Avodah Mailing List

Volume 21: Number 5

Fri, 10 Nov 2006

• 1. taking off chalah from cake dough (Gershon Dubin)
• 2. FW: Noach and Lashon T'horah (M Cohen)
• 3. taking off challah from cake dough (M Cohen)
• 4. min happesochim umin hazzevochim (Minden)
• 5. Re: taking off chalah from cake dough (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 6. Re: taking off chalah from cake dough (reuven koss)
• 7. Re: Reason for Hamotzi ? (Yzkd@aol.com)
• 8. Re: taking off chalah from cake dough (Samuel Svarc)
• 9. Re: What is the source for the minhag of Chasidim to etc. .... (D&E-H Bannett)
• 10. Minhag for women to abstain from work on Rosh Chodesh (Dr. Josh Backon)
• 11. Re: honey [was: Hakafot on Shmini Atzeret] (Micha Berger)
• 12. shmuel's nevua (cbk)
• 13. Re: Minhag for women to abstain from work on Rosh Chodesh (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: taking off chalah from cake dough (Arie Folger)
• 15. Tea as kalei habishul (Steven J Scher)
• 16. Re: Peshat (was Re: Rav Keller's JO article on evolution ) (Micha Berger)
• 17. taking off chalah from cake dough (Ilana Sober)

From: Sterling Touch <sterlingtouch@yahoo.com>

<< Someone just told me that one is required to remove chalah from cake
dough as well as bread dough. Has anybody else heard this?>>

It's not likely to happen that someone will bake a shiur chala of cake
except commercially, but yes it is chayav bechala.  

<<Is there a difference between  a commercial baker and home baker?>>

Only if it's chala tehora that's given to a kohen.  If it's tamei and
burned, as we do, a little dab'll do you.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

>>It always bothered me: The Torah nevertheless does use the lashon "tamei"
many times (my CD search came up with 238). What happened to the concern for
lashon nekiah?


I heard from R Yitzhak knobel (in the name of R Yaakov kaminetsky ? the
following explanation:

..actually 'tamei' is not technically a lashon ainah nekiah, and the torah
c/ have used tamei here too (and therefore uses everywhere else)

however since the flood was brought on thru the avairah of znus (Rashi 6:12
& 6:13), and we know that the nivel peh is a common pesach that can lead to
znus, the torah goes out of its way here to be extra careful with its
loshon.

Mordechai Cohen

certainly one has to take challah even from a liquid dough (ie cake batter)
w/ a brocha

however, in most home cooking scenarios it is not applicable, as most pple's
mixers don't make the amt of dough that  would req hafrashos challah (and
the tziruf that pple do with bread dough is usually not done with cake
batter)

see http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-issues-challah.htm

Mordechai Cohen

Dr. Guggenheimer in his "Scholarly Haggadah" writes (p. 323-4):

"The manuscript sources of the Talmudim have either "there we shall eat from the Pesah sacrifices and the family offerings" or "there we shall from the Pesah sacrifices."  The family offering is the festive sacrifice ([hagiga]) offered on the Fourteenth of Nisan according to the rules of [zebah shelamim], a sacrifice in redemption of a vow (Lev. 3).  The order followed today, "there we shall eat from the family offerings and Pesah sacrifices, " appears in the text of Maimonides and, as an explicit correction of the mishnaic text, in the collection of decisions and rules from the school of R. Meir of Rothenburg known as Mordokhai (Pesahim, p. 66a), with the justification that the zewah [sic], the family sacrifice, precedes the Pesah in the order of the meal.  [...]  In some Ashkenazic circles one follows the rule of R. Jacob Weilla [sic] (Responsa MaHaRIW #193)  [footnote 292] to recite the benediction in the original order of the Mishna, "from the Pesah sacrifices and he fami
 ly  
offerings" if the Seder is held Saturday night since then it was not possible to slaughter the hagigah during the Sabbath and only the Pesah was offered since its slaughter, by biblical commandment, is required on the Fourteenth of Nisan and therefore overrides the Sabbath prohibition of slaughter in general. The medieval Sefer Ha'ittur [footnote 293] reports the R, Jacob of Orl?ans (martyred in the pogrom of London, Sept. 3, 1189) for this reason did not put an egg on the Seder plate on Saturday night. The author notes that there are other reasons than the Sabbath that also eliminate the obligation to bring a hagigah and therefore nothing should be changed Satuday night.  This is also the opinion of his contemporary, R. Isaac, the nephew of Rabbenu Tam, known as RI, the greatest halakhic authority among the Tosafists (Tosafot Pesahim 114b, s.v. [ehad]) [footnote 294] and, therefore, the generally accepted practice is not to make any changes.

292. uksheyavo pesah bemotza-e shabbath yomar min happesahim umin hazzevahim de-en hegiga kereva beshabbath uvlel sheni yomar min hazzevahim umin happesahim dehegiga ne-ekheleth kodem happesah, vehu haddin bish-ar yemoth hashshavua.

293. veshamati al r. ya-ekov mei-orleans lo haya ose bepesah shehal lihyoth bemotza-e shabbath ella tavshil ehad lefi she-en hegiga doha keditnan ematay mevi immo hegiga bizman shebba betahara ku' ubahol ubammo-ed ve-al yeshanne adam d'"k keshebba bahol en ba-in betahara ve-en mevi-in immo hegiga.

294. keshehal y"d lihyoth beshabbath en tzarikh rak bishshul ehad dehegigath y"d eni doha shabbath umihu omer r"y demikkol makom en lehallek dedame lehova im hayinu menihim milla-esot shene tavshilin vegam yesh lahush shemma lo ya-esu bish-ar pesahim.


Lipman Phillip Minden
http://lipmans.blogspot.com

> From: Sterling Touch <sterlingtouch@yahoo.com>
> 
> << Someone just told me that one is required to remove chalah from cake
> dough as well as bread dough. Has anybody else heard this?>>
R' GD: 
> It's not likely to happen that someone will bake a shiur chala of cake
> except commercially, but yes it is chayav bechala.


I've heard that some Poskim hold that if someone bakes lots of cake, pachos
pachos m'k'shiur, and then sticks them all into the freezer, the freezer is
m'tzaref them, and they become m'chuyav in Challah.

KT,
MYG

P.S. Sorry, no source! 

 Just as there are different types of dough so to  there are different
 levels of chiyuv regarding separating challah.   the difference is
dependant
 on how "thick" is the dough,  how much dough, and what does with the dough.
  generally speaking; a thick dough that has a shiur of chiyuv hafrashas
 challa is chayav hafrasha with a bracha. if it is not so thick, then there
  are times that one is mafrish after it is baked. and there are times one
is
 only mafrish l'chumra.
  if one makes sufganiot- one does not make a bracha on the hafrasha since
it
  is "cooked" and not baked.
 and there is no difference between a commercial baker  and a home baker.
  reuven

 >> From: Sterling Touch <sterlingtouch@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [Avodah] taking off chalah from cake dough
>> To: avodah@lists.aishdas.org
>> Message-ID: <20061107215605.27150.qmail@web53603.mail.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>>
>> Someone just told me that one is required to remove
>> chalah from cake dough as well as bread dough. Has
>> anybody else heard this? Is there a difference
>> between  a commercial baker and home baker?
>> Jeff

Enclosed is from the Sefer Piskei Tshuvos who brings both, the Tos.  
(Avudraham), and Bach that RSBA quoted.
 
Please point to: http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/hamotzee.pdf 
 
Kol  Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
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>From: Sterling Touch <sterlingtouch@yahoo.com>
>Subject: [Avodah] taking off chalah from cake dough
>
>
>Someone just told me that one is required to remove
>chalah from cake dough as well as bread dough. Has
>anybody else heard this? Is there a difference
>between  a commercial baker and home baker?
> Jeff

R' Jeff,

That person is 100 percent correct... if there is a shuir challah.
Something that usually only happens in a commercial setting by cake.

KT,
MSS

Re: magdil/migdol: To those who do not want to get into the 
TT vs. Abudarham problem, I suggest an alternative 
explanation for the change in nussach.

1.  In T. Bavli, Shabbat 115,  Rashi explains that while one 
reads nevi'im on Shabbat one does not read ketuvim on 
Shabbat.

2.  Magdil yeshu'ot is in Tehilim.  Tehilim is in ketuvim. 
One does not read ketuvim on Shabbat.

3.  Migdol yeshu'ot is in Shmuel B'. Shmuel B' is in 
nevi'im. One does read nevi'im on Shabbat.

4.  QED.


k"t,

David 

Rabbanit Boublil asked for the source for the custom for women
to refrain from work on Rosh Chodesh. See Rashi d"h rashei
chadashim and Tosfot d"h v'she'ein ba'hen bitul in Megillah 22b.
Rashi quotes Pirkei (Braita) d'Rebbe Eliezer 45 as the source.

BTW when Rashi mentions "mori ha'zaken", to whom is he referring ??

KT

Josh

On Wed, Nov 01, 2006 at 02:47:05PM -0500, Jonathan Baker wrote:
: As for the last reason, well, isn't that what a lot of drashot are?  We 
: know the halacha is X, now how is that derived from the psukim?
: A lot of this argument is about just that kind of position: it is
: "common knowledge" that bee-honey is permitted only because of confusion
: in the word "dvash" with date-honey, but now that we're trying to look
: for textual evidence, it's not so clear-cut.

Which is my point: The threashold of plausibility for derashos of common
cases shouldn't be considered too high. Rare cases, e.g. the conversion
of a Moavis, are a different story. But when the role is connecting
known to known?

: A major rav & I have been arguing about this offline, based on the 
: references in Shmuel and Shoftim.  As of our last exchange, I argued
: that the two references quoted are 
:   a) late (Shimshon is the last judge before the Eli-Shmuel-Saul-David
:      narrative), about 300-400 years after entry into the Land;

While it's very possible that a word change in meaning over that span,
most words do not. For this to be a question one can't operate from
"it could have changed", but rather prove it did. Otherwise, why assume
the gemara erred in thinking devash was broader in meaning in lashon
hachumash? Just assume that like most words, this one didn't change in
meaning.

:   b) qualified: by Shimshon it specifies dvash from dvorim (why not dvorot?),
:      and with Yonatan:
:      i)  it's again qualified as y'arat dvash, or

In the latter case, not really. The devash isn't modified, the ya'ar
is. But either way, qualification would show that the word is otherwise
ambiguous (which isn't under contention). Qualification isn't always
used to indicate the more rare meaning; particularly if the fact that
it's bee honey is relavent to the story and something the naarator would
therefore stress.

:      ii) it's not even clear that it is dvash dvorim, the commentators are
:          divided whether it's bee honey or some plant syrup or sap (cf.
:          Zev's posts).

Which I addressed by saying it's irrelevant, if the term meant both
honey and a sweat nectar. The fact that EY can be blessed with the word
devash without qualification shows that it doesn't carry negative
connotations (such as including issur).

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

>>Shemu'el misidentified his first nevu'ah for Eili calling his name;
it would seem it too was composed of straight words the way people talk to
eachother.

This was not the same type of nevua if that is even what it was. Nevua 
brings
about a certain degree of bodily loss of control and convulsions since the 
high
level of spirituality brought down is not compatible with the material body.

cb 

Dr. Josh Backon wrote:

> BTW when Rashi mentions "mori ha'zaken", to whom is he referring ??

R Yaakov ben Yakar, who was a talmid of RGMH.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

Reb Jeff "Sterling Touch" wrote:
> Someone just told me that one is required to remove
> chalah from cake dough as well as bread dough. Has
> anybody else heard this? Is there a difference
> between ?a commercial baker and home baker?
> ?Jeff

Correct. This is known as a belilah rakah, and as long as, once baked, it has 
the consistency of bread/cake, which it usually does, one needs to separate 
chalah. However, you'd have to make a gigantic cake to reach the requisite 
shiur in a home setting. (at least 1.2kg of flour).

Arie Folger

I am learning Hilchos Shabbos, and we reached the point where the Mishna 
Berurah discusses making Tea (318:39).  We were wondering if the MB is the 
first place to pasken that tea is kalei habishul.  I would appreciate any 
information on this.

(As I side note, we were also wondering whether the Rema and/or the 
Mechaber drank or knew from tea.  That is, was tea already available in 
their time and place).

Thanks,

Steve Scher


***************************************************************************
Steven J. Scher              sjscher@eiu.edu         Listen to WEFT 90.1FM
Department of Psychology     217-581-7269
Eastern Illinois University
Charleston, IL 61920         "There is nothing in the world that can't be
USA                           improved by a bit of garlic."
                          - Nikki Giovanni, "I Always Think of Meatloaf"

On Sun, November 5, 2006 11:30 pm, R Zvi Lampel wrote:
: RMB:
: Which would include idiomatic or poetic usage, or even rare but accepted
: usage.

: ZL:
: Yes, if there is some reason to abandon the literal meaning, which indeed is
: often, maybe even usually, the case....

: RMB:
: IMHO, this doesn't touch the inyan of whether "yom" must mean day rather than
: era unless we are told.
:
: ZL:
: It follows from the above that "yom" means day, rather than era. That's how
: people talk presently. That's how you must agree it is usually used in the
: rest of Tanach....

A phrase or word could be meant literally, idiomatically or allegorically.
Peshat includes idiom; no one would assume translating "charon apo" as "his
anger" is non-peshat. And so, idiomatic expressions are basically the same as
less common translations.

As RZL wrote above, we assume by default the more common translation, but do
not need a mesorah to fall back on the less common one -- if one is compelled
to do so.

This isn't the same as reinterpretation through allegorization, as this is
simply doubt resolution -- assume the meaning follows rov until you have more
data. (For that matter, from RSRH's stance, words don't carry two meanings,
they carry a fundamental meaning that might differ widely by context. One is
conjecturing about the missing context, not bucking existing mesorah.)

But here we plausibly have that more data! Once you say you allow rare or
idiomatic translations where needed, someone can assert one wherever they need
it.

...
: ZL:
: Any "peshat" meaning is valid, but the definition of valid "peshat" is what's
: at issue. If the most usual usage is not given priority, then you are simply
: disregarding, or disagreeing with, what RSG, Rambam and Sefer Ikarrim are
: trying to tell you, or rendering their thesis meaningless.

Well, as RSG gives it, it's very narrow. The rule would only apply when
deciding between options. If you find one option impossible, then one can
assume the problem is the choice of translation.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

"Someone just told me that one is required to remove
chalah from cake dough as well as bread dough. Has
anybody else heard this? Is there a difference
between  a commercial baker and home baker?"

You need something like 12 cups of flour to separate challah with a bracha, and I think 8-9 cups even without a bracha. That's more than you would generally use baking cake at home.

I think there are also questions about whether the recipe includes water, whether water is the primary liquid, etc - in some cases one would take challah from cake without a bracha.

- Ilana

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