Avodah Mailing List

Volume 22: Number 12

Wed, 20 Dec 2006

• 1. Re: Al petach beito mibachutz (A & C Walters)
• 2. Re: [Areivim] URL: article about halachic (Chana Luntz)
• 3. Re: Historu of Havarah (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Al petach beito mibachutz (A & C Walters)
• 5. Re: Kosher Food vs. Lifnei Iver (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Al petach beito mibachutz (David Cohen)
• 7. Re: Kosher Food vs. Lifnei Iver (Mordechai Torczyner)
• 8. shabbos chanukah (Samuel Groner)
• 9. Re: Al petach beito mibachutz (Zev Sero)
• 10. Glatt Yosher? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Glatt Yosher? (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: zman hadloko erev shabbos and motzei shabbos (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 13. Re: History of Havarah (D&E-H Bannett)
• 14. Re: Yetzer HoRa Issues (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: Al petach beito mibachutz (A & C Walters)

> Is there a good reason why I've never heard of anyone in chu"l doing
> it that way, even where the weather permits it?

The reason is that kmat all poskim hold it's better to to light inside. The 
question is, why in E"Y to light outside. The reason is that many in E"Y 
follow minhogei HaGr"o, and Talmudei HaGr"o claimed to light outside. The 
Th"G were the first Ashkenaisim to come to E"Y, and a lot of their minhogim 
were mekubel, eg. not to say BHLA"A before She"Es Maariv (as far I know no 
kehila in E"Y says it, whereas in Ch"l, most do), also zman hashkia, also to 
say "kavei" after shacharis, which in Ch"l Ashkenaz doesn't say, also Morid 
HaTal, which again is not said in Ch"l by Mispaleli Askenaz, Boruchu after 
davening, duchening etc etc. These are all Minhogei HaGr"o, and have no 
shayches to E"Y beEtzem, only that minhog haGro is followed. Hu HaDin 
lighting outside. (agav, even in E"Y it is not mekubel by rov kehillos)


AY W

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RDI wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Dec 2006 05:04:34 -0700 Chana Luntz 
> <chana@kolsassoon.org.uk> wrote:
> >Also I do wonder - the mitzvah of pru u'rvu we generally seem to
> >hold,
> >occurs only upon the birth of the children (of the correct sex) -
> >whereas does not the mitzvah of yibum has its kiyum in the act 
> >itself?
> 
> It's not so clear, IIRC.  See, for example, Chagiga 2b, Tosfos D"H 
> Lisa Shifcha, where it appears that the mitzvah occurs with "gamar 
> biah."  Again, if IIRC later meforshim discuss this point exactly.  
> See also the Minchas Chinuch.  
> 

Yes, I know, I was actually trying to be precise in using the
phraseology "we generally seem to hold".  

The thing is this - if you hold like this tosphos then in the case of
IVF (or artificial insemination for that matter) there is no ma'ase
biah, and hence no gmar biah and hence no kium of the mitzvah of pru
'urvu, no matter how many children may be produced by such method.  I
believe there have been poskim who hold this but "we generally seem to
hold" that in fact IVF etc is a fulfilment of the mitzvah of pru u'rvu -
as can be seen by the responses on this list suggesting that with the
existence of IVF, artificial insemination etc, there is no need to mess
around with the shiva nekiim (this is despite this being based, as you
point out, on achronic analysis, such as that of the Minchas Chinuch).
And there are certainly enough poskim (Rav Moshe springs to mind) who
held you could fulfil pru u'rvu by means of these technologies.

If you did want to be choshesh for these other opinions, though, that
provides an additional reason to look at heterim that involve the shiva
nekiim rather than heterim that involve modern technology.

> --
> Daniel M. Israel
> dmi1@cornell.edu

Regards

Chana

Micha Berger wrote:

> Genetic tests on Ashkenazim (eg studies on Tay Sachs) show that a thousand
> year ago, there were amazingly few Ashkenazi families.

Or else that there were a lot of Ashkenazim who have no living descendants.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Loit the Brisker Rav ztvk"l anyone who lights indoors (in E"Y) is not only 
not yoitzeh, but has made a brocho levatolo. He is, however, in this regard 
a daas yochid, and royv light indoors even in E"Y. Only the Talmidei HaGro 
(Perushim) light outside these days.

However the Bnei Yisoscher and Minchas Yitzchok both claim it's better to 
light indoors. Another Shu"t sefer (whose name escapes me, but I can check 
tommorow in kollel) claims that anyone who lights outdoors makes a zilzul of 
all the rishonim who say to light indoors.


AYW
Beis Shemesh

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On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 07:13:11PM -0800, Chanani Sandler wrote:
: I have the opportunity to provide my colleague with sufganiyot and
: "chanukah gelt" chocolates for Chanukah, but he may not recite a
: Bracha....

Restauraneurs do this all the time.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

IIRC there's a tshuva by R SZA in Minchat Shlomo  permitting if the
issue involves otherwise
causing hatred of Yiddishkeit then we would override lifnei iver (iirc
lifnei iver
looks at the total impact of the act)
KT
Joel Rich
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R' Mordechai Torczyner wrote:
> Since we say hadlakah oseh mitzvah, the menorah must be able to last
> the proper length of time at the moment I light it, but with the cover raised
> the menorah could not last the requisite time!

For a number of reasons (possibly including the one above), I tend to
agree that what Chazal had in mind was not lighting in glass cases.
The question, though, is what they did have in mind, given that the
only reasons given why one might light inside are "dar ba-`aliyah" and
"sakanah," with no mention of the wind.

Is there anywhere in Eretz Yisrael where the weather is such that one
can be nearly certain that exposed candles will stay lit for half an
hour?  Does anybody on the list (either in EY or elsewhere) light
outside without a glass case and have the candles successfully stay
lit?

The only answer I can think of (though I wouldn't actually act on it)
is that when the amora'im addressed the issue of relighting an
extinguished candle (kavesah, zakuk lah / eino zakuk lah), it was a
fairly regular occurence.  This would mean that either the chumrah
mentioned by RMT is not, in fact, a correct inference from "hadlakah
`oseh mitsvah," or that the standard is somewhat lower than 100%
certainty -- perhaps it would suffice for there to be a 50% chance
that it will stay lit.

--D.C.

The argument of providing kosher food doesn't really work; there is no way to know that you are causing this person to eat less treif by providing this food.

But more to the point, the issue is Lifnei Iver, as well as omitting Hocheiach Tochiach. Rav Moshe dealt with this in Igros Moshe Orach Chaim 5:13. Serving buffet style seems to be an appropriate way to handle the situation, especially if there is a concern for eivah.

Also worth noting: See a remarkable article by Rav Shlomo Wahrman in HaDarom #68-69 (Elul 5759), in which he justifies a travel agent selling a ticket for a Shabbat flight to a Jew!

Be well,
Mordechai


--
Congregation Sons of Israel, 
Allentown, PA 
http://www.sonsofisrael.net 
HaMakor! 
http://www.hamakor.org 
Mareh Mekomos Reference Library 
Webshas! 
http://www.webshas.org 
Index to the Talmud
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On erev shabbat chanukah, we obviously must light nerot chanukah
before sunset.  As the Aruch Hashulchan explains (OH 679:4), since
there is no other possibility, baal korcho the chiyuv is chal on us
during the daytime.  Thus, there is no problem with saying the brocha
"lehadlik ner shel chanukah" even at a time that, like last friday
night, was not even chanukah yet, since there is no other possibility.
 The lighting must be done before shabbos, the brocha has to be at the
time of the lighting, and thus the brocha "le'hadlik ner" must be
recited while it is still the previous day.

But why do we not wait to say the brocha of she-asah nissim until it
is nighttime?  The brocha of she-asah nissim can be said on just
seeing chanukah candles -- as in the case of a person who is on a
trip, is mishtatef with another to light for him in another city, and
who says she-asah nissim upon seeing chanukah candles burning in a
stranger's window.  So on friday nights, why don't we wait to say
"she-asah nissim" until the proper time, when the candles will still
be burning?

I'm assuming that an answer could involve some sort of explanation
that since the chiyuv of nerot chanukah is in fact chal during daytime
because of the impossibility of other options vis-a-vis the lighting,
we can and should say she-asah nissim at that time as well. But I'm
wondering if anyone knows of sources discussing this question or
raising the hava amina that we should wait to say she-asah nissim
until after nightfall.  If (like the rashba?) the kiyyum hamitzvah
doesn't occur until nightfall even though we say the brocha of
"lehadlik ner" on the masseh hamitzvah while it's still day, why would
we necessarily assume that the brocha of she-asah nissim should be
said at the time of the maaseh hamitzvah rather than at the time of
the kiyum hamitzvah?

Happy Chanukah,

Sammy Groner

A & C Walters wrote:

>> Is there a good reason why I've never heard of anyone in chu"l doing
>> it that way, even where the weather permits it?
 
> The reason is that kmat all poskim hold it's better to to light inside.

Which poskim hold that it's better to light inside?  I thought everyone
agreed that lighting inside is bediavad, a concession to goyim, weather,
and other practical difficulties.  (BTW it's much colder today, so I'm
not planning to light outside this evening.)

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

RGS, on Hirhurim, links to <http://tinyurl.com/yym5rc , a Forward article.

> Nathaniel Popper | Mon. Dec 18, 2006
> Leaders of Conservative Judaism are planning to create a new ethical
> certification system for kosher food...
> Conservative movement leaders said that they plan to establish a "tsedek
> hekhsher," or a justice certification, that would ensure kosher food
> producers have met a set of standards that determine the social responsibility
> of kosher food producers, particularly in the area of workers rights."

> The new certification appears be the first effort by an Jewish religious
> movement to provide oversight on labor issues. It would also be the first
> time that the Conservative movement would be involved in certifying food
> producers on a national level...

There is an obvious logistic problem -- the subject is a very politicized one,
so that one group's definition of "social responsibility" isn't necessarily
mine. However, assuming we overcome it by having groups from my own bent...

Why aren't I as concerned with someone checking that my food is glatt yosher?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

 
.

Why aren't I as concerned with someone checking that my food is glatt
yosher?

Tir'u baTov!
-mi
===================================================
1. No one else is so there is no societal pressure on you.
2. Kashrut is specifically in the cheftza you're eating, yosher makes
you at worst msayea and you have a right to rely on the sellers "chezkat
yosher" without further investigation?
3. Prior generations were not concerned with this and they had great
Rabbis so it must not be a problem
4. No mixed or belly dancing is involved :-)

KT
Joel Rich
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Thank you.

R' AY Walters wrote:
> According to Halocho, the zman (at least on Friday) is from
> Plag HaMincha. This is an hour and a quarter (75 minutes)
> before Tteis. (According to the Levush, before shkia). For
> those who hold R"T l'iker hadin, it means that plag is only
> 3 minutes before shkia ... I personally don't see why we have
> to be somech on the Levush, and I light 2.5 minutes before
> the shkia on Friday. (Since I hold R"T iker hadin).

To me, the fact that virtually everyone other than RAYW lights their 
Shabbos licht much more than 3 minutes before shkia is strong 
evidence (perhaps even meeting the definition of "proof") that the 
ikkar is *NOT* like Rabenu Tam in this.

(By the way, this "3 minute" shiur presumes that plag is calculated 
as 1.2 fixed 60-minute hours, rather than 1.2 shaos zmanios, or by 
some other calculation.)

For those who do hold R"T to be the ikar, 2.5 minutes sounds 
reasonable. But for those to whom his is not the ikkar opinion, 2.5 
minutes is a very dangerous policy. Even if one knows his clock to be 
accurate, and even if his zmanim chart is calculated for his 
neighborhood (not merely his city), details like the altitude of his 
home and surrounding hills, and current barometric pressure, and 
other factors, can easily create variations which will put the candle 
lighting to actually be after shkia.

Re:  R' Micha's posting on correct or original havara 
including<<we know that true Ashkenaz havarah had a distinct 
ayin. (Ask any boy nicknamed "Yankl".) It dropped out 
because the local languages had no such sound. Is this 
change
"real", or is the mesorah with an /ng/ ayin? And once we say 
we should
revert this shift, how many are similar but simply too old 
to know?>>

This has been discussed on Mesorah and a number of times I 
have questioned the idea that we revert for the simple 
reason that changes in pronunciation have been going on 
continuosly. To which era do we revert? The same goes for 
nusach hatefilla. At what point in history do we set the end 
of "correct" nusach.

Did those rabbanim who objected to the change in EY to 
Israeli pronunciation from their particular form of Ashkenaz 
pronunciation realize that their pronunciation was not the 
same as the Ashkenazi pronunciation of some hundreds of 
years ago.  For example, the evidence  is quite strong that 
Rashi's "Ashkenazi" pronunciation was very close to what is 
now known as the Sefaradic pronunciation.

A good book on this subject is the "Sefat Emet" of Rav 
Ben-Zion HaCohen (of Jerba - no connection to the Gerrer).


k"t,

David

On Fri, December 15, 2006 8:28 am, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: Your initial words say that the YH is "a drive to do evil", but if
: you are presuming "an innate knowledge of good and evil", then it
: seems to me that what you really mean is that the YH is "a drive to
: do things that are evil, regardless of whether or not the person has
: been taught which things are evil and which are not."
: I agree that this is an untenable definition. It seems to require
: some sort of magically-acquired innate knowledge of what is good and
: what is bad.

This is what I was saying, but without invoking magic. After all, the soul
comes from a realm where good and evil are self-evident (at least to
mal'akhim). The knowledge could be buried down deep within the soul, without
considering it more mysterious than anything else about the soul.

After all, the concept of YH is simply another way of looking at the concept
of the Satan (and the mal'akh hamaves, to complete the triad), and the Satan
exists to challenge one away from doing good -- not just what one thinks is
good.

Add to that the complication that "doing what I think is evil" is itself an
absolute evil, even when I am wrong and doing something that would otherwise
be okay. But let's leave that in the back of our minds, lest this conversation
become impossible.

: I would prefer to say that the YH is a drive to do the things which
: one understands to be evil, regardless of whether or not they
: actually *are* evil.

: This solves your problem of the tinoq shenishba, because it is not
: the Yetzer Hara which drives him to do this aveira or that, but a
: simple lack of knowing these halachos.

I don't really have a problem with TS, I was using this to disprove the
literalness of YH. But your definition isn't even as non-literal as most.

:> Ever notice how we often end up teitching YH in ways
:> that don't make it inherently evil? Why?

: Because it's *not* inherently evil. In fact, the Medrash says that
: the YH is *very good*. (I could've sworn Rashi brought that Medrash.
: Good thing I checked before posting. It's in the Ramban on Bereshis
: 1:31.)

Which means it's not even an inclination to do evil which is then channeled by
my impressions of what evil is. That was the point I was setting out to prove.
Even if my TS question only makes half my point.

For example, early in this thread RDE suggested to RYGB that he speak about
dimyon vs seichel. Is dimyon inherently "ra"? A navi would clearly say
otherwise. (Although nevu'ah did end at the same time that the YH for avodah
zarah appeared as a dimyon of a burning lion emerging from the Qodesh
haQedashim and was trapped in a pot.)

So it would seem to me that people consistently define YH as a yeitzer whose
results tend to be evil: impulsivity, unbridled imagination (both in contrast
to seichel), hedonism (in contrast to sanctity), etc... Not one whose actions
are defined as a draw to evil itself.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

See Bnei Yissoscur, Minchas Yitschok,  shu"t mishneh schir, minhag yisroel 
torah brings down more

> Which poskim hold that it's better to light inside?  I thought everyone
> agreed that lighting inside is bediavad, a concession to goyim, weather,
> and other practical difficulties.  (BTW it's much colder today, so I'm
> not planning to light outside this evening.)

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