Avodah Mailing List

Volume 19: Number 2

Mon, 04 Sep 2006

• 1. Re: Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell (Chana Luntz)
• 2. Safek Mamzer (Harry Weiss)
• 3. Re: Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell (hankman)
• 4. KI TAVO (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell (Chana Luntz)
• 6. Re: Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell (hankman)
• 7. "kula" for gerim of patrilineal descent? (Miryam T Brand)

 I wrote:
> > I am by no means a medical type, but I have certainly been told that

> > fasting in late pregnancy can bring on labor (supposedly 
> the delivery rate at frum hospitals goes up around Yom Kippur).
> >
> CM responds:
> So what's your point. The halacha is that pregnant woman do 
> fast on Yom Kippur, they do not get a pass if everything is 
> running as a normal problem-free pregnancy.
> 

Agreed, but given the heightened risk, perhaps if a woman is then
showing some additional factor (in this case a particular craving to
eat) that suggests that she is no longer in the category of a normal,
problem-free pregnancy.


> > And certainly when I was 34 weeks with Yonit, and they 
> needed to do a  very minor medical procedure, which normally would
only 
> have involved,  at most, the practice nurse at my local doctor's
surgery, they 
> > insisted on hospitalising me for two days, on the grounds that 
> > "anything can set off labor at this stage" and they therefore wanted
me in for observation
> > "just in case".   34 weeks, of course today with modern 
> neo-natal units, is not very risky, but I imagine at the time of
chazal it 
> was, as the  lungs are generally not fully formed, and a baby born at
that time 
> > would generally need some form of breathing assistance initially.
> >
> CM responds:
> While what you say is without doubt true, it is off point. 
> What does this have to do with a condition wherein a pregnant 
> woman smells something and as a result is endangered unless she eats?
> 

The link is this:  in a normal problem free pregancy, nobody would have
suggested hospitalisation.  Without being pregnant, nobody would have
suggested hospitalisation, it was the combination of the two that led to
the recommendation for hospitalisation.

Similarly, given the known risk of early labor, given the known risk of
fasting bringing on labor, would not an above average craving for food
(which is presumably causing the woman some distress, it is unlikely to
get as far as a shialas chacham were it not) therefore be logically
considered an indication that the particular woman in question had a
higher risk factor of going into labor than the norm? 

The impression I have been given about distress and miscarriage/early
labor is that traumatic events can trigger miscarriage or early labor
because the body of the woman acts to protect the woman by jettisoning
the fetus in situations of danger.  Similarly, the body acts to protect
against pregnancy in such situations (so that women in famine stricken
areas who are starving are generally not fertile).  Fasting is, by
definition, a traumatic event, as it mimics famine conditions.  However,
one day is not sufficiently traumatic that it necessarily or even in the
vast majority of cases results in miscarriage/labor - ie the risk is
regarded as not sufficient to stop all pregnant women fasting on Yom
Kippur (although it is on the minor fasts).  But given the elevated
risk, it does not seem surprising to me that any woman who was showing
an abnormal reaction to food would thereby be considered to have crossed
the threshold into the sakana category, since arguably pregancy is
already a borderline case.

> Kol Tuv
> Chaim Manaster

Shabbat Shalom

Chana 

> From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
>
> RMFeldman wrote:
>> But wouldn't a rabbinic court rule that this [a bab bron 8 1/2 months after
>> a get --arie]  be a case of a mamzer safek, which is not a mamzer?
>
> MideOraita, you make sense, but miderabbanan, a doubtful mamzer is in the
> worst possible situation, being able to marry neither meyuchasim/ot nor
> mamzerim/ot. See the last chapter of Qidushin, concentrate on shtuki/asufi.
>
> Arie Folger

You are correct that if someone is declared a safek mamzer, they would be 
in a worse situation than a vaadai mamzer.

In real Psak that I have seen or heard of, poskim have taken the safek and 
used it declare that person is a vadai non mamzer.  The posek will look 
for another safek to make it a sfeik sfeika or some other method.

>

Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@panix.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chana Luntz" <chana@kolsassoon.org.uk>
To: "'hankman'" <salman@videotron.ca>; <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: [Avodah] Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell


> R'n CL wrote:
> > > fasting in late pregnancy can bring on labor (supposedly
> > the delivery rate at frum hospitals goes up around Yom Kippur).
> > >
> > CM responds:
> > So what's your point. The halacha is that pregnant woman do
> > fast on Yom Kippur, they do not get a pass if everything is
> > running as a normal problem-free pregnancy.
> >
>
R'n CL wrote:
> Agreed, but given the heightened risk, perhaps if a woman is then
> showing some additional factor (in this case a particular craving to
> eat) that suggests that she is no longer in the category of a normal,
> problem-free pregnancy.
>
>
> > > And certainly when I was 34 weeks with Yonit, and they
> > needed to do a  very minor medical procedure, which normally would
>>> only have involved,  at most, the practice nurse at my local doctor's
> surgery, they
> > > insisted on hospitalising me for two days, on the grounds that
> > > "anything can set off labor at this stage" and they therefore wanted
> me in for observation
> > > "just in case".   34 weeks, of course today with modern
> > neo-natal units, is not very risky, but I imagine at the time of
> chazal it
> > was, as the  lungs are generally not fully formed, and a baby born at
> that time
> > > would generally need some form of breathing assistance initially.
> > >
> > CM responds:
> > While what you say is without doubt true, it is off point.
> > What does this have to do with a condition wherein a pregnant
> > woman smells something and as a result is endangered unless she eats?
> >
> R'n CL responds:
> The link is this:  in a normal problem free pregancy, nobody would have
> suggested hospitalisation.  Without being pregnant, nobody would have
> suggested hospitalisation, it was the combination of the two that led to
> the recommendation for hospitalisation.
>
> Similarly, given the known risk of early labor, given the known risk of
> fasting bringing on labor, would not an above average craving for food
> (which is presumably causing the woman some distress, it is unlikely to
> get as far as a shialas chacham were it not) therefore be logically
> considered an indication that the particular woman in question had a
> higher risk factor of going into labor than the norm?
>
> The impression I have been given about distress and miscarriage/early
> labor is that traumatic events can trigger miscarriage or early labor
> because the body of the woman acts to protect the woman by jettisoning
> the fetus in situations of danger.  Similarly, the body acts to protect
> against pregnancy in such situations (so that women in famine stricken
> areas who are starving are generally not fertile).  Fasting is, by
> definition, a traumatic event, as it mimics famine conditions.  However,
> one day is not sufficiently traumatic that it necessarily or even in the
> vast majority of cases results in miscarriage/labor - ie the risk is
> regarded as not sufficient to stop all pregnant women fasting on Yom
> Kippur (although it is on the minor fasts).  But given the elevated
> risk, it does not seem surprising to me that any woman who was showing
> an abnormal reaction to food would thereby be considered to have crossed
> the threshold into the sakana category, since arguably pregancy is
> already a borderline case.

CM responds:
You write very logically on the subject, but with adr I do not think this is
what is going on in this Mishna. It is discussing a very specific syndrome,
I am just trying to identify what that is in modern terms or if it exists
anymore and nishtane hateva. I can not say for sure, but I imagine if a
pregnant woman was rushed to an emergency ward with the complaint "I just
smelled some pizza, please save my life" she would be laughed out of
emergency. To my mind, there is some disconnect here between modern reality
and the situation of the Mishna. Either there are cases that might fit the
bill as Dr. JB seems to be arguing, or my sense of things is possible and we
must say nishtane hateva.

BTW, it seems to be generally accepted that we already apply the idea of
nishtane hateva wrt to the menstrual cycle of modern women as different from
that in the time of chazal.

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster

The central topic of Parashat Ki-Tavo is the blessings and curses. These blessings and curses involve the establishment of a treaty between Israel and the A-mighty:  [29:11-12] 

The following is fascinating!

The curses in chapter 28 contain 676 letters (in the Hebrew text). The word "ra-ot" (reish,ayin,vov,tof) which can mean "evil occurrences" has the value of 676.  Now note that G-d's holy Name, HaShem, has the value of 26, and 26 squared is 676.  

The hidden meaning (according to the Itture Torah, Vol. Vl, p.165) is: In this coming week's portion, the Torah threatens with raot, but from all of them HaShem will rescue us. After realizing the above, I gained an addition insight. As we know, any gift from G-d can be used for good or for evil. When used for evil we have the word "ra-ot." However, when utilized for good, we can take the same letters: (reish, ayin, vov,tof) and we now have "ray-ut" or "friendship." 

The other fascinating lesson is a commentary by the Ari regarding the pasuk in Devarim: "Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse." [11:26]  Well, the Ari questioned this: "But there is no curse in the heavenly realm." He then explained it so: Take the word k'lalah, "curse," and write it backwards. Then instead of kuf lamed lamed hay, we have hay lamed lamed kuf, which gives us hallel (praise) kuf. This simply means that if we say 100 (kuf) benedictions that praise (hallel) the A-mighty, then any curse (against us) is reversed and converted into a blessing. 

You will also note that if you rearrange the English word "curse" by just switching the last two letters, you have "cures." So if we sincerely praise the Almighty, the "curse" becomes the "cures" for all ills.

Richard Wolberg
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> > However, one day is not sufficiently traumatic that it
> > necessarily or 
> > even in the vast majority of cases results in 
> miscarriage/labor - ie
> > the risk is regarded as not sufficient to stop all pregnant women
> > fasting on Yom Kippur (although it is on the minor fasts).  
> But given
> > the elevated risk, it does not seem surprising to me that any woman
> > who was showing an abnormal reaction to food would thereby be 
> > considered to have crossed the threshold into the sakana category, 
> > since arguably pregancy is already a borderline case.
> 
> CM responds:
> You write very logically on the subject, but with adr I do
> not think this is what is going on in this Mishna. It is 
> discussing a very specific syndrome,

The Mishna says merely "a pregnant woman who smelled"  (with the
explanation given by Rashi that she smelled the smell of a food and
desired it and if they don't give it to her she will be in danger).  How
do you know that this is necessarily a specific syndrome?  Why can you
not read it as being effecitvely  "A pregnant woman even if she smelled"
- ie even something so minor as to smell food and to have a strong
desire for it it is enough in a pregnant woman to require breaking her
fast. You don't need to be at the point of being rushed to the emergency
ward for a state of sakana to exist.  For example, a woman is deemed in
a heightened state of sakana for the first three days of childbirth and
yet in the normal course, a woman will have been discharged from
hospital long before then (the norm in England is after six hours, if
there are no complications).  Note that a secular doctors with limited
exposure to Judaism tend to be horrified at the idea of a pregnant woman
not eating or drinking anything for 25 hours.  We know that it is OK, as
pregnant women have been doing this for millenia, but caution when the
pregnancy is manfesting itself in any way different from the norm does
not seem odd in light of current medical practice.

> BTW, it seems to be generally accepted that we already apply
> the idea of nishtane hateva wrt to the menstrual cycle of 
> modern women as different from that in the time of chazal.

I don't know that this is "generally accepted".  I have heard a number
of poskim say that it is not nishtane hateva, but better nutrition that
has led to changes, and that if you look at (women in Jerusalem 50 years
ago/women in poor parts of Africa) their cycle is much more consistent
with that described by Chazal.  Depends who you talk to I guess.


> 
> Kol tuv
> 
> Chaim Manaster
> 

Regards

Chana

> 

> > CM wrote:
> > You write very logically on the subject, but with adr I do
> > not think this is what is going on in this Mishna. It is
> > discussing a very specific syndrome,
>

R'n CL responds:
> The Mishna says merely "a pregnant woman who smelled"  (with the
> explanation given by Rashi that she smelled the smell of a food and
> desired it and if they don't give it to her she will be in danger).  How
> do you know that this is necessarily a specific syndrome?  Why can you
> not read it as being effecitvely  "A pregnant woman even if she smelled"
> - ie even something so minor as to smell food and to have a strong
> desire for it it is enough in a pregnant woman to require breaking her
> fast.

CM responds:
Because everybody (including pregnant woman) smell all sorts of things all
day long. You can not shut off your sense of smell (unless you have a cold
with a blocked nose :-). So this would mean all pregnant women get a pass.
The mishna is talking about a circumstance where the risk of sakana is
raised above this normal everyday smell level if not satiated.

R'n CL continues:
>You don't need to be at the point of being rushed to the emergency
> ward for a state of sakana to exist.

CM responds:
Of course not, nor do I ever imply that. Even if there is a sfaik, sfaik,
sfaika of pikuach nefesh  that is enough, ie, even a low probability of risk
to life is enough. As you say, "You don't need to be at the point of being
rushed to the emergency ward for a state of sakana to exist." But
nevertheless, you do need for there to be some risk of pikuach nefesh to
exist as a resuilt of the unsatiated smell.

CM wrote:
> > BTW, it seems to be generally accepted that we already apply
> > the idea of nishtane hateva wrt to the menstrual cycle of
> > modern women as different from that in the time of chazal.
>
R'n CL responded:
> I don't know that this is "generally accepted".  I have heard a number
> of poskim say that it is not nishtane hateva, but better nutrition that
> has led to changes, and that if you look at (women in Jerusalem 50 years
> ago/women in poor parts of Africa) their cycle is much more consistent
> with that described by Chazal.  Depends who you talk to I guess.

CM responds:
I agree. Let me rephrase. Most will agree that the facts on the ground today
are different than they were in the time of Chazal. Some ascribe this to
nishtane hateva, while others ascribe this to better nutrition in modern
times.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster

I heard that there is a teshuva by Rav Moshe Feinstein that the child 
of a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother can be encouraged to 
convert.  Does anyone know where I could find this teshuva?  What are 
the halachic sources for this approach?

Thank you,
Miryam Brand


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