Avodah Mailing List

Volume 20: Number 4

Thu, 05 Oct 2006

• 1. Re: Kiddush Levanah on Motzoei Yom Kippur (Harry Maryles)
• 2. Re: (long!) Find Yourself a Rabbi and Treat Every Rabbi WithRespect - A possible introduction and guide to Avodah/Areivim (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: 12 Step Programs (Mike Miller)
• 4. Re: Mussaf during Mincha time (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Kiddush Levanah on Motzoei Yom Kippur (Mike Miller)
• 6. Late Davening (Yisrael Medad)
• 7. Re: Kiddush Levanah on Motzoei Yom Kippur (Zev Sero)
• 8. Agag (SBA)
• 9. throngs on Yom Kippur (SBA)
• 10. Re: Agag (T613K@aol.com)
• 11. Re: 12 Step Programs (T613K@aol.com)
• 12. Re: Rav Keller's JO article on evolution (Zvi Lampel)
• 13. Chazarat hashatz (Joel Rich)
• 14. Re: Kiddush Levanah on Motzoei Yom Kippur (saul mashbaum)
• 15. Hisbonenus (Micha Berger)

--- Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Levine@stevens.edu> wrote:

> Many have the custom of making Kiddush Levanah on Motzoei Yom
> Kippur 
> right after Maariv. However, this means that the wives of the men 
> making Kiddush Levanah have to wait longer before they can break 
> their fast, because they have to wait for their husbands to return 
> home and make Havdalah before they can eat. Is it really proper to 
> perform this mitzvah at the "expense" of others who may well be 
> feeling weak from fasting?

This practice is Halachicly incorrect. One is supposed to eat before
making Kiddush Levana. It is only out of expedience that many shuls
do so. In my son's Shul in Ramat Bet Shemesh everyone goes home to
make Havdlaha and eat immediately after the Maariv and return later
at a pre-determiend time to do Kiddush Levanah. 

HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

Answer: You have asked a very painful question. First of all, as far as
the Sanhedrin, our master Rabbi Kook already wrote that for a Sanhedrin
you need world-class scholars on a level that does not exist today
(Igarot HaRe'iyah I:341).
-----------------------------
Me- doesn't the gemara in rosh hashana 25b make the opposite point
(yiftach bdoro) on exactly this point?
-----------------------------



Rav Tzvi Shechter wrote that the Talmud explains (Yevamot 14) that when
a sage differs with his contemporaries, even when he is greatly
outnumbered, he and his disciples must continue rendering decisions and
conducting themselves in according with his view. The rule that we
follow the majority (Exodus 23:2) applies to the rest of the people who
are not his students. He also wrote that every Torah scholar who becomes
a halachic authority must always express his own view, however he has
come to understand the truth of the law (Nefesh HaRav 60-62).

Rav Shechter (Nefesh HaRav, page 62) quotes from the Vilna Gaon (as it
appeared in Rav Chaim Volozhin's sefer "Chut HaMeshulash" at the end of
Siman 9) that if a rabbi comes to a conclusion that goes against the
Shulchan Aruch, and rules according to the Shulchan Aruch, he violates,
"Do not give anyone special consideration when rendering judgment"
(Deuteronomy 1:17)
----------------------------------------
Me-I assume he was referring to Rabbi Hershel(Tzvi) SchAchter

GT
Joel Rich
-----------------------------------------
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

On 10/5/06, Moshe Yehuda Gluck <mgluck@gmail.com> wrote:
> R' MB:
> > Here's a version anotated with my concerns:
> > > 1.   We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives
> > had
> > become unmanageable
>
> This one always bothered me. And, as a founder of aishdas.org, I'm not sure
> why it doesn't bother you. Don't we believe that a person can master his
> actions? And, if it's past our nekudas habechirah, then aren't we not
> responsible?

I think that AA says that a person can master his action, but that in
the past, he'd failed to do so. Notice that it says "were powerless."

> > > 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact
> > nature
> > of our wrongs
> >
> > And who would think I would complain about a cheshbon hanefesh or vidui?
>
> Vidui to Hashem and ourselves is A-OK. But vidui to another human being is
> not - on an Avierah not publicly known - ayin OC 607:2 and the MB there.

Then at least limit it to known aveiros. I suppose there are two ways
to read AA's idea of another person: either as a substitute for a
priest, or, more likely IMHO, as a way to make sure the person
actually does it, and does so seriously. After all, we can lie to
ourselves easily, and we can even (try) to lie to Hashem, but lying to
another person can be much harder. (I'm not, C"V, saying that one can
get away with lying to Hashem, but rather that there's usually no
immediate feedback / warning. When one lies to another person, they
listener can challenege them right on the spot).

-- Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh

ephraim.stulberg@utoronto.ca wrote:

> In shul this Yom Kippur, Mussaf did not begin until after the  
> acceptable period for davening Mincha had commenced, i.e. after 2pm in  
> Toronto. The Bavli (B'rachos 28a) rules that in such a case, Mincha  
> comes first.

That only applies beyachid.  A tzibbur always davens musaf first,
even if it's already time for mincha ketana, so as not to confuse people.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On 10/5/06, Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com> wrote:
> One is supposed to eat before making Kiddush Levana.

On Tisha B'Av, we say that one should break their fast to say KL
b'simcha. Is the fasting of YK considered physically depressing, and
therefore one should eat, or do we perhaps consider a "positive" fast
such as YK as not as depressing as a "negative" fast like 9 Av?

-- Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh

"The Tur (OC268) writes that his father, the Rosh, used to say Mussaf
alone in its proper time rather than wait for a dawdling congregation."

This must be the only time a Rav was beaten out by his congregation.


-- 
Yisrael Medad
Shiloh
Mobile Post Efraim 44830
Israel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20061005/dbbb9970/attachment-0001.html

Shmuel Zajac wrote:

>> Surely she is just as hungry as he is, and her staying for maariv or
>> going home is a matter for mutual agreement.  And why must he have
>> warm food to break his fast?  Can't he (actually they) first have cold
>> drinks while the food is warming up?  In any case, why is his having
>> to wait a few minutes longer for hot food (though no longer than she
>> waits) more important than whatever hanaah she gets from staying for
>> maariv (and walking home with him instead of alone)?  What is she,
>> his maid?

> You left out one question that fits right in - Why can't he put the 
> food on the fire?

That will take just as long as her doing it, and there's no question
that he should stay for maariv.  The question was why she should stay,
since she has no chiyyuv to daven maariv at all, let alone betzibur.
If she goes home alone before maariv, they can both get their hot food
earlier, which does seem more efficient; I just don't see why such
efficiency is so important that it should override her revealed
preference to stay for maariv.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

From: "Sober Family" <>
I definitely recall hearing that Agag - in the brief interval after Shaul 
spared him and before Shmuel killed him - found a shifcha through whom he 
was able to continue his line of descent. But I can't find the source for 
this! Does anyone know the source?
>>

I haven't found a source - yet.
But it is mentioned in the "Asher heini" we say after the megilla:
"...velo zochar rachmei Shaul, ki bechemlosoy al Agag nolad oyev..."

SBA 

David Riceman wrote:
: 1.  We read about the throngs of people watching what happened on Yom 
Kippur
: in the Beis HaMikdah, yet Yom Kippur is not a regel.  Why come if there's 
no
: mitzva?
>>

Maybe these throngs were all Yerushalmiim?

SBA 

 
 

R'n Ilana Sober writes:
>>I definitely recall hearing that Agag - in the brief interval after  Shaul 
spared him and before Shmuel killed him - found a shifcha through whom he  was 
able to continue his line of descent. But I can't find the source for this!  
Does anyone know the source?<<




.
Look at meforshim on Megillas Esther - Haman being descendant of  Agag.



--Toby  Katz
=============
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20061005/8623d8c3/attachment-0001.htm

 
 
RMB: >> 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being  the 
>>exact nature of our wrongs
>
>And who would think I  would complain about a cheshbon hanefesh or  
>vidui?

RDI:
>>Although I would point out that confession to another person is  not 
the core Torah concept of vidui.<<

.
It is if you are admitting your wrongdoing to the person who was injured  by 
your behavior.   It is part of obtaining mechilla and doing  teshuva.





--Toby  Katz
=============
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20061005/a5581675/attachment-0001.html

Tue, 3 Oct 2006 from: ""David Riceman"" <driceman@worldnet.att.net> 

> From: ""Zvi Lampel"" <hlampel@thejnet.com> (citing Sefer HaIkkarim) 

> ""When witnesses testify, we do not say, let's tweak the time or interpret 
> the testimony to keep the witnesses innocent of perjury. To illustrate: 
> let's say they testified that Reuven killed Shimon on the first day of the 
> week, and then their testimony is proved false. We do not say, let's 
> interpret their testimony to prevent them from being false witnesses. 
> Let's say that by ""on the first day of the 'week' "" they meant on the 
> first of the seven-year sabbatical cycle (the ""week"" of years). Or let's 
> say that by ""he killed him"" they meant he refused to give him alms, which 
> would support him; or they meant he did not teach him the Torah, [which 
> is, after all,] the true source of life in the World to Come. We do not 
> say any of this because a testimony must be understood naturally, and if 
> witnesses are shown to have given false testimony, they must be put to 
> death, and we do not interpret their words in ways to save them...""

>This may be tangential to your main point, but how do you harmonize this 
with Pesahim 11b ""Zeh yodeia b'ibburo shel hodesh v'zeh eino yodeia""? See 
the whole sugya there (which extends to 12b).< 

Y'yashar kochacha on so quickly connecting the two sources. They harmonize beautifully. The sugya in Pesachim is dealing with accepting testimony that is possibly imprecise, given the factor of innocent human error, attempting to understand what the witness really means. This contrasts with the opposite idea in Rav Yosef Albo's piece: There, precision is not the issue, but the normal meaning of words. In such cases, we do not reinterpret someone's testimony to mean something we really know is different from what he really meant.

Zvi Lampel 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20061005/13c2f32b/attachment-0001.htm

Is anyone aware of any written sources that allow learning during chazarat hashatz?Gtjoel rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

RMBerger wrote about Kiddush Levana for Tishrei

>Mitzvah haba leyadkha al tachmitzenah is invoked as a chiyuv. I do not understand why we aren't all zerizim maqdimim.


This is a classic question: if there is a hiddur in doing something later, does that override "Mitzvah haba leyadkha al tachmitzenah " ? The common case is KL motzaei Shabbat, which is preferable to a weekday night since one is more nicely dressed, in a good mood because of the joy of the Shabbat, and KL can usually be done b'rov am, which are hiddurim for KL. The common practice is to wait until motzaei Shababt, even though one thus is "machmitz" the mitzva which could have been done earlier. The same principle applies to KL motzaei YK, which some hold is the most mehudar time to say it; this may override MHBAT. I'll provide some sources soon, b"n, but this is the idea. The same question applies to other mitzvot as well.

Saul Mashbaum 

The use of visual imagery used to be a central part of many derakhim in
Yahadus. Such meditation was one of the core elements of Chassidus. In
Novarhadok, it was used to shape middos. An emotional experience is more
powerful at changing the self than words; and thus generating one internally
is a useful skill.

From RYGB's talk on "shevisi Hashem..." it seems evident that many (most?)
understood this in terms of actually visualizing the four letters before you
"tamid".

As for today, it's socially stigmatized as "weird" and not much practiced
AFAIK in the frum world. Breslov perhaps.

Here's one that I find helps my kavanah with berakhos, when the NhC's kavanah
is in tune with my current mood. (As opposed to a Hirschian, Soloveitchikian,
or some other peshat.)

Picture light coming from infinitely far off. While RYGB cited someone (forgot
who) who allowed one to be someich on the Ra'avad that one may imagine the
Source of the light, I don't. It's infinitely far off -- it doesn't enter the
mental picture. This light is the Berekhah as the Cause of my existence. It is
personal, the beam is entering me in particular. Thus I can say "Barukh atah
H'", taking sheim havayah as the causative conjugation of "hayah". Take some
time to fully develop the picture. To feel the "chiyus" coming in with this
shefa.

Once there, then realize that in truth, the light does fill -- and in fact
*is* -- everything around you as well. E-lokeinu, Melekh ha'Olam.

In the case of birkhas avos, the one berakhah I am most likely to say at a
pace slow enough to have such kavanos (thanks to R' Aryeh Kaplan), the
progression of the berakhah is from that personal light, to the light that
fills all ("E-lokeinu") to the realization that the light that fills all fills
each item personally. And that a person must aspire to the madreiga where he
doesn't live his life by natural law, having G-d as E-lokeinu, but by moral
law -- E-lokei avoseinu.

How does one do that? By blending the archetypes of Avraham, Yitzchaq and
Ya'aqov...

Another, more mussar-dik example.

Picture a drop of water. You're out in nature, and water drips over a
precipice. It falls onto a rock. Don't just learn about Rabbi Akiva's
experience, spend time imagining the scene exactly. Try not to let any
extraneous thoughts enter, but if they do -- don't actively fight them or get%



------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 3, Issue 4
************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."