Avodah Mailing List

Volume 20: Number 15

Tue, 17 Oct 2006

• 1. sharing a succah (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: Etrog jam and pesticides (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: What is the source for the minhag of Chasidim to have hakafos on Shmini Atzeres night? (Ken Bloom)
• 4. Re: 12 Step Programs (Moshe Yehuda Gluck)
• 5. duchening (Eli Turkel)
• 6. What is the source for the minhag of Chasidim to have HaKafos on Shmini Atzeres night? (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Hisbonenus (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)

A question that came up this past succot.

Someone was eating in a public succah with his wife.
As the succah was crowded someone else came and asked the
wife to leave so that he could eat in the succah as a woman is
not required to eat in a succah.

Is there any requirement for the woman to leave eating in the
public succah with her husband so that another man can use
her place?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Moshe Feldman wrote:

> However, some Poskim are lenient, explaining that our Gemara
> referred to esrogim that were subject to direct Torah prohibitions,
> such as orlah. An impure and therefore dangerous esrog is not
> intrinsically forbidden. It is just subject to external conditions
> that render it unfit to be eaten. Therefore the esrog is kosher for
> use (Marcheshes I, 20).
>
> However, some Acharonim object to this reasoning. They insist that
> since practically speaking the esrog may not be eaten, it is not fit
> for the mitzva. The technical reasons for why it may not be eaten
> are irrelevant (Teshuvos Binyan Olam O.C. 33).

Australia has very strict quarantine regulations, and it's very
difficult to import fresh fruit.  For many years a special exemption
was granted for the importation of etrogim; the fruit was released
from quarantine only until after yomtov, and then had to be returned
to the authorities to be destroyed.  (The precise details change from
time to time, and I don't know what the situation is now.  One year
it was discovered that the old exemption was no longer valid and a
new one had to be granted, which took a bit of shtadlanut; the
etrogim were finally released only a few days before yomtov.)

R Osher Abramson AH, the ABD of Sydney, wrote to the LR asking
whether this made the etrogim passul, since they could not be eaten.
The LR's response is published in various places; he wrote that they
are still intrinsically ra'uy la'achila, there is neither a physical
problem nor a halacha that they can't be eaten, and there isn't even
a dina demalchuta making their consumption illegal, there's merely an
obligation to do something else with them, which won't be possible
if they have been eaten.  So it's no different than an etrog received
as a matana al menat lehachazir, which one also may not eat, because
then one would not be able to return it.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Tuesday 17 October 2006 01:02, Marty Bluke wrote:
> Subject: What is the source for the minhag of Chasidim to have
> hakafos on Shmini Atzeres night? 
>
> The one source that I found is in the siddur of the Baal Hatanya
> where he quotes it as a minhag vasikin. Anyone know of any other
> sources/reasons?

See Ben Ish Chai Parshat Vetzot HaBeracha for the first year, section 
17. He states this practice as the halacha without giving any earlier 
source or reason. He also mentions and endorses the minhag of the Ari 
Z"L to do hakafot leil isru chag as well.

See also Kaf HaHayyim (of R. Hayyim Sofer) 699:33. This is probably also 
covered in Chazon Ovadia (ROY) and Torat HaMoadim (his son, RDY) with 
extensive footnotes, but I do not have these sources to check.

--Ken Bloom

-- 
Ken Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/
I've added a signing subkey to my GPG key. Please update your keyring.
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> On Thu, October 12, 2006 1:06 am, R Moshe Yehuda Gluck wrote:
> :                              I understand M'sayin Oso as excluding a
> complete
> : spiritual makeover with no effort on the supplicant's part (as I think
> you
> : do) in the context of your standard Bah L'taher, who is taking concrete
> : steps to Teshuvah and needs some assistance. I think that the Maharsha,
> when
> : he applies this Chazal to someone who isn't doing anything other than
> : Davening to Hashem to make him return in Teshuvah, does not mean to
> limit
> : this person to getting only assistance....
R'MB: 
> Doesn't this require ignoring the literal meaning of the word "mesayin"?
> The
> Aramaic beseyata diShmaya is a loose translation of be'ezras Hashem.
> Mesayei'a
> lidevar aveirah doesn't do the aveirah for the other person. The word
> means
> help; how can the Maharsha use the word and be discussing "doing for"
> rather
> than assisting?

The Maharsha is quoting the word "M'sayin" from a Chazal that is referring
to a situation where one needs ASSISTANCE to do Teshuva, but the Maharsha is
(in this sugya) talking about someone who needs MORE than assistance - in
fact he is asking Hashem to return him in Teshuva. Compare to the third
situation that the Maharsha is even more bothered by - that of someone
Davening that SOMEONE ELSE should return in Teshuva. (BTW, the Maharsha
doesn't answer that - he just says V'yesh L'yasheiv. If anyone would care
to, I'd appreciate it.)

 
<SNIP>
R'MB:
> Again, I'm viewing the causality in the reverse. Ha'adam nif'al lefi
> pe'ulosav, and the sechar/onesh is a consequence of who he is ba'asher hu
> sham. Thus, it's not a question of being rewarded for a given action, but
> the
> resulting person who was the impact of the chain of mitzavos by the nature
> of
> being better will consequently be capable of receiving more of His Tov.
<SNIP> 
> The question is based on an accounting-payoff mentality. But once looks at
> sechar in terms of the payoff of spiritual fitness, your question wouldn't
> arise. Hashem tells you that doing these 613 things makes you fit, and
> thus
> more able to receive tov. Which is why the Zohar calls them the 613 itin.

I hear, and ZGG, indeed! But, what are "itin"?

KT,
MYG

I always wondered about this. RYBS holds that for chazaras hashatz you
should stand with your feet together because chazaras hashatz is the tefilla
of the tzibur. If so how can the cohanim and leviim go to wash their hands?
How can the cohanim go up to duchen? RYBS also held that on Rosh Hashan you
have to hear every word of the shatz to be yotze with the tekios on the
seder haberachos, again how does this fit in with going to wash the hands of
the cohanim (RYBS was a Levi as well)?>>

It is known that RYBS in later life did not go out to wash the cohen's hands
(I heard from an elder Cohen that RYBS did wash his hands many years ago)
RHS speculates that the reason is that RYBS felt that a talmid chacham
should
not wash the hands of a Cohen am ha-aretz. I always felt that the reason was
that he did not wish to leave the shul during chazarat hashatz.
Since the cohen has a mitzva to bless the people that obviously overweighs
any
chumrah of standing and listening. There is no similar mitzva from the Torah
on the levi

-- 
Eli Turkel
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At 04:36 PM 10/17/2006, you wrote:
>Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:02:15 +0200
>From: "Marty Bluke" <marty.bluke@gmail.com>
>Subject: [Avodah] What is the source for the minhag of Chasidim to
>         have    hakafos on Shmini Atzeres night?
>To: avodah@aishdas.org
>Message-ID:
>         <d20f942b0610162302l2c9ff9e9yf852598fd6296663@mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>The one source that I found is in the siddur of the Baal Hatanya where he
>quotes it as a minhag vasikin. Anyone know of any other sources/reasons?


Have a look at Chapter 30 of R. A. Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas 
Torah (page 267). There you will see that due to a mistake in 
transcription, people were under the impression that the ARI danced 
in front of the Sifrei Torah on Shmini Atzeres night. However, he 
actually danced on Motzoei SA after Maariv.

It seems to me that this error in transcription is the "basis" for 
what Chassidim do.

BTW, for what it is worth, in most places in Germany there were no 
HaKafos on Simchas Torah at night, only during the day. Indeed, I was 
told that this was what was done in the German (Glen Ave and its 
downtown predecessor) shul in Baltimore until Rav S. Schwab became 
the rov of the shul and instituted HaKafos on ST at night. I was also 
told that there were no HaKafos at night in KAJ before Rav Schwab 
came to Washington Heights.  He also instituted them at night on ST in KAJ.


Yitzchok Levine 
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What jarred me recently in my current perusal of Nefesh HaChaim is how 
much he is in sync with the Besht on tefillah. To the best of my 
recollection, R' Aryeh Kaplan leaves one with the impression that this 
is a Chassidishe thing. But its not:


??? ??? ????? - ??? ? - ??? ??

 

????? ?????? ?? ??. ??? ??? ???? ????? ???"? ?????? ?' ????? ???? ???? 
?????? ?"?. ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? 
?????? ????? ????. ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????. ??? ???? ???? 
?? ??. ?? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????' ???????? ???????? ?"? ????? 
???????. ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????"?. ??? ????? ????? 
????? ?????? ??????. ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ????? 
???? ???"? ????? ?????. ???? ?"? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????. 
??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???. ????? ?????? ????? 
???? ????? ?????? ????? ?'. ??????? ?? ?? ??????? ??????? ????????. 
????? ???? ??????. ????? ??? ???????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? 
?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?????. ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?"? ?? ??? 
??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ???. ??????? ????? 
????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??' ??"? ??????? ??"?. ??? ?? ??? ????? 
?????? ??????. ???? ???"? (????? ?' ?"? ????? ????? ?"?) ????? ?? ???? 
????? ?? ????? ?"? ??' ?? ???? ??'. ???"? ????? ???"? ?"? ???? ????? 
?"?. ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?"? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??' ??? ????? 
????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???????. ?? ??? ??"? ????? 
??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ???????. ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?' 
?? ???? ?????? ??"?. ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???:


??? ????? ?????? ?????. ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??????. ????? ?? 
?? ??????? ???? ????? ????????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? 
????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????. ???"? ??"? ???? ????? ????? ????? 
??????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? 
?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????' ??????. ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? 
???????? ???? ???. ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? 
??????? ???? ?????? ???????. ??? ??? ????? ????? ???. ????? ?? ???? 
??????? ?????. ???? ????? ?????:


????:

???? ????? ????? ??"? ????? ????? ??? ????. ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? 
?????? ???? ??? ?"? ???? ????? ????' ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????. ??"? 
????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ????. ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? 
???? ?????' ?????? ?????. ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? 
????? ??? ??????. ?? ?? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?"?. ??? ??? ???? ??? 
?????? ???"? ???? ?????? ???? ??????' ????? ?? ???' ????? ?? ?????? ???:



Micha Berger wrote:

> [I see the bottom of my email didn't make it through the first time.
> Take II.   -mi]
>
> The use of visual imagery used to be a central part of many derakhim in
> Yahadus. Such meditation was one of the core elements of Chassidus. In
> Novarhadok, it was used to shape middos. An emotional experience is
> more powerful at changing the self than words; and thus generating one
> internally is a useful skill.
>
>  From RYGB's talk on "shevisi Hashem..." it seems evident that many (most?)
> understood this in terms of actually visualizing the four letters before
> you "tamid".
>
> As for today, it's socially stigmatized in the frum world as as "weird"
> and not practiced much AFAIK. Breslov perhaps.
>
> Here's one that I find helps my kavanah with berakhos, when the NhC's
> kavanah is in tune with my current mood. (As opposed to a Hirschian,
> Soloveitchikian, or some other peshat.)
>
> Picture light coming from infinitely far off. While RYGB cited someone
> (forgot who) who allowed one to be someich on the Ra'avad that one may
> imagine the Source of the light, I don't. It's infinitely far off --
> it doesn't enter the mental picture. This light is the Berekhah as
> the Cause of my existence. It is personal, the beam is entering me in
> particular. Thus I can say "Barukh atah H'", taking sheim havayah as
> the causative conjugation of "hayah". Take some time to fully develop
> the picture. To feel the "chiyus" coming in with this shefa.
>
> Once there, then realize that in truth, the light does fill -- and in
> fact *is* -- everything around you as well. E-lokeinu, Melekh ha'Olam.
>
> In the case of birkhas avos, the one berakhah I am most likely to
> say at a pace slow enough to have such kavanos (thanks to R' Aryeh
> Kaplan), the progression of the berakhah is from that personal light,
> to the light that fills all ("E-lokeinu") to the realization that the
> light that fills all fills each item personally. And that a person must
> aspire to the madreiga where he doesn't live his life by natural law,
> having G-d as E-lokeinu, but by moral law -- E-lokei avoseinu.
>
> How does one do that? By blending the archetypes of Avraham, Yitzchaq
> and Ya'aqov...
>
> Another, more mussar-dik example.
>
> Picture a drop of water. You're out in nature, and water drips over a
> precipice. It falls onto a rock. Don't just learn about Rabbi Akiva's
> experience, spend time imagining the scene exactly. Try not to let any
> extraneous thoughts enter, but if they do -- don't actively fight them
> or get frustrated, just return to the image. Then, once you can smell
> the fresh mountain spring water and feel that rock realize -- you're
> the rock, and the water -- Torah. It can make an emotional impression.
> Enough impressions, and your emotional, preconscious, relationship to
> Torah is changed. And what could be more valuable than being more able
> to be shaped by the Torah one learns?
>
> At the most recent Shabbaton, RYGB discussed shitos that understand
> "shevisi Hashem..." in terms of visualizing the letters of the sheim
> havayah or other sheimos.
>
> Does anyone have first-hand experience in this area that they would like
> to share? Anyone have knowledge of the mesorah on this subject? Want
> to learn?
>
> Tir'u beTov!
> -mi
>
>   
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