Avodah Mailing List

Volume 18: Number 10

Thu, 31 Aug 2006

• 1. Re: Putting oneself in danger (T6...@aol.com)
• 2. Re: Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell (Dr. Josh Backon)
• 3. Re: [Areivim] Haaretz: Mamzeirim in Israel (Moshe Feldman)
• 4. Re: Putting oneself in danger (hankman)
• 5. Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell (Chana Luntz)
• 6. Re: Pregnant women's sakana brought on by sense of smell (hankman)

 
 
In a message dated 8/31/2006 2:18:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
salman@videotron.ca writes:


 
 
R' Chaim Manaster wrote:
>>....They
surrounded them on  four sides. R. Nosson says they left the fourth side
open "kedai  sheyivrechu," so that they c[s]hould run away. He asks why
should R.  Nosson allow them to get away? [gave a long answer]<<
 





 

.
TK: >>Please excuse me if I'm saying something so obvious that of  /course/ 
you already knew this, but -- the pshat is, if you don't allow a  defeated 
enemy an escape route, you corner him and force him to fight to the  death -- thus 
leading to unnecessary deaths among your own  men.<<



CM:  >>Sure, but that was not my point. My point was the  "[gave a long 
answer]" that you seem to have ignored.<< 
.
I didn't /ignore/ your long answer, I responded that I didn't see the need  
for it, since there was a simpler and more obvious explanation.  You now  
respond that not everyone agrees with the simple explanation -- well, OK.   But 
what you probably should have done in the first place is say what problems  in 
the simple explanation necessitated a less obvious and more convoluted  
explanation.  


--Toby  Katz
=============

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At 03:15 AM 8/31/2006 -0400, hankman wrote:
>Thank you for your response, but from the nature of your response I gather
>that this was quite a stretch and that you were grasping at straws in order
>to interpret divrei chazal. I say this because instead of simply quoting any
>standard medical text on diseases and their description, you chose to search
>out some far flung research journals (i.e., not things that are well known



You asked for the **normal** situation (pregnant woman). I didn't discuss the
pathophysiology of hyperosmia [uncinate gyrus epilepsy, migraine,
adrenocortical
insufficiency, very rare cases of drug reaction).

The gemara in Yoma (and the Shulchan Aruch ORACH CHAYIM 617:2) discuss the
case of a pregnant woman on Yom Kippur.


>to every medical practitioner for the last 2000 years, things not well
>proven and accepted as fact but still experimental and being researched and
>based on the research you cite some of which is not accepted by all and in
>dispute). You cite a study on rabbits and another on mother's diet and


Excuse me ? I provided the LATEST research on the subject [references below]
That very recent research has debunked the theory that pregnant women are more
sensitive to odors has to be taken into consideration by poskim. And I showed
that the latest research on the fetus being sensitive to odors shows that
Rashi
was 101% correct (950 years ago).


>neonates and the effect on their sense of smell, but we are discussing
>humans in utero. Furthermore, the research you cite (based on their titles,
>I have not read them, please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption
>from the titles) does not refer to any danger to life, immediate or
>otherwise, based on disregarding the desire brought on by the smell.
>




There is a neuropsychiatric component to hyperosmia and I mentioned this.
But you have it farblondjet: it's not that the odor causes the uncontrollable
desire to eat; it's the histrionic personality of other medical condition that
sensitizes the organism to the odor. 


Could that be considered "life threatening" ? The gemara never hints at this.
Indeed, anything "life threatening" would engender the concept of "pikuach
nefesh"
so your question is meaningless. It could, however, be in the category of
"ahnus"
where the person has an uncontrollable desire brought about by other
factors.



>Also, Bulimia Nervosa is a condition where at best, the time for risk to
>life is measured in years or decades, not the same day.


You're aqain bringing in a strawman argument since NO ONE refers to or
discusses
any immediate risk let alone pikuach nefesh.


>
>If I am wrong in any of my above assertions, I will gladly defer to you as I
>am only a lay person in these matters.
>


You should make like Greyhound and leave the driving to us :-)

Reread all the references I provided below.

>Kol Tuv
>
>Chaim Manaster
>
>
>
>> R. Chaim Manaster asked:
>> >Any medical types on the list? Is there any syndrome known to modern
>>
>....
>Dr. JB responded:
>> There may be enhanced olfactory sensitivity in bulimia [what may be what
>> the gemara
>> calls "bulmus"]. There is olfactory dysfunction in neuropsychiatric
>> disorder (Martzke JS,
>> Kopala LC, Good KP. Olfactory dysfunction in neuropsychiatric disorders:
>> review
>> and methodological considerations. Biol Psychiatry. 1997 Oct
>> 15;42(8):721-32).
>>
>CM wrote:
>> >The closest I can come up with (but no cigar) is the strange eating
>desires
>> >of women when pregnant, I guess brought on by all the hormonal changes
>> brought
>> >on by pregnancy, (I assume this is true and not fiction), as well as
>morning
>> >sickness. But I doubt these conditions can put the mother in significant
>> danger?
>>
>>
>Dr. JB responded:
>> The hypothesis that there is enhanced olfactory sensitivity in pregnant
>> women has
>> been recently debunked (Swallow BL, Lindow SW, Aye M, Masson EA, Alasalvar
>C,
>> Quantick P, Hanna J. Smell perception during early pregnancy: no evidence
>> of an
>> adaptive mechanism. BJOG. 2005 Jan;112(1):57-62).
>>
>CM wrote:
>> >Rashi seems to learn that the fetus smells the odor. Does a fetus in
>> utero  have
>> >a sense of smell? Can the odor wafting about in the atmosphere get
>through
>> all the
>> >layers to reach the fetus even if it has a developed sense of smell? I
>> imagine,
>> >it would not? Anyone who knows? I think some are maghia rashi so that it
>> is the mother
>> >who smells the odor, not the fetus?
>>
>Dr. JB responded:
>> The fetus may be sensitive to certain odors. RASHI was 100% correct.
>....
>> Semke E, Distel H, Hudson R. Specific enhancement of olfactory receptor
>> sensitivity associated with foetal learning of food odors in the rabbit.
>> Naturwissenschaften. 1995 Mar;82(3):148-9.
>>
>> Schaal B, Marlier L, Soussignan R. Human foetuses learn odours from their
>> pregnant
>> mother's diet. Chem Senses. 2000 Dec;25(6):729-37.
>>
>> Olfactory responsiveness was assessed in 24 neonates born to mothers who
>> had or had
>> not consumed anise flavour during pregnancy. Both groups of infants were
>> followed-up
>> for behavioural markers of attraction and aversion when exposed to anise
>> odour and a
>> control odour immediately after birth and on day 4. Infants born to
>> anise-consuming
>> mothers evinced a stable preference for anise odour over this period,
>> whereas those
>> born to anise non-consuming mothers displayed aversion or neutral
>> responses. This
>> study provides the first clear evidence that through their diet human
>mothers
>> influence the hedonic polarity of their neonates' initial olfactory
>responses.
>> The findings have potential implications for the early mother-to-infant
>> transmission of chemosensory information relative to food and addictive
>> products.
>>
>>
>> Schaal B, Marlier L, Soussignan R. Olfactory function in the human fetus:
>> evidence
>> from selective neonatal responsiveness to the odor of amniotic fluid.
>Behav
>> Neurosci.
>> 1998 Dec;112(6):1438-49.
>> ===================================================
>>
>> KT
>>
>> Josh
>
>
>
>
>-- 


Josh

On 8/30/06, Ken Bloom <kbloom@gmail.com> wrote on Areivim:
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 03:45:01PM +0300, Moshe Feldman wrote:
> > why would there be a
> > fear that a rabbinic court would rule that a baby born 8 months and 2
> > weeks after the Get would be a mamzer?
>
> Ordinarly it takes 9 months until a baby is born. If this is the case,
> and Y. is the girl's father then she's a mamzeret. Now it's possible
> that she was born early (early enough) that it's not the result of an
> adulterous union as she was already divorced, but I can understand why
> there would be a fear.

But wouldn't a rabbinic court rule that this be a case of a mamzer
safek, which is not a mamzer?

(It's quite possible that the secular court never bothered consulting
with rabbanim.)

Kol tuv,
Moshe

  R' Chaim Manaster wrote:
  >>In parshas Matos I noticed a vort in Torah Lodas from the Panim Yafos
  that does clair such shailos. The Yalkut on Vayitzbu al Midyan ... They
  surrounded them on four sides. R. Nosson says they left the fourth side
  open "kedai sheyivrechu," so that they c[s]hould run away. He asks why
  should R. Nosson allow them to get away? [gave a long answer]<<

  R'n TK responded:
  .
  Please excuse me if I'm saying something so obvious that of /course/ you already knew this, but -- the pshat is, if you don't allow a defeated enemy an escape route, you corner him and force him to fight to the death -- thus leading to unnecessary deaths among your own men.


  --Toby Katz
  ============


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  CM responds:

  Sure, but that was not my point. My point was the "[gave a long answer]" that you seem to have ignored.

  BTW, there is an equally obvious alternative to the reason you regard as pashut. First let me say that the reason you give is explicit in the Torah Temimah on this pasuk. However, if you look in the Rambam who paskans like R. Nosson in H. Melochim P6H7, you will find the Radvaz who takes a different tack in explanation. He asserts that the the reason is "vekol zeh midarkai hatorah asher kol nisivoseha shalom"

  Furthermore, the Tana Kama who argues with R. Nosson, holds that you do surround the enemy on all four sides not withstanding the logic you propose.

  KolTuv

  Chaim Manaster


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> Any medical types on the list? Is there any syndrome known to 
> modern medicine that sounds like the Mishna on Yoma 82a about 
> a pregnant woman who may eat on Yom Kippur to satisfy a 
> desire brought on by an aroma of food, because she would 
> otherwise be in a sakana if the desire is not satisfied.

I am by no means a medical type, but I have certainly been told that
fasting in late pregnancy can bring on labor (supposedly the delivery
rate at frum hospitals goes up around Yom Kippur).

And certainly when I was 34 weeks with Yonit, and they needed to do a
very minor medical procedure, which normally would only have involved,
at most, the practice nurse at my local doctor's surgery, they insisted
on hospitalising me for two days, on the grounds that "anything can set
off labor at this stage" and they therefore wanted me in for observation
"just in case".   34 weeks, of course today with modern neo-natal units,
is not very risky, but I imagine at the time of chazal it was, as the
lungs are generally not fully formed, and a baby born at that time would
generally need some form of breathing assistance initially.

I assume that the Mishna must be talking about middle to late rather
than early pregnancy, given that a pregnancy is not regarded as
established until three months (at least for nida purposes).

> Kol Tuv
> 
> Chaim Manaster

Regards

Chana

Thank you for your response, but from the nature of your response I gather that this was quite a stretch and that you were grasping at straws in order to interpret divrei chazal. I say this because instead of simply quoting any standard medical text on diseases and their description, you chose to search out some far flung research journals (i.e., not things that are well known to every medical practitioner for the last 2000 years, things not well proven and accepted as fact but still experimental and being researched and based on the research you cite some of which is not accepted by all and in dispute). You cite a study on rabbits and another on mother's diet and neonates and the effect on their sense of smell, but we are discussing humans in utero. Furthermore, the research you cite (based on their titles, I have not read them, please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption from the titles) does not refer to any danger to life, immediate or otherwise, based on disregard
 ing the 
 desire brought on by the smell. 

Also, Bulimia Nervosa is a condition where at best, the time for risk to life is measured in years or decades, not the same day.

If I am wrong in any of my above assertions, I will gladly defer to you as I am only a lay person in these matters.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster



> R. Chaim Manaster asked:
> >Any medical types on the list? Is there any syndrome known to modern
> 
.... 
Dr. JB responded: 
> There may be enhanced olfactory sensitivity in bulimia [what may be what
> the gemara 
> calls "bulmus"]. There is olfactory dysfunction in neuropsychiatric
> disorder (Martzke JS,
> Kopala LC, Good KP. Olfactory dysfunction in neuropsychiatric disorders:
> review
> and methodological considerations. Biol Psychiatry. 1997 Oct
> 15;42(8):721-32).
> 
CM wrote: 
> >The closest I can come up with (but no cigar) is the strange eating desires
> >of women when pregnant, I guess brought on by all the hormonal changes
> brought
> >on by pregnancy, (I assume this is true and not fiction), as well as morning
> >sickness. But I doubt these conditions can put the mother in significant
> danger?
> 
> 
Dr. JB responded: 
> The hypothesis that there is enhanced olfactory sensitivity in pregnant
> women has
> been recently debunked (Swallow BL, Lindow SW, Aye M, Masson EA, Alasalvar C,
> Quantick P, Hanna J. Smell perception during early pregnancy: no evidence
> of an
> adaptive mechanism. BJOG. 2005 Jan;112(1):57-62). 
> 
CM wrote:
> >Rashi seems to learn that the fetus smells the odor. Does a fetus in
> utero  have
> >a sense of smell? Can the odor wafting about in the atmosphere get through
> all the
> >layers to reach the fetus even if it has a developed sense of smell? I
> imagine,
> >it would not? Anyone who knows? I think some are maghia rashi so that it
> is the mother
> >who smells the odor, not the fetus?
> 
Dr. JB responded:
> The fetus may be sensitive to certain odors. RASHI was 100% correct.
....
> Semke E, Distel H, Hudson R. Specific enhancement of olfactory receptor
> sensitivity associated with foetal learning of food odors in the rabbit. 
> Naturwissenschaften. 1995 Mar;82(3):148-9.  
>   
> Schaal B, Marlier L, Soussignan R. Human foetuses learn odours from their
> pregnant
> mother's diet. Chem Senses. 2000 Dec;25(6):729-37.
> 
> Olfactory responsiveness was assessed in 24 neonates born to mothers who
> had or had
> not consumed anise flavour during pregnancy. Both groups of infants were
> followed-up
> for behavioural markers of attraction and aversion when exposed to anise
> odour and a
> control odour immediately after birth and on day 4. Infants born to
> anise-consuming
> mothers evinced a stable preference for anise odour over this period,
> whereas those
> born to anise non-consuming mothers displayed aversion or neutral
> responses. This
> study provides the first clear evidence that through their diet human mothers
> influence the hedonic polarity of their neonates' initial olfactory responses.
> The findings have potential implications for the early mother-to-infant
> transmission of chemosensory information relative to food and addictive
> products.
> 
>   
> Schaal B, Marlier L, Soussignan R. Olfactory function in the human fetus:
> evidence
> from selective neonatal responsiveness to the odor of amniotic fluid. Behav
> Neurosci.
> 1998 Dec;112(6):1438-49.
> ===================================================
> 
> KT
> 
> Josh
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