Avodah Mailing List

Volume 20: Number 13

Mon, 16 Oct 2006

• 1. YK Selichos [Shacharis, Musaf, Minchah]? (SBA)
• 2. Re: YK Selichos [Shacharis, Musaf, Minchah]? (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Fwd: yizkor (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Bereshis "From A to Z" (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Chazarat Hashatz (Yisrael Medad)
• 6. Papofeuer (SBA)
• 7. Conflict between Malachai and Devorim (rabbi z)
• 8. Hoshana Rabbah (SBA)
• 9. Etrog jam and pesticides (Chana Luntz)
• 10. Re: Chazarat Hashatz (Mike Miller)
• 11. Re: YK Selichos [Shacharis, Musaf, Minchah]? (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Schooling for women (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: 12 Step Programs (Micha Berger)
• 14. ALL BEGINNINGS ARE DIFFICULT (Cantor Wolberg)

From: Subject: To: Message-ID: <c36.34fcd46.3260288f@aol.com>
I don't know if this subject been brought up before, first of all, why even
in the "frumest" shuls are Selichos not recited during Shacharis, Musaf, and
Mincha, and second of all, why are they not printed in most Machzorim?
 According to Rabbiner Benjomin S. Homburger Shlitoh of the Mochon Moreshes
Ashkenaz, one of the iqorim of YK is the recitation of Selichos. He said 
it's
not so simple that one should daven in a shul which does not recite them.
>>

What selichos are we talking about here?

SBA 

<I don't know if this subject been brought up before, first of all, why
even

<in the "frumest" shuls are Selichos not recited during Shacharis, Musaf, and
<Mincha, and second of all, why are they not printed in most Machzorim?

The answer that I heard from RHS is that there were so many different
variations of which selichos were said that the printers couldn't
decide which to print so instead they printed something like here we
say selichos, and then over time even that was erased from the
machzorim.

In YU they say selichos at all 3 tefilos. If you look in the Rav's
machzor you will see that he also said selichos at all the tefilos as
well as saying the 13 midos more times at neila then what we have
printed in the Machzorim.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20061015/bfc27308/attachment.htm

> Can one Daven for a dead person?

Why not?  Don't we do so all the time, with yizkor, av harachamim,
malei, etc, as well as indirectly with kaddish? >>

BTW R. Soloveitchik translates yizkor as atone (kaper) not as
remember and brings the famous statement that yom kippurim is in
the plural since it is for the living and the dead. Yizkor began on YK
and only later spread to the other regalim.

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20061014/c6e9cc2f/attachment.html

The  word ?Bereshis ? In the beginning? (in addition to having both aleph and tav, the first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet), can be rearranged to comprise the letters ?yarei Shabbos,?  ?awe of Shabbos?. Thus in the very first word of the Torah is already planted the seed of Shabbos which is a commemoration of creation (zikaron l'ma'aseh v'reishis). One of the most significant and major themes of Shabbos is recognizing God as Creator: B'reishis?"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".
 

Shabbos has also been closely related to the idea of teshuva (repentance, the mitzva of correcting past mistakes). The same three letters of ?Shabbos? are also those of ?tashev?, the root of teshuva. Shabbos is the celebration of the remembrance of Creation, a return to the perfect state, a return to the Source. Teshuva is a return to the pure state, the state which existed before sin caused its damage. And through Teshuva (repentance?cleaning up our act), one can make Shabbos and a new "beginning."



Another very interesting observation:  All the days of Creation are referred to as  "A second day," (Yom Sheni); A third day, (Yom Shelishi) and so on, except for the sixth day, which is called "Yom HA'Shishi" ? THE sixth day." Rashi comments that this alludes to the fact that the Torah would be given on the sixth day (of the month of Sivan) many centuries later. 

 

I would say that HAshishi, THE sixth day is used to distinguish the most important creation of all ? THE man.



May our Bereishis always contain 'yarei Shabbos,?  ?awe of Shabbos? and "teshuva", a return to the pure state that we had at the Beginning.




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20061015/a092d73a/attachment-0001.htm

>I am only bringing some evidence that
>*perhaps* it is not *as* important to hear chazaras hashatz as it
>might seem at first glance.
>Akiva Miller

I would venture a suggestion that only 10 people need pay attention.
The Kohanim, if not in the 10, can do whatever they have to for their
Duchening.
Two separate issues, no?
-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20061016/a994bdb9/attachment.html

From: "Yisrael Medad" <yisrael.medad@gmail.com>
Subject: [Avodah] Chazarat Hashatz
From the sefer Ishay Yisraelby Avraham Yehoshua Papofeuer (ok:
pey-pey-vav-yud-fey-reish):
----



[That's the problem with using modern Hebrew for Yiddish or 
German names (and words).

In good-old-fashioned Yiddish it would have been spelled:
(Pei), Fei, Vov, Yud, Fei, Ayin, Reish and not created
any misunderstandings. 

SBA

If you look at the Malbim on Malachi he answers this question very well.
  You can even see the Malbim in some Mikraos Gedolos Chumashim on that Haftorah
   
  Zvi Lampel wrote, quoting R Saadia Gaon: 

>> In the conventional/primary sense, Hashem's saying that when 
>> giving maaser "you shall test me through this" (Devarim 6:16) 
>> contradicts the pesukim prohibiting testing Hashem. 
>> "Uvchanuni na bazot" is not Devarim 6:16, it's Malachi 3:10. 
>> Devarim 6:16 is "lo tenasun et Hashem".
 
IZvi Lampel



 		
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20061016/7a87949b/attachment.htm

From: "Cantor Wolberg" <>
Someone once said that in parts of pre-war Eastern Europe Hoshana Rabbah was 
known as Yom Kippur Katan. Normally, Yom Kippur Katan refers to the day 
before Rosh Chodesh as this is likened to a beginning and therefore, more of 
an opportunity to do teshuva. It does make perfect sense that Hosahana 
Rabbah would be understood in this way since it resembles a minor Yom Kippur 
in some ways.
>>

The minhag of most Oberlender is to wear the Kittel to Shul. Psuka dezimra 
is said as on RH/YK.
Amongst certain chassidim HR is a BIG deal. In Satmar the davvening goes 
almost until sunset with the rebbe blowing shofar and giving short hisorerus 
droshos between the Hoshanos. I was there once in the 60s and it was 
definitily a mini YK.

SBA 

RGW writes 0n Areivim:

> I used to make Etrog jam after Sukkot, until an Etrog dealer 
> cautioned me against it, telling me that to keep the fruit in 
> good condition, the etrog orchards are constantly sprayed 
> with strong pesticides, which wind up inside the flesh of the 
> fruit.  He said they are grown for religious use, not for 
> eating, so they don't treat them like they would edible fruit.
> 
> Is there someone on list who is familiar with how etrogim are 
> treated as they are grown, the pesticides used, and whether 
> they are safe to eat?
> 

And if not why is it valid for use in the arba minim?  I thought that
everybody held that one of the criteria for use of an esrog was that it
must have a heter achila (see Sukkah 35a) due to the requirement of
l'chem (see eg Rashi there)?  And yet I have never heard of anybody
enquiring into the pesticide status of an esrog to determine its
kashrus.  Why not?


> Gil Winokur

Regards

Chana

On 10/16/06, Yisrael Medad <yisrael.medad@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would venture a suggestion that only 10 people need pay attention. [to chazaras hashatz]

Not to nickpick, but we only need nine to avoid "karov l'bracha
l'vatalah" (in the words of the Sh"A). The Sh"Tz counts as one.

-- Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh

On Thu, October 12, 2006 7:23 pm, RallisW@aol.com wrote:
: I don't know if this subject been brought up before, first of all, why even
: in the "frumest" shuls are Selichos not recited during Shacharis, Musaf, and
: Mincha, and second of all, why are they not printed in most Machzorim?

They aren't printed because there were so many variants, and they stopped
being said because they weren't printed. At least, that was RYBS's explanation
given in a "yarchei kalah" shiur in Boston in the early 80s. I do not recall
which year, I went to more than one. (Which explains why someone beat me to
it, but with an attribution of RHS. I am posting to testify to RHS's probable
source.)

But yes, it's very wrong, as selichos were historically and are supposed to be
the centerpiece of YK. There are three shuls in Passaic, all taught by
talmidim of RYBS, who restored saying selichos in each tefillah.

Tir'u beTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Wed, October 11, 2006 9:50 pm, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: The difference was in the manner or style of the learning. Men (who
: seem to be typified as outgoing) learn in a public setting - a shiur,
: a classroom, etc. Women (who seem to be typified as inward) learn one-
: on-one. This setup (in my understanding) lasted for many thousands of
: years, until women stopped being the homebodies that they had been
: previously, and they needed the more public sort of schooling to
: compete with the other influences that they began to encounter.

On inward vs outward, I compared RSRH's approach with RASoloveitchik's in the
vol 4 thread on "kol kevudah". See <http://tinyurl.com/y54a2a> and surrounding
subject lines from the index.

But I don't see how this distinction is relevent. The mishnah reads "kol
hamelameid bito Torah", which doesn't sound like its limiting itself to a
public setting; quite the reverse.

Tir'u beTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Thu, October 12, 2006 1:06 am, R Moshe Yehuda Gluck wrote:
:                              I understand M'sayin Oso as excluding a complete
: spiritual makeover with no effort on the supplicant's part (as I think you
: do) in the context of your standard Bah L'taher, who is taking concrete
: steps to Teshuvah and needs some assistance. I think that the Maharsha, when
: he applies this Chazal to someone who isn't doing anything other than
: Davening to Hashem to make him return in Teshuvah, does not mean to limit
: this person to getting only assistance....

Doesn't this require ignoring the literal meaning of the word "mesayin"? The
Aramaic beseyata diShmaya is a loose translation of be'ezras Hashem. Mesayei'a
lidevar aveirah doesn't do the aveirah for the other person. The word means
help; how can the Maharsha use the word and be discussing "doing for" rather
than assisting?

:> (Although really lehefech: Isn't the point of shemiras hamitzvos to move
:> the nequdah which in and of itself is the cause of sechar?)

: This reminds me of a Kash'ye on the Mishna of Mitzvah Goreres Mitzvah. If
: so, then one who does one mitzvah shouldn't get s'cher for the second, and
: the reverse by Aveiros. Also, why doesn't this Mishna take away from our
: Bechirah? The answer I remember getting is that someone said that Ein Hachi
: Nami, everything goes back to the firast mitzvah and Aveirah that one does.
: I remember being a bit dissatisfied, but it was said (IIRC) in the name of a
: Rishon. Any thoughts?

Again, I'm viewing the causality in the reverse. Ha'adam nif'al lefi
pe'ulosav, and the sechar/onesh is a consequence of who he is ba'asher hu
sham. Thus, it's not a question of being rewarded for a given action, but the
resulting person who was the impact of the chain of mitzavos by the nature of
being better will consequently be capable of receiving more of His Tov.

The statement is therefore just pointing out a natural feedback loop: doing a
mitzvah once moves the bechirah point, thereby making it easier to do a
mitzvah again. And r"l on the other side too.

The question is based on an accounting-payoff mentality. But once looks at
sechar in terms of the payoff of spiritual fitness, your question wouldn't
arise. Hashem tells you that doing these 613 things makes you fit, and thus
more able to receive tov. Which is why the Zohar calls them the 613 itin.

The causality isn't that there are mitzvos, and therefore one gets sechar for
doing them, but it's a mitzvah because HQBH wants us to know how to get more
of His Tov.

Tir'u beTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

The following is a nice vort I found from "The Weekly Aliyot"

Our sages tell us that you have to dig in the Torah and you will find truth. 
As an example, the final letters of the first three words of the Torah are 
the mixed up letters of the word Emes (True). Dig a little deeper, and the 
truth will be clearer: The final letters of the second through fourth words 
spells Emes in order.

To that I would add: "All beginnings are difficult." (Mekhilta Yitro, 
"Bachodesh" 2)
Once you are able to get past the beginning in the search for truth, the 
truth becomes clearer.

Also, it's not until you see the whole word that you realize in the end, the 
truth has to emerge. If, God forbid, it doesn't emerge, then there will be 
tohu vavohu (desolation and waste) and v'choshech al p'nei t'hom; there'll 
be darkness to the depths of our souls.

You might note that "choshech" is a palindrome in Hebrew (chof, shin, chof). 
"Darkness" is darkness, no matter which way you spell it. 



------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 3, Issue 13
*************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."