Avodah Mailing List

Volume 22: Number 13

Wed, 20 Dec 2006

• 1. Re: Al petach beito mibachutz (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Al petach beito mibachutz (Dov Kay)
• 3. Re: zman hadloko erev shabbos and motzei shabbos (A & C Walters)
• 4. Re: zman hadloko erev shabbos and motzei shabbos (Akiva Blum)
• 5. Re: zman hadloko erev shabbos and motzei shabbos (T613K@aol.com)
• 6. zman hadloko erev shabbos and motzei shabbos (Danny Schoemann)
• 7. zman hadloko erev Shabbos and motzoei Shabbos (Dov Kay)
• 8. Re: Matisyahu, Pikuach Nefesh Dochah Shabbos (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 9. Re: zman hadloko erev Shabbos and motzoei Shabbos (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Matisyahu, Pikuach Nefesh Dochah Shabbos (Rich, Joel)

If you live in an apartment building you have a big question as to where to
light Chanuka candles.

There are 4 options:
1. Outside the front door of the building
2. Outside your apartment door
3. In a window facing the street
4. On your table inside

I will now explain the pros and cons of each one.

1. Outside the front door of the building - The gemara in Shabbos states
that the mitzva is to light right outside your door. However, if your door
opens up to a chatzer (courtyard) and not the street, we pasken that you
should light outside the door of the courtyard which opens to the street
(this is a machlokes Rashi and Tosafos). Based on the above, many poskim say
that the hall and stairwell of an apartment building is considered to be a
chatzer and therefore you should light outside the front door of the
building. However, the Chazon Ish disagress. The Chazon Ish claims for
various reasons (not for now) that the hallway and stairwell of an apartment
building are not considered to be a chatzer and therefore *you are not yotze
*if you light in front of the building as it has no connection to you.
2. Outside your door - This is problematic because it doesn't face the
street and no one can see it
3. In your window - this is good if you are on a low floor, however, if you
are on a higher floor above 20 Amos (approxiamtely 30 feet) then it doesn't
help to put it in your window. Some poskim claim that if there are other
apartments at your height around (across the street) then since those people
can see it at your level, that is called a window looking out to the Reshus
Harabim
4. On your table - This is the default option if you have no other choice.

The bottom line is it is hard to know what to do. I know people who light 2
menoras. 1 outside the building door to be yotze the opinion that the hall
and stairwell is a chatzer, however, to be yotze the Chazon Ish as well they
light in their window as well.
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<<I tried to light outside a few years ago, using a fish tank as a cover.>>

If I am not mistaken, the Aroch Hashulchan argues that Chazal never required 
one to acquire a glass box to protect the lights from wind and cold, which 
is why we do not light outside in Northern Europe.  However, when I lived in 
Australia, when Chanuka is in the summer, the lights would also blow out 
outside, as they do in Eretz Yisroel where the mitzva was instituted.

Rav M Sternbuch in Moadim uZemanim argues that in chutz la'aretz, one should 
never light outside, as this is the "sha'as sakana" that the Gemara is 
referring to.

I am personally uncomfortable with lighting outside in chutz la'aretz, just 
as I am with those wear tallisos over their jackets in the street on Shabbos 
or those who mount menoros on their cars...  This is galus.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay

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>
> To me, the fact that virtually everyone other than RAYW lights their
> Shabbos licht much more than 3 minutes before shkia is strong
> evidence (perhaps even meeting the definition of "proof") that the
> ikkar is *NOT* like Rabenu Tam in this.

First of all, I was talking about chanuka licht not shabbos licht. Shabbos 
licht we can be someich on R' Akiva Eiger that plag is only a siman that the 
lighting is lsheim shabbos and not leatsmoi. Since everyone is lighting at 
that time, it is nikar that it is lekovod shabbos, even though it's before 
plag. Chanuka, however, is different.

I think the reason why people light chanuka licht earlier is simply, that 
they don't know. I recently tried an experement. I asked a dozen or so 
talmudei chachomim, many of whom were rabbis, when is the zman plag lfi R"T. 
I was shocked that only 1 (my shvoger) knew. Most people think that plag is 
much earlier. It is actually a mefurushe biur halocho (Reish Samech Alef)

> (By the way, this "3 minute" shiur presumes that plag is calculated
> as 1.2 fixed 60-minute hours, rather than 1.2 shaos zmanios, or by
> some other calculation.)

To be honest, it makes very little difference if you go shaos zmanious or 
shaos shovious. The calculation is 1/20 of an hour before the shkia 
(according to the B"HL above) Using Sh"Sh, it is 3 minutes. Even if you use 
Sh"Zm, which at least here (in Beis Shemesh) means that every hour is about 
66 minutes (actually less) then a 20th is still only 3mins and 20secs. So 
the variation is about 2-4 minutes before the shkia.


> But for those to whom his is not the ikkar opinion, 2.5
> minutes is a very dangerous policy......... can easily create variations 
> which will put the candle
> lighting to actually be after shkia.

Even after shkia is only a sfek sfaika (see RMF and ROY) so to be choshesh 
geometric pressure etc. which MAY possibly (but probably not) lead to an 
early shkia, is something that one does not need to worry about.

AYW

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RAYWalters Beis Shemesh wrote:

> >The bigger problem is Friday night. According to Halocho, the zman (at least 
   >on Friday) is from Plag HaMincha. This is an hour and a quarter (75 minutes) 
   >before Tteis. (According to the Levush, before shkia). For those who hold 
   >R"T l'iker hadin, it means that plag is only 3 minutes before shkia (as the 
   >BH"l points out Reis Samech Alef, beinyan tosefes shabes). 

On seif beis d"h lehakdim

I don't understand this cheshbon.
Accoring to RT, visable shkiah is irrelavant. It should follow that calculating the length of a 'hour' would include the 72 minutes after shkiah and 72 before haneitz. Total minutes in a day is 864 (instead of 720 acc. To Gra).
One hour is 864/12=72 minutes. One and a quater hours is 72*1.25=90 minutes. So plag is 90 minutes before 72 after shkiah which is... 18 minutes (zmanios, in the winter)  before shkiah.

Where did I go wrong?

Akiva
  

 
 
R' AYW writes:
 
>>I personally don't see why we have to be somech on the Levush,  and I light 
2.5 minutes before the shkia on Friday. <<
 
.
Does that mean you light the menorah after your wife lights Shabbos  candles? 
 I thought that was not the preferred order.  And when do you  daven mincha 
and kabalas Shabbos?  Even if you have a minyan a few seconds'  walk from your 
front door, you are pushing it.  I guess my real question  is, why do you have 
to be different from everyone else?  (Please read that  question with a 
conversational, not argumentative, tone of voice.)

--Toby  Katz
=============


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R' A & C Walters wrote:
>There is much dispute as to when is the correct time to light Chanuke licht
Friday evening and Mot"Sh.

Not really. There's a single line siman (679) - so short it doesn't
even have a heading - that says you light before candle-lighting. The
RMO adds that we make the brocho even though it's still broad day
light (Od hayom Godol).

>Mot"Sh is the smaller of the problems, because we
>can be someich on the RaM"A and can light later than the zman.

I don't get it. Chazal "invented" this mitzva and were fully aware of
the Shabbos issues. There's not a chance that they requested us to go
anywhere near chillul Shabbas to light Chanuka candles.

Let's think for a moment. From a Torah POV:
- We didn't blow shofar this year on RH because of a remote suspicion
that some illiterate fellow may go to a Rov with his shofar in a place
w/o an Eruv.

- We didn't  shake lulav this year for a similar reason.

Yet we are expected to light 8 candles this year 2.5 minutes before
shki'a!?!?! Whatever happened to Tosefes Shabbos? Or Chilul Shabbos?

>The Brisker Rov ztvk"l claims that the zman hadloko mot"sh is different to
> the rest of the week
Um, it's the SA actually. 681:1. But even if it weren't written, it's
obvious that Chazal wouldn't make a mitzva that's impossible to do.

The part about getting his daughter to light the match I don't
believe. Is his Gan Eden more precious than hers?

>I remember one year walking to Mincha one shabbos Chanuka and looking
> at the freshly lit menoyros as I passed)

I well be live that.  Since we daven maariv on Mot"Sh-Chanuka 18
minutes after sunset, we are ready to light before (the bare minimum
35 minute) Mot"Sh. I often have to stop the Shamash from messing with
the candles before this time.

>I personally <snip> even if it were to be a mistake in the
luach/clock, there is
> still a Sf"Sf which one could be somech on, bedieved.

I personally finish lighting all our Chanuka candles before the 40
minute siren, so that my wife can light at the siren. I start a few
minutes after plag.

I am very makpid that we always light Shabbos candles at the siren
because if you miss that time you run into Chillul Shabbos. I know so
many people who jump into the shower after the siren and leave other
work till after the siren. Before you know it you're mechallel Shabbos
- and I've seen it over and over again. Why? Because the kids grow up
knowing that the siren is meaningless and in their home Shabbos starts
after the shower.
In my house Shabbos starts with candle lighting at the siren. We don't
answer the phone thereafter, we don't mess with the blech and we do
any other melocho. It's now Shabbos. This way, even if in an emergency
we run late by 2-3 minutes we are nowhere near trouble.

It's very nice to be machmir in all shitos of Chanuka candles, however
Shabbos takes precedence - with all it's chumros. I guarantee that if
you do it my way you won't get any gehinom for it, even if all goes
wrong and your clock is slow, the luach is off and the wicks give you
trouble.

A freilichen chanuke

- Danny

<<... those who are noheg "shtot zman" should light then, R"T, for them it 
is their zman", an achtel, a sechxtel etc. (He himself would normally take 
out Shabbos very late, but Mo"S Chanuka he davened by the achtel, and lit by 
the sechxtl >>

Forgive my ignorance.  What is an achtel or a sechxtel?  Eighth or sixth of 
what? The night?  Out of interest, which authorities use this terminology 
(or its Hebrew equivalent)?

<<For those who hold R"T l'iker hadin,>>

Who holds like R"T nowadays m'ikar hadin?  I haven't even seen chassidim 
doing melacha after sh'kiah.  Are you saying that they are merely acting 
l'chumra?

<<The truth is, we don't pasken like the Yeraim, whereas we do pasken like 
R"T (royv rishonim, Sh"O, RaM"O, Baal HaTanya (in sefer, not in siddur), 
Chasam Sofer, Satmar Rov, Klausenberger Rov, Minchas Cohen (in sefer Bein 
HaShmoshes,

The sefer is entitled Minchas Cohen.  Bein haShemashos is a section of that 
sefer, the other section dealing with taaroves

Again, do we in fact pasken like R"T?  Puk chazi mai ama davar.

Incidentally, the Minchas Cohen and Chasam Sofer actually agree that the 
sighting of 3 stars marks the end of bein haShemashos, even before 72 
minutes have elapsed.  LAD, the Minchas Cohen's position is untenable - he 
tries to jibe R"T's 72 minutes (even allowing for latitude and season) with 
the visible reality in Amsterdam, where 3 stars emerge much earlier than 72 
minutes.  He concludes by attributing the discrepancy to the altitude of 
Amsterdam and atmospheric conditions.  I don't believe that this can in fact 
account for the discrepancy he observed.  RMF's position is also very 
difficult for the same reason.  He argues that 72 minutes fits the reality 
in eastern Europe, but not in NYC, so that m'ikar hadin one can take out 
Shabbos earlier than 72 minutes after sh'kiah in NYC.  Apart from the fact 
that R"T, the Ramban and other rishonim did not live in White Russia, they 
were giving the z'man for Eretz Yisrael/Bavel, which Rabbi Yehudah in the 
Gemara was no doubt discussing.

It is also not clear that the Sh"O paskens like Rabeinu Tam, as there 
appears to be a s'tira between his position in Hilchos Shabbos and that in 
Hilchos Mila (see the Shach there).  See the excellent modern sefer 
HaZ'manim B'halacha, who discusses the position of the mechaber, citing 
authorities that he held like the Geonim, as we have evidence that that was 
the minhag in Tzfat in his day.

I also seem to recall ROY arguing that in fact rov rishonim held like the 
Geonim, not R"T.

In any event, this particular machlokes seems to be a classic case of minhag 
Yisroel (at least since WWI) being machria the halacha against the position 
of a substantial number, if not the majority, of rishonim.

<<I personally don't see why we have to be somech on the Levush, and I light
2.5 minutes before the shkia on Friday. (Since I hold R"T iker hadin).>>

I don't follow you.  Do you mean that because you hold like R"T, you do not 
want to be somech on the Levush?  If so, I am sure you are aware that the 
Levush himself held like R"T.  If you mean that you are not too concerned if 
you happen to light after sh'kiah, I think, if you will excuse the pun, that 
you are playing with fire.  I know of no contemporary Orthodox community 
which condones the performance of melacha after sh'kia nowadays, even 
amongst chassidim, but RSBA or RZS will no doubt correct me if I am wrong.

Rov tefutzos yisroel now hold like the Levush m'ikar hadin (and Gra, Baal 
haTanya, etc), unless you happen to be a chossid. The Mishna Berura also 
rules that one may light Shabbos candles from the p'lag of the Levush.

With respect, I think that your maskana is a good example of how a "being 
yotzei l'chol hadeios" approach to halacha can in fact lead in the other 
direction.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay

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R' Elchanan Schulgasser:

As told, the Yavanim would wait until Shabbos and then go out to find the
caves in which Jews were hiding in order to kill them (the Jews) while they
(again the Jews) were defenseless. This slaughter went on until Matisyahu
told everyone that pikuach nefesh is dochah Shabbos. 

 

Of course, there are questions on this (not the least of which is you didn't
need Matisyahu to know that PN is dochah Shabbos) and the shiur answers many
of them. But my question is simply if anyone could point me to the source of
this...Chazal? Rishon? 

 

 

 

 

Our local radio station played a lecture from Rabbi Irons (Detroit) tonight,
who mentioned this. It's in I Maccabees 2:32-41, available at
http://www.hope.edu/bandstra/BIBLE/1MA/1MA2.HTM. Rabbi Irons explained that
the Jews felt that it was futile to be Mechalel Shabbos, they would be
killed either way. Matisyahu was "m'chadesh" that they could, and would,
win.

 

KT and ALC,

MYG

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Dov Kay wrote:
> RMF's position is also very 
> difficult for the same reason.  He argues that 72 minutes fits the reality 
> in eastern Europe, but not in NYC, so that m'ikar hadin one can take out 
> Shabbos earlier than 72 minutes after sh'kiah in NYC.  Apart from the fact 
> that R"T, the Ramban and other rishonim did not live in White Russia, they 
> were giving the z'man for Eretz Yisrael/Bavel, which Rabbi Yehudah in the 
> Gemara was no doubt discussing.

AIUI, he is in fact explicitly *rejecting* RT's shita, and saying that
even in White Russia they did not pasken like RT but like the geonim.
Had they paskened like RT, they would have waited far longer than 72
minutes on the clock.  Since their minhag was to wait exactly 72 clock
minutes, it must have had nothing to do with RT.  Rather, RMF says,
it just happened that in those places the BHShM of the geonim, at the
solstices (i.e. the longest BHShM of the year) came to approximately
72 minutes or a bit less, so in the absence of calculated charts they
kept that shiur a whole year.  The coincidence of 72 minutes being
the longest BHShM of the geonim in those parts, and RT using the term
"72 minutes", led to people incorrectly and confusingly referring to
their practise as "RT".  Since in our latitudes the longest BHShM of
the year is much shorter than 72 minutes, we have no need to wait that
long.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

 

	R' Elchanan Schulgasser:

	As told, the Yavanim would wait until Shabbos and then go out to
find the caves in which Jews were hiding in order to kill them (the
Jews) while they (again the Jews) were defenseless. This slaughter went
on until Matisyahu told everyone that pikuach nefesh is dochah Shabbos. 

	 

	Of course, there are questions on this (not the least of which
is you didn't need Matisyahu to know that PN is dochah Shabbos) and the
shiur answers many of them. But my question is simply if anyone could
point me to the source of this...Chazal? Rishon? 

	 

	 

	 

	 

	Our local radio station played a lecture from Rabbi Irons
(Detroit) tonight, who mentioned this. It's in I Maccabees 2:32-41,
available at http://www.hope.edu/bandstra/BIBLE/1MA/1MA2.HTM. Rabbi
Irons explained that the Jews felt that it was futile to be Mechalel
Shabbos, they would be killed either way. Matisyahu was "m'chadesh" that
they could, and would, win.

	 

	KT and ALC,

	MYG 

	=============================

	Interesting, is it pashut that you are not mchallel shabbat in
P"N situation if you think it would be futile even for chayei shaah?  I
thought not.

	KT
	Joel Rich 

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