Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 27

Thu, 22 Feb 2007

• 1. Chrein (Yisrael Medad)
• 2. Re: Chrein (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Chrein (Saul Guberman)
• 4. Re: Zchor Et Asher Assa Lecha Amaleck. Germania? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Chrein (Micha Berger)
• 6. shiur of kezayit (Eli Turkel)
• 7. Re: Ivrit (Jacob Farkas)
• 8. Re: Zipped (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Chrein (Saul Guberman)
• 10. Visiting the kevarim of parents/tzadikim (Aryeh Stein)
• 11. Re: Chrein (A & C Walters)
• 12. Re: Chrein (Daniel Israel)
• 13. Re: Chrein (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Chrein (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Chrein (Daniel Israel)
• 16. Parashat Zachor - Natzim and Amalek (Galsaba@aol.com)

DBannett" <dbnet@zahav.net.il> notes that his Galizianer
custom for maror was to eat a piece of horse radish with
some of the green sprouting attached. Then he switched to his
wife's minhag of Romaine lettuce.

I, too, stem for Galizianer stock (no sprouting of green leafy stuff,
though) - Brody and Zbarz.  I recall my grandfather doing that.  We stick
with the horseraddish - chrein is so much more authentic a term - but it is
ground to a pulp.  As such, as many of our Seder guest have testified, not
in words, of course, as they are to busy coughing and choking, it is
powerful and sharp and bitter, in short: maror.  We do, however, wrap in up
in Romaine lettuce, as is the EY custom.  Not quite a compromise but still,
a comfortable coexistence.

And its 'a freilicha Purim'.

-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
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On Thu, February 22, 2007 6:05 am, Yisrael Medad wrote:
:                                     We do, however, wrap [the chrein] up
: in Romaine lettuce, as is the EY custom.  Not quite a compromise but still,
: a comfortable coexistence.

Nothing involving eating fresh chrein makes the word "comfortable" come to mind.

My father used to do the same, but I think I succeeded in convincing him
otherwise.

My father follows the Brisker practice (probably via an RYBS Tues night shiur)
of dipping the maror into charoses in a way that no charoses stays on the
maror to interfere with tasting it.

Mima nafchach:
If chrein is not inferior, why break from minhag avos by introducing lettuce?
And if it is inferior, why is the powerful taste of chrein less of a problem
than charoses?

My own solution is to have two simultaneous sedarim -- textual and mimetic.

The big ke'arah in the middle of the table is al pi haAri. But I first take
from a small ke'arah near my seat arranged according to the Rama to avoid
problems with ein ma'avirin al hamitzvos. My koreich last year was first a
strip of soft matzah with romaine lettuce on it, rolled up -- karchah. Then, a
chrein sandwich between two cracker matzos. We quickly "daven through" the
hagadah, but also cover every point in the hagadah as a question-and-answer in
my children's first language. Etc..

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 2/22/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> My koreich last year was first a strip of soft matzah with romaine lettuce on it, rolled up -- karchah. Then, a  chrein sandwich between two cracker matzos.

I had been told that there are "problems" with Ashkenazim using soft
matzah on Pesach.  Could you enlighten me.  They sell soft matzah in
my neighborhood.

Saul

On Wed, February 21, 2007 6:38 am, Galsaba@aol.com wrote:
:  The Gemara in Megila Daf Vav Amud Beit mentions that Germamia is Edom, and
: Yabet"z says Germamia is Germania of today.   ie, Germania is Edom.
: so Germania is Edom.

The gemara seems to identify Edom with the Idumians (Herod's people), and from
there to Rome -- all different groups than those tribes being described here.
Also, the presence of any of these peoples in Persia in time for the Purim
story would be a rarity.

I therefore would stress the unclarity of whether the Gemara means the genetic
descendants of Eisav, or that one/some of the warring tribes of the Germany of
their era live Eisav's lifestyle.

And in either case, even if the land is the same, who knows the fate of the
particular tribe(s) from Edom?

: Do we have any sources (Mekorot) that refer to Germania as Amalek?
: or Edom as Amamlek?

All Amaleqim must also be from Edom, Amaleiq's grandfather. That doesn't
necessarily mean a particular group of Edomi are Amaleiqi.

I can, however, make an argument that the real Aryans might be or have merged
with the Amaleiqim.

There is nothing in the books of Paras uMadai about Purim. However, there is a
story of a resurgence of polytheism over Zoroastrianism which is then ended by
Cyrus. And the battle between the polytheists and the Zoroastrians got
violent. The leading ethnic group behind polytheism were the Aryans. It is
therefore possible that from the perspective of Persian history, our whole
trauma got subsumed as part of the general battle against monotheism.

Cyrus's monotheism was compromised by the belief that the Deity created two
minor gods -- one good/truth/light, and one evil -- who then created the
universe. Yeshaiah addresses this dualism when HQBH has him leave a message
for Cyrus that only one Creator "Yotzeir or uVorei chosekh, Oseh shalom uVorei
ra." (Discussion about Deutero-Isaiah and when Cyrus lived ellided.)

This version of the story would make Achashveirosh a puppet of the
polytheists, who put his Zoroastrian predecessor out of power. Haman is
described by chazal as being a leading polytheist, a political big shot who
wore AZ around his neck! No wonder Achashveirosh gave him power -- it was
Haman's party who were behind his getting the throne. The request to Vashti
can now be seen as an assertion of pagan celebration rather than her
Zoroastrian background. Although she was no picture of morality herself, her
notions of tzeni'us are very unpagan. And her refusal was thus not only
disobeying her husband, and insubordination to the king, it was also
threatening to the entire religious coalition that had him on the throne.

All of which would make it very plausible that Haman haAgagi was an Aryan.

The Germans, despite the claims of the Nazis y"sh, were not actually Aryans.
But assuming the name may have been incredibly telling.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Thu, February 22, 2007 10:59 am, R Saul Guberman wrote:
: I had been told that there are "problems" with Ashkenazim using soft
: matzah on Pesach.  Could you enlighten me.  They sell soft matzah in
: my neighborhood.

This isn't the first time we discussed it.

RHSchachter said there is absolutely no problem. It was reported here, and I 
double checked with him before acting lemaaseh.

R' Zev Sero brought an indication from the SA haRav that cracker-style matzos
weren't all that old when it was written. He also brought other ra'ayahos --
matzos were 1 tefach thick, made from an issaron of flour, enough for
everybody to get a kezayis without supplementing "from the box". See
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol12/v12n128.shtml#16>. So, it's not all that
ancient for Ashkenazim either.

As for preferable... How can one say "kein asah Hillel" and make a sandwich
when one has the ability to actually make a wrap, just as Hillel did?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

There is no one, to the best of my knowledge, who requires
eating "maximum" kezaysim in the smallest shiur of k'dei achilas
pras.  These are two contradictory chumros.  Since a pras is either 3
or four zeisim, the bigger the kazayis, the bigger the k'dei achilas
pras.  Thus, the matzo can be eaten at a normal pace; the machmirim
should eat for a longer period of time, until they complete their
shiur.>>

R. Shimin Eider says one should eat 2/3 of a machine matzah
(= 1/2 hand matzah) in 4 minutes.
This is 2 kezayitim in two kdei achilas pras.
I know of many who put the entire shiur in their mouth and then
add saliva to swallow it as fast as possible.
Doesnt sound like normel eating to me.

These shiurim are based on tosafot that a kezayit= 1/2 an egg (highly unlikely)
and that the egg has doubled in size and several other chumrot.
I dont understand the need for adding these chumrot together.
BTW R. Chaim Voloshin had a very small shiur based on modern day
olives.


-- 
Eli Turkel

>  > > On Wed, February 21, 2007 4:59 pm, R Zev Sero wrote:
>  > > : Lettuce.  I have no idea why Ivrit uses the word for horseradish,...
>  > >
>  > > Your nomenclature is faulty. There are rishonim who refer to Lashon 
> haQodesh
>  > > as "Lashon Ivri". The word "Ivrit" can't be used as though it 
> exclusively
>  > > means Aba"zit (Ivrit bat zamaneinu) without a modifier.
> 
R' Zev Sero wrote:
> But did those Rishonim use the "-it" suffix to turn a nation's name
> into the language that it speaks?  Nechemiah uses "Ashdodit" and
> "Yehudit", and the Mishnah uses "Yevanit", but AFAIK the Rishonim
> and Acharonim would have said "Lashon Ashdodi", or "Lashon Yehudi",
> or "Lashon Yevani".
> 

In an earlier discussion- 
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol17/v17n072.shtml#10
We referred to Sefer HaKuzari who uses the phrase 'Ivris.'

--Jacob Farkas

Yisrael Medad wrote:
> a) Shmot 28:7 notes that the two sections of the Ephod are simply to be 
> "chovrot" - attached/joined together.
> b)  the attachment mechanism doesn't seem to be by a button but by a 
> blue thread/string.  so "veyirkasu" doesn't necessarily have to mean 
> "they buttoned".

It can't mean that, because buttons (as a means of fastening) had not
yet been invented.  Buttons are relatively modern*.  At the time when
the Mennonites were founded, they were just coming into style; ordinary
people didn't wear them, but soldiers and other flashy dressers did.
Since Mennonites abhor both violence and flashiness, they banned the
wearing of buttons.  (Zips and velcro were still far in the future.)

* Actually, buttons themselves are ancient, but button*holes* are
a modern invention.  In ancient times, buttons were purely for
decoration (e.g. the kaftorim on the menorah).  Nobody thought of
turning them to practical use, by putting a button on one side of
an opening, and a hole opposite, and threading the button through
the hole.  That idea is modern.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On 2/22/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> As for preferable... How can one say "kein asah Hillel" and make a sandwich
> when one has the ability to actually make a wrap, just as Hillel did?

Is the "kein asah Hillel"  that you have a "shwarma in a laffa" or
that all the components are eaten together?

Saul

RSBA wrote (on Areivim):

>>>Some time ago we discussed davening at graves of tzadikim, which,
IIRC, Litvaks did not do.  Well check up what is going on in BB these
days, especially on yohrzeits of recent gedolim, eg Rav Shach zt'l.>>>

========================================
I am currently listening to a tape of R' Reisman's navi shiur from
last year (about the Kotzker), and R' Reisman mentioned a related
issue - visiting one's parent's kever on their yahrtzeit.  R' Pam,
z'l, wasn't in favor of those people who would take several days off
from work to fly to Israel for the yahrtzeit to visit the kever of the
parent.  According to R' Pam, it would be much better if the person
would spend those days (that he took off from work) learning in a beis
medrash and giving all of the money that he would have spent on
airfare and hotel and giving it to tzedakah instead.  (I imagine that
R' Pam was not a big fan of the annual pilgrimages to Uman.)

The Kotzker was not fond of the minhag of visiting the kevarim of
tzadikim:  "The tzadikim aren't there (i.e., at the kever), they are
right here (i.e., in the beis medrash, where their words of torah are
kept alive by their talmidim)."  IIRC, after the Kotzker was niftar,
his talmidim wanted to visit his kever on his yahrtzeit.  They asked a
shailah and were advised not to go, as this was not something the
Kotzker would've wanted.  Some of the talmidim went anyway and they
were met with a fierce rainstorm, which they understood to be a
message that they should've stayed home.....

KT,
Aryeh

> Mima nafchach:
> If chrein is not inferior, why break from minhag avos by introducing 
> lettuce?
> And if it is inferior, why is the powerful taste of chrein less of a 
> problem
> than charoses?

Because it is kemat impossible to eat a kesayis of real chrein within any 
space of time, let alone kdei acilas pras.

(Maybe to be someich on the Ta"z that holds that the shiur of shnapps is 
much less than a revi'is (beinyan brocho achrono), and on a shneps gleizel 
one can say borei nefoshes. We don't, however, pasken like the Ta"z here, as 
sofek brochos lekulo, but many (Chasidim) are soimech on the Ta"z to make 
Kiddish shabos morning with only a shneps gleizel of whisky)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Click here if you're stressed.  Solve your stress problems today
http://tags.bluebottle.com/fc/CAaCMPJmJAG1HaTZP8A05KgB4HrHLn9q/

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:07:03 -0700 A & C Walters 
<acwalters@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>(Maybe to be someich on the Ta"z that holds that the shiur of 
>shnapps is 
>much less than a revi'is (beinyan brocho achrono), and on a shneps 
>gleizel 
>one can say borei nefoshes. We don't, however, pasken like the 
>Ta"z here, as 
>sofek brochos lekulo, but many (Chasidim) are soimech on the Ta"z 
>to make 
>Kiddish shabos morning with only a shneps gleizel of whisky)

If one relies on a b'erech 3 fl. oz. revi'is, that's a standard 
double shot.  Is a "shneps gleizel" smaller than that? 

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

Micha Berger wrote:

> R' Zev Sero brought an indication from the SA haRav that cracker-style matzos
> weren't all that old when it was written.

I think I misremembered.  At least, I can't find it now.  What I did
find as a recent change is the emphasis on speed - the custom of doing
an entire batch, from adding the water to the flour until the final
baking, in less than 18 minutes.  That was a recent innovation.
The older custom had been to take a long time kneading the dough,
making sure it was thoroughly kneaded, and the 18-minute clock only
started once the dough was ready.  But by the SAH's day the modern
custom had caught on, and he seems to approve of it, but points out
that there is a down side - the dough can no longer be guaranteed to
be thoroughly kneaded, because of the rush to get it ready for rolling,
perforation, and baking.


> [the three] matzos were [...] made from an issaron of flour, enough for
> everybody to get a kezayis without supplementing "from the box"

It seems from the SAH that this was still the custom in his day; the
change to smaller matzot must have taken place even more recently.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Daniel Israel wrote:
> A & C Walters <acwalters@bluebottle.com> wrote:

>> sofek brochos lekulo, but many (Chasidim) are soimech on the Ta"z 
>> to make Kiddish shabos morning with only a shneps gleizel of whisky)

> If one relies on a b'erech 3 fl. oz. revi'is, that's a standard 
> double shot.  Is a "shneps gleizel" smaller than that? 

In my experience, a shot glass holds between 30 and 45 ml.

According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_glass
in the USA a single shot is 1.5 ounces, and a one-ounce glass is
called a "pony shot".  If this is the case, then a "double shot"
would indeed be a revi'is.  But I don't recall ever seeing such a
glass, and if I did I don't think I'd call it a "kelishek" or
"shnaps glezel".



-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:52:26 -0700 Zev Sero <zev@sero.name> wrote:
>Daniel Israel wrote:
>> A & C Walters <acwalters@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>
>>> sofek brochos lekulo, but many (Chasidim) are soimech on the 
>Ta"z 
>>> to make Kiddish shabos morning with only a shneps gleizel of 
>whisky)
>
>> If one relies on a b'erech 3 fl. oz. revi'is, that's a standard 
>> double shot.  Is a "shneps gleizel" smaller than that? 
>
>In my experience, a shot glass holds between 30 and 45 ml.
>
>According to Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_glass
>in the USA a single shot is 1.5 ounces, and a one-ounce glass is
>called a "pony shot".  If this is the case, then a "double shot"
>would indeed be a revi'is.  But I don't recall ever seeing such a
>glass, and if I did I don't think I'd call it a "kelishek" or
>"shnaps glezel".

Usually if I serve a double shot, I put it in a rocks glass, which 
is 6-8 ounces.  My point was not the glass, per se, but that a 
revi'is of whiskey is not an unreasonable amount to drink.  I just 
don't know if there is a reasonable cup to put it in so that one 
could have kos maleh and still no more than a 3 oz. revi'is.  Hence 
my question as to the size of a shneps gleizel.  Ain hachi nami 
that a typical shot glass would be a very mekiel shiur, while a 
normal kiddush cup would be a lot of shnaps.

Is there a difference between a "shnaps gleizel" and a "shot glass"?

--
Daniel M. Israel
dmi1@cornell.edu

I found on the website the article that he posted in March 2006.
Here is the link:
http://www.schechter.edu/news/media_060310_jpost.htm

The article was written by Harav Prof David Golinkin and was also posted on 
the Jerusalem Post back then.

This article is based on another article, more detailed with Mekorot and 
Simuchin, written by Harav Prof David Golinkin in March 2005. I could not find, 
however, that one, the one he posted on 2005.

Any help would be so much appreciated.

Thanks,

Aaron
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