yosef in the name of the Hago'as Maimoni' [and
is only found in the Kushta edition of the HM.])

Peanuts:
- Are apparently sometimes made into flour.
- Machlokes if it grows on/in a Sharvit
- Are not Midi D'Midgan

Canola:
- Are never made into flour as it's not edible (Avnei Nezer 373)
- Do grow in/on a Sharvit
- Are a Midi D'Midgan

Clearly there's a case to forbid Canola and not Peanuts.
(The kuntras also explains why Kitnios oil should be assur.)

BTW, since it was discussed, Potatoes:
- Are made into flour
- Do not grow in a sharvit
- Are a Midi D'Midgan
They are not kitnios because... they are a Pri (lit. fruit, probably
vegetable, as opposed to grain.)

However, the heter to use potato flour is an enigma, and is apparently
based on the original heter to use it for little kids and other people
with special dietary considerations. Why? What's the problem?

The origin for Kitnios can be traced to a Gemoro in Pesochim 40b where
Rava is astounded that Rav Papo allowed the Reish Gelusa's slaves to
"Mamche" food with "Chasisi".

Tosafos (based on the Oruch) translate that to mean "use lentil
flour". This is also the source the Vilna Gaon cites in SA OC 453:1
for Kitnios. Ditto for the Beis Meir and the Oruch Hashulchon.

Apparently an argument can be made that any flour that looks like
grain floor should be forbidden Midina D'Gemora even for
non-Ashkenazim. (Pri Chodosh, Gro, Beis Meir, OhS. The Orach Mishpot
114 brings a letter from the Bedatz of the Eida haChareidis of his
time (under R' Dovid Baharan zt"l) that nowadays Kitnios flour is
Asurim MiDina.)

(The Rif and Tur 464, Ritva, Ran, Maharam Ch' and Me'iri all take
"Mamche" food with "Chasisi" to mean "bake with Matzo meal"! The
kuntras doesn't elaborate.)

As to the "Machon Shilo" thread about "The Psak Halacha Permitting
Kitniyot", the kuntras brings the OhS in 453:4 regarding Kitnios:
"This issur - since our ancestors accepted it as a Geder - may not be
abolished by us MiDin Tora, and those that cast aspersion and treat it
lightly prove that they do not have Yiras Shomayim or Yiras Chet and
are not expert in the ways of the Torah." (!)

This comment was apparently prompted by The Reform Movement which (150
years ago) used kitnios as a proof that the Rabbis are simply trying
to make life difficult. (No source given.)

- Danny

 
I was listening to a shiur (www.bcbm.org) recently in which R' A Weiss
made 2 points which I think we've discussed in prior iterations.  Both
iiuc were primarily based on his "lev shel torah" although iirc he
brought a source which he felt could be read this way for each.


If one of us and the gadol hador were on a desert island and there were
only one kzayit of matzah available for pesach and it was our property,
Hashem would get more nachat ruach if we gave it to the gadol hador to
be mkayem the mitzvah (and we should act as such - although iiuc we
would not be compelled to)

Shliach shel adam kamoto applies only to the technical kiyum hamitzvah
(not sure if this extends to schar) but not to segula of mitzvah (e.g.
mitzvah gorreret mitzvah)

Comments?

KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

The CRC permits kashering Caesar stone countertops
http://www.crcweb.org/kosher/consumer/passover/supervision.html  [see
also http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/crc2007_KASHERING.pdf]
while Rabbi Eidlits of Kosherquest forbids
http://www.kosherquest.net/index.asp?theaction=passoverguide.
Has anyone heard more on the subject?>>

Rabbi Eidlits claims that caeserstone is only 93% stone. Anyone know
what else is in there? However, many modern materials are composites.
Does anyone claim that steel is not a "matechet" because it
has other ingredients like
carbon besides iron? The Torah lists gold and silver as
"matechet" however one cannot use pure gold or silver as
they are too weak. All gold and silver materials (even 24
karat gold) has to have some other materials to strengthen them

kol tuv

-- 
Eli Turkel

Sent to Avodah, as I suspect this is where it belongs:

>    Over Yom Tov, I came across the following huge kula of the 
> Star-K, in the booklet they distribute with their certified 
> yom-tov ovens:
>   Electricity is muttar to use on yom tov, as long as one 
> does not physically observe the effects. Therefore, they 
> alllow you to actually press buttons on an electric keypad on 
> yom tov itself.

...
        This chiddush is certainly against the widely quoted 
> view of the chazzon ish, that electricity is boneh.  Why 
> would the fact that you can't see the effects of your keypad 
> pressing make it mutar?
>         Anyone have any sources for these hetterim? I have 
> attempted discussing this with the Star-k and they refused to 
> explain it. I discussed it with a major posek over yom tov 
> and he agreed with me it seems sketchy.
>

My best guess is that they understand not seeing the effects of your
keypad pressing as demonstrating that we have a grama situation at hand
(is that factually accurate?) - and hence you get into that stira in the
Rema ie between Orech Chaim siman 334:22 where he says that grama (in
relation to extinguishing on shabbas) is only mutar when there is a
hefsed and Orech Chaim siman 514 si'if 3 where he seems to suggest that
grama is mutar (ie that burning a candle from below on yom tov so as to
make it go out quicker is mutar without any qualification).  One
resolution of this is to hold that grama on shabbas is ossur except
bmakom pseda but on yom tov is mutar l'chatchila.  As we have discussed
on this list, the view of the Chazzon Ish that electricity is boneh is
very much a minority opinion - but even if you were to go with the
position of the Chazzon Ish - is it not possible that you are still in
grama territory?
 
> Mike

Regards

Chana

On 4/12/07, Rich, Joel <JRich@sibson.com> wrote:
>
>
> I was listening to a shiur (www.bcbm.org) recently in which R' A Weiss
> made 2 points which I think we've discussed in prior iterations.  Both
> iiuc were primarily based on his "lev shel torah" although iirc he
> brought a source which he felt could be read this way for each.
>
>
> If one of us and the gadol hador were on a desert island and there were
> only one kzayit of matzah available for pesach and it was our property,
> Hashem would get more nachat ruach if we gave it to the gadol hador to
> be mkayem the mitzvah (and we should act as such - although iiuc we
> would not be compelled to)
>
> Shliach shel adam kamoto applies only to the technical kiyum hamitzvah
> (not sure if this extends to schar) but not to segula of mitzvah (e.g.
> mitzvah gorreret mitzvah)
>
> Comments?
>
> KT
> Joel Rich


I'm not sure what you meant by the last paragraph.  Shlucho shel adam k'moso
is entirely inapplicable here - just like I can't put tefillin on for you, I
can't eat matza for you either.

I don't understand how that can be halachically possible.  You have a chance
to be mekayem a mitzvah, and willingly give it up?  Do you mean that HKBH
get more nachas ruach (whatever that means) from something that is assur?
There is no actual mitzvah to enable someone else to do a mitzvah.

This question reminds me of an argument I heard advanced in my early
elementary school years.  (I can't believe I actually remember this... I am
closer to that age than most Avodah readers, but still...)  The school had a
program collecting the opener thing at the top of soda (or in this case,
apple juice) cans for some tzedaka thing.  The argument was, "If you give
the top to tzedaka yourself, you get one mitzvah, of giving your bottle top
to tzedaka.  If you give it to me, you get the zchus of letting me have a
mitzvah, as well as the zchus that your bottle top ended up in tzedaka."
(Yes, this was 6-7 year olds saying this!)

Michael
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On 4/12/07, MPoppers@kayescholer.com <MPoppers@kayescholer.com> wrote:
>
>  OK, so let's say the reason for this minhag isn't related to the chashash
> of a b'rachah l'vatalah. Can someone tell me re what other mitzvah we're
> chosheish that the person performing the mitzvah may not perform it as well
> as possible, such that we challenge him by deliberately making it harder
> and/or more involved? IMHO, this smacks of lifnei eeveir, even if the person
> hiding the pieces is 101% sure that s/he will be able to find any which the
> searcher cannot find. (NB: I'm merely trying to understand this minhag, not
> to question the sincerity or commitment of its practicioners.) Thanks.
>

The purpose is not to make the mitzvah harder and more involved, but make it
more effective.  As RAM wrote, it does actually make you search more
thoroughly, which is the whole point of bedikas chametz.  You should be
looking that thoroughly in any case.  The 10 pieces is just an extra
incentive to make sure.

Michael
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On 4/11/07, A & C Walters <acwalters@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
> Presumably if she is not so makpid on Chometz on Pesach r"l which is
> chayav
> chatos, she is also not so careful on kashrus the whole year. So: mah
> nishtana this time to every time????


I imagine that you mean Chayav Kares.  You are Chayav Chatas for eating
treif as well.  (You are also chayav kares for some treif in the stores, if
it has blood.  But I doubt that you would find a shiur issur (revi'is?) in a
package of unsalted meat.)

Michael
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On 4/8/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Apr 08, 2007 at 03:26:38AM -0400, T613K@aol.com wrote:
> :                        While I am  bringing up this chol hamoed
> question, let
> : me add another:   does  typing on chol hamoed become an issur only if I
> print
> : out what I typed?   How about if I print out what someone else typed?
>
> ...But why fixate on kesivah when you can also ask about havarah or binyan
> /
> makeh bepatish? (Or whatever is your favorite electricity prohibition.)
>
> However, we're talking about ch"m: If you enjoy Avodah, then printing
> it would be mutar on ch"m for two reasons: as Torah, and for simchas YT.
> No less than driving to a YT amusement. No?
>
> :-)||ii!
> -mi


Is there a blanket hetter of tzorech hamoed for kesiva the way there is for
other melachos?  It seems that koseiv is much more chamur.  I remember from
when I looked up some of this stuff in MB a while back that the poskim are
mattir writing down chiddushim b/c of davar ha'aveid, but I don't remember
tzorech hamoed (or your automatic hetter of Torah) mentioned there.

Michael
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On 4/11/07, Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@bezeqint.net> wrote:
>
>
> The 2nd issue is based on the saying: "Just b/c I teach geometry, doesn't
> mean I'm a triangle..."
>
> There are shitot of learning that invest in the training of the mind of
> the
> student, in his ability to use logic and learn the meaning of the G'marot
> --
> but completely ignore any kind of spiritual/emotional content.  It is
> these
> shitot that bring about the existence of people who can be brilliant when
> it
> comes to understand a G'mara -- and lousy as human beings.  For them,
> there
> is no connection whatsoever between what they are learning and what they
> must do, how they should act.
>
> In another post on Avodah, someone quoted the tale of Rabbi Shimon Ben
> Shetach's donkey (IIRC). How many times have we heard this Rav's response
> and guidance on how to act quoted by lomdei G'mara?  In fact, many people
> act like his talmidim and not like the rav at all!
>
> It is interesting that davka many places that teach according to the
> method
> mentioned in the 2nd issue above -- brought in Mussar.


When Gemara is taught correctly, as not just a training of the mind but a
tool in refining the person, a blatt Gemara really can be the best mussar
seder.  When Limud Gemara is divorced from character development, a separate
mussar seder is needed.  The places that didn't bring in mussar didn't think
that character development isn't important - they just thought the same
goals could be accomplished with learning Gemara.  If Gemara is learned
properly - they're right.

Michael
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